iano Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 So always live. Didn't know this and not sure id say its a safe practice In a way it makes some sense - every weapon is a loaded weapon and will always be. That has an impact in how they are viewed /handled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Funker Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) So always live. Didn't know this and not sure id say its a safe practice I'm only answering from my experience, but I'm fairly sure most forces will be the same. Yes it does sound unsafe but the safest place for a gun to be loaded or unloaded is in an armoury pointing into a firing tube. The alternative is clearing weapons after a job either into a car foot well (which I know has happened in the past) or a make safe bag somewhere out in the public domain not in an armoury. Then the opposite is as the job is breaking getting weapons out of the safe and making them ready while on a blue light run, while map reading, listening to the radio ect , not safe (I know this used to happen too) Making everything ready in the armoury then locking it away in the safe is the only option I think, you just have to remember not to place the safety to fire and pull the trigger while it's pointing at your foot Edited September 21, 2017 by Muddy Funker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Its not a massive surprise, Not sure the point of the post. I have seen and herd of enough at my place of work from MDP & MPGS that makes me think a large amount of them I wouldn't want to see with anything other than a nurf gun. You can train someone time and time again but human error and sloppiness will creep in from time to time and just more so with some individuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iano Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 you just have to remember not to place the safety to fire and pull the trigger while it's pointing at your foot Unless you want some medical leave! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted September 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Because squaddies never have NDs? Nope, it goes back in the safe as is. Add it to the list of **** ups by armed officers, which probably hardly registers on the scale compared to the amount of times they load/unload and get deployed. Comparing it to civilian gun owners is a ridiculous comparison, there are probably licence holders that shoot a few times every 5 years, compared to officers loading and unloading multiple guns every time they are at work. An occasional gun handler is far more likely to have an accident than someone who handles a gun day in day out, comparing the two does nothing but emphasise that point! That was the reason for the comparison! How is that ridiculous? Or have I misunderstood your comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Exactly. I would sincerely hope that when a firearms officer is on "active duty" attending an incident where he may be called upon to discharge his firearm, he would have a round in the chamber. Not to do so would make the whole purpose of him being there futile. We are all human and I'm afraid humans have accidents. With you there 100 % most people on here are to holier than though to ever do anything wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) Nothing new. As i have said before the MET even managed more N/Ds than the PSNI that are armed on and off duty. Armed Metropolitan Police officers have accidentally fired weapons 125 times in the last five years. Three officers have been injured by their weapons since 2010 in incidents that average out at one a fortnight. CCIDENTAL DISCHARGE LEAGUE TABLE: Metropolitan Police 56 Northern Ireland 31 Bedfordshire 3 Devon and Cornwall 2 Lincolnshire Police 2 Edited September 21, 2017 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 No expert on automatic weapons but does the gun not need cocking to load a round into the chamber, thus making the gun loaded? Its loaded when a loaded magazine is in firearm, it is ready when a round in the chamber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 See licenced gun holders daily saw squadies for 15 years both groups have people I'm not keen on being near with a gun. Man not the group is safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Because squaddies never have NDs? Nope, it goes back in the safe as is. Add it to the list of **** ups by armed officers, which probably hardly registers on the scale compared to the amount of times they load/unload and get deployed. Comparing it to civilian gun owners is a ridiculous comparison, there are probably licence holders that shoot a few times every 5 years, compared to officers loading and unloading multiple guns every time they are at work. Why do they even have them in a safe, hardly ready for immediate use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) Well Apparently there's no such thing as a accidentall discharge only bad /sloppy/careless gun handleing by civilians Except it appears when a armed officer shoots his own foot It becomes a accidental discharge Hopefully he won't get full paid sick leave or a early pension through carelessly disabling his self All the best Of Edit According to the statistics once a fortnight has become the norm for this to happen Can't help thinking there's either a touch of complacency or slight problem with the training Edited September 21, 2017 by Old farrier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Well Apparently there's no such thing as a accidentall discharge only bad /sloppy/careless gun handleing Except it appears when a armed officer shoots his own foot Hopefully he won't get full paid sick leave or a early pension through carelessly disabling his self All the best Of Still an accident though.... if a scaffolder fell and ended up a tetro would it be his fault? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Still an accident though.... if a scaffolder fell and ended up a tetro would it be his fault? Yes , he should have been wearing the correct PPE, ie. a fall restraint harness, and could be in trouble with HSE when they investigate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) Still an accident though.... if a scaffolder fell and ended up a tetro would it be his fault? Accidents can happen to anyone, and they may have no control over what happens. If as in most cases someone discharges a firearm because they did not clear their firearm properly, then thats negligence not a accident. Edited September 21, 2017 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Still an accident though.... if a scaffolder fell and ended up a tetro would it be his fault? Sorry elvis I should have been clearer I shall edit my post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElvisThePelvis Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Yes , he should have been wearing the correct PPE, ie. a fall restraint harness, and could be in trouble with HSE when they investigate. Good point, so when is a accident not negligence?.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Well Apparently there's no such thing as a accidentall discharge only bad /sloppy/careless gun handleing by civilians Except it appears when a armed officer shoots his own foot It becomes a accidental discharge Hopefully he won't get full paid sick leave or a early pension through carelessly disabling his self All the best Of Edit According to the statistics once a fortnight has become the norm for this to happen Can't help thinking there's either a touch of