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shop selling my gun

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    Handed a shotgun in to a shop today to be sold they gave me a letter to say that its in their possession in case I get a call from police

    Do I have to send a copy of this letter to the police as well

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    Handed a shotgun in to a shop today to be sold they gave me a letter to say that its in their possession in case I get a call from police

    Do I have to send a copy of this letter to the police as well

    Cheers Bud

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    I will admit to being unsure. I would have thought it would do no harm to double check with your FEO.

    Who won't have a clue and will just come out with a make it up as you go along statement.

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    No you don't have to inform the police.

     

    The home office guidance on firearms law 2016 states :-

     

    Section 33 of the 1997 Act requires that, within seven days of the transaction, the transferor and transferee must send, electronically (for example, by e-mail or fax) or by recorded or special delivery, notification to the chief officers of police who issued their own certificates. The transferor is the person who originally possessed the gun, and the transferee is the recipient (and it is the transferor who must write the details of the gun and its transfer onto the certificate of the transferee). The notice of the transaction must contain a description of the firearm or shotgun (including any identification number), state the nature of the transaction and give the name and address of the other person concerned.

     

    A firearm or shotgun placed with a registered firearms dealer or auctioneer for sale or return is not regarded as a transfer. Notification is only required once the transfer is complete when all three parties notify the police.

     

    As the transferor may not know the name of the ultimate transferee, it is sufficient for the transferor only to notify the police of disposal to the dealer or auctioneer.

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    No you don't have to inform the police.

     

    The home office guidance on firearms law 2016 states :-

     

    Section 33 of the 1997 Act requires that, within seven days of the transaction, the transferor and transferee must send, electronically (for example, by e-mail or fax) or by recorded or special delivery, notification to the chief officers of police who issued their own certificates. The transferor is the person who originally possessed the gun, and the transferee is the recipient (and it is the transferor who must write the details of the gun and its transfer onto the certificate of the transferee). The notice of the transaction must contain a description of the firearm or shotgun (including any identification number), state the nature of the transaction and give the name and address of the other person concerned.

     

    A firearm or shotgun placed with a registered firearms dealer or auctioneer for sale or return is not regarded as a transfer. Notification is only required once the transfer is complete when all three parties notify the police.

     

    As the transferor may not know the name of the ultimate transferee, it is sufficient for the transferor only to notify the police of disposal to the dealer or auctioneer.

     

    It is a very grey area make sure with your Constabulary for a firearm if you enter in a auction and I would say Gun Shop would be the same and it does not sell , to have it returned you must apply for a variation for it to return to your certificate

    Feltwad

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    It is a very grey area make sure with your Constabulary for a firearm if you enter in a auction and I would say Gun Shop would be the same and it does not sell , to have it returned you must apply for a variation for it to return to your certificate

    Feltwad

     

    While I accept the home office guidance is not law, the current Home Office guidance to Chief Constables makes it quite clear and not a grey area at all for sale or return. “A firearm or shotgun placed with a registered firearms dealer or auctioneer for sale or return is not regarded as a transfer. Notification is only required once the transfer is complete when all three parties notify the police.”

     

    That’s their exact wording not mine.

    Therefore, if a constabulary is requiring you to do anything different it is against current home office guidance and I would be asking them why and if they were trying to prosecute it’s a question the Judge would be asking on my behalf.

     

    As the firearm or shotgun remains on your certificate it hasn’t been removed why would you have to apply for anything as no one has notified them of any change. Therefore, I’m not too sure why you would need to apply for a variation for it to return to your certificate as it hasn’t left it. Your Firearm will have been logged on their register but as it is not classed as a transfer they don’t have to inform the police just keep a record of it coming in then going back out to you no transfer for 5 years. The same as if it went for repair.

     

    If the Auction house or dealer require you to transfer it to them then that’s their own terms of business not a requirement of the law. In that case yes you inform the Chief Constable you have transferred it to them and you are required to apply for a variation to return it to your certificate when they transfer it back to you. Not too sure why they would do that but still they are entitled to do business that way if they so wish.

     

    In the op’s case he has a letter saying it’s with them, if it was transferred he wouldn’t have that letter he would have been given a letter informing the chief Constable of the transfer and been told to send it to his local firearms unit.

    Edited by timps

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    I am only quoting what happened to me a year ago . I entered the firearm a muzzle loading pistol in a london auction and notified my Constabulary that. The firearm did not sell so it was returned to me I then notified my Constabulary that it had been return to be told that I was the owner of an illegal weapon although it was still on my Firearms certificate and I should have applied for a variation to have it returned . I had to report to my Constabulary Head quarters at once to sort the matter out which cost me £20

    Feltwad

    Edited by Feltwad

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    I am only quoting what happened to me a year ago . I entered the firearm a muzzle loading pistol in a london auction and notified my Constabulary that. The firearm did not sell so it was returned to me I then notified my Constabulary that it had been return to be told that I was the owner of an illegal weapon although it was still on my Firearms certificate and I should have applied for a variation to have it returned . I had to report to my Constabulary Head quarters at once to sort the matter out which cost me £20

    Feltwad

     

    You notified them of the transfer to the auction even though it wasn't sold, that’s where the problem started. Once you notify them they assume it’s a transferred to a new owner and remove it from your certificate at their end.

     

    The guidance states ” As the transferor may not know the name of the ultimate transferee, it is sufficient for the transferor only to notify the police of disposal to the dealer or auctioneer. “

    Hence as soon as you informed them it was considered transferred and not sale or return.

     

    Seeing as it is not necessary to send in your certificate to be altered for such notifications unless you wish to apply for the authority to replace the firearm you have transferred all was ok and you were none the wiser.

     

    Once you informed them you had got it back that’s where your problems arise, even though it’s the same gun you need to apply for a variation to put it back on just as if you wanted to replace it with a different one.

     

    If you hadn’t informed them of the transfer to the auction in the first place all would have been above board and within the law. If the auction house had known that you had informed your constabulary of the transfer they wouldn't have given the gun back without the variation in place.

     

    They ultimately were treating it as sale or return you were treating it as transfer as was your constabulary hence the trip to head quarters to sort it out.

    Edited by timps

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    You notified them of the transfer to the auction even though it wasn't sold, that’s where the problem started. Once you notify them they assume it’s a transferred to a new owner and remove it from your certificate at their end.

     

    The guidance states ” As the transferor may not know the name of the ultimate transferee, it is sufficient for the transferor only to notify the police of disposal to the dealer or auctioneer. “

    Hence as soon as you informed them it was considered transferred and not sale or return.

     

    Seeing as it is not necessary to send in your certificate to be altered for such notifications unless you wish to apply for the authority to replace the firearm you have transferred all was ok and you were none the wiser.

     

    Once you informed them you had got it back that’s where your problems arise, even though it’s the same gun you need to apply for a variation to put it back on just as if you wanted to replace it with a different one.

     

    If you hadn’t informed them of the transfer to the auction in the first place all would have been above board and within the law. If the auction house had known that you had informed your constabulary of the transfer they wouldn't have given the gun back without the variation in place.

     

    They ultimately were treating it as sale or return you were treating it as transfer as was your constabulary hence the trip to head quarters to sort it out.

     

    So that means that if I had not notified my Constabulary that the gun was at auction and it had sold so when the buyer entered it on his certificate and the number register to me then I would have been guilty of not notifying them that I had sent the gun to auction, it seems crazy too me which can in knowingly get you into trouble.

    Feltwad

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    Just do what I did when I packed in shooting.Took all my rifles and shotgun too shop.Told them to flog them and we agreed they take a commision.

    I hand delivered a letter that day to licencing with the surrender of my certs.That was me done,no messing about trying to sell guns.

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    So that means that if I had not notified my Constabulary that the gun was at auction and it had sold so when the buyer entered it on his certificate and the number register to me then I would have been guilty of not notifying them that I had sent the gun to auction, it seems crazy too me which can in knowingly get you into trouble.

    Feltwad

    You notified them too early you only notify them once its sold not before as you did.

     

    Once you notify your force, new owner notifies their force auction house(rfd) notifies buyers force.

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    So that means that if I had not notified my Constabulary that the gun was at auction and it had sold so when the buyer entered it on his certificate and the number register to me then I would have been guilty of not notifying them that I had sent the gun to auction, it seems crazy too me which can in knowingly get you into trouble.

    Feltwad

    You have 7 days to notify the police of the transaction to the third party who bought the gun.

     

    Once the gun is sold and possession is taken by the third party and not before is the date the 7 days start from.

     

    The auction house informs you of the sale, you inform the police it's gone to the auction house, as long as you all do that within 7 days of the transaction no one has committed an offence.

     

    It doesn't matter what order you inform the police. If your letter to the police arrives last and the third party or auction house first it doesn't matter as long as they all arrive within 7 days of the actual transfer.

     

    There is no requirement in the firearms act to notify the police if the gun is at an RFD or auction house (2nd party) and no transfer has taken place. If the gun has not been sold and taken into possession by a third party and you intend sale or return then no transfer has ever taken place.

     

    What you can't do is what you did by transferring the gun to the auction house and not sending your license in for variation to get it back. As you found out to your cost.

     

    The guidelines are quite clear.

    Edited by timps

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    You have 7 days to notify the police of the transaction to the third party who bought the gun.

     

    Once the gun is sold and possession is taken by the third party and not before is the date the 7 days start from.

     

    The auction house informs you of the sale, you inform the police it's gone to the auction house, as long as you all do that within 7 days of the transaction no one has committed an offence.

     

    It doesn't matter what order you inform the police. If your letter to the police arrives last and the third party or auction house first it doesn't matter as long as they all arrive within 7 days of the actual transfer.

     

    There is no requirement in the firearms act to notify the police if the gun is at an RFD or auction house (2nd party) and no transfer has taken place. If the gun has not been sold and taken into possession by a third party and you intend sale or return then no transfer has ever taken place.

     

    What you can't do is what you did by transferring the gun to the auction house and not sending your license in for variation to get it back. As you found out to your cost.

     

    The guidelines are quite clear.

     

    I have held a Firearms Certificate for almost 60 years so you learn something every day ,thanks for that info I will know better if there is another time .

    Feltwad

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    I have sold a few through my local rfd.each time I have transfered them to him and notified the firearms dept.then once sold I received a cheque and that was an end to it.if you do not transfer the gun to the rfd's books how can he legally sell it and complete the buyers certificate as in law nobody can sell a gun on if they are not the registered keeper.

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    You have to transfer it to the rfds log as soon as it is left with him same as when he repairs it or stores it etc. You don't remove it from you license until you give up ownership, if you do especially with a section 1 it's a liciencing pain in the bottom.

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    I have sold a few through my local rfd.each time I have transfered them to him and notified the firearms dept.then once sold I received a cheque and that was an end to it.if you do not transfer the gun to the rfd's books how can he legally sell it and complete the buyers certificate as in law nobody can sell a gun on if they are not the registered keeper.

     

    Any gun left with an RFD will have been logged on their register the moment it's left with them. However it is not classed as a permanent transfer if it's sale or return.

     

    For return back to owner they dont have to inform the police just keep a record of it coming in then going back out to you on the their register, no transfer. They keep a record of this for 5 years but do not inform the police, exactly the same as if it went for repair or storage.

     

    If it sells that's classed as transfer now they have to inform the police of change of ownership. As it's already entered on their register they can legally do this.

     

    If the gun sells there's no issue if you have already told the police it's transferred, however, if you want the gun returned that's when the trouble starts.

     

    You have informed the police the gun has gone to the RFD but RFD won't inform the police it's gone back to you. Also unless you tell the RFD what you have done they won't fill out your licence correctly.

     

    For section 1 you have to send your license back to have the gun removed so the RFD can put it back on again. For shotguns the RFD has to fill out your certificate with the guns details again.

     

    As I have said previously the home office guidance is quite clear if you intend to get the gun back if it doesn't sell. However if you don't want the gun back it's not sale or return so informing the police the moment it's gone to the RFD is ok.

     

    Whatever you do if you have informed the police then tell the RFD so they can do the correct paperwork if you wish to get the gun back.

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    Any gun left with an RFD will have been logged on their register the moment it's left with them. However it is not classed as a permanent transfer if it's sale or return.

     

    For return back to owner they dont have to inform the police just keep a record of it coming in then going back out to you on the their register, no transfer. They keep a record of this for 5 years but do not inform the police, exactly the same as if it went for repair or storage.

     

    If it sells that's classed as transfer now they have to inform the police of change of ownership. As it's already entered on their register they can legally do this.

     

    If the gun sells there's no issue if you have already told the police it's transferred, however, if you want the gun returned that's when the trouble starts.

     

    You have informed the police the gun has gone to the RFD but RFD won't inform the police it's gone back to you. Also unless you tell the RFD what you have done they won't fill out your licence correctly.

     

    For section 1 you have to send your license back to have the gun removed so the RFD can put it back on again. For shotguns the RFD has to fill out your certificate with the guns details again.

     

    As I have said previously the home office guidance is quite clear if you intend to get the gun back if it doesn't sell. However if you don't want the gun back it's not sale or return so informing the police the moment it's gone to the RFD is ok.

     

    Whatever you do if you have informed the police then tell the RFD so they can do the correct paperwork if you wish to get the gun back.

     

    All seems very complicated the way you describe.as I said when I decide to sell a gun thats it.i use my local dealer to sell them as I cannot be bothered to deal with some of the clowns that turn out to look at them.my guns will always sell as they are all in excellent condition.also the rfd can offer finance on the sale which I can't.so opens up the customer Base.he gives me a receipt for the gun as sold to him.he also gives me a preprinted notification for the police.the last one I sold went for just under 7k and was sold to another rfd to fill a customer order.i was just explaining how I use a dealer to sell for me not saying how it should or should not be done.i drop the gun off and the next thing I am concerned with is when the cheque arrives once sold.however long that takes.

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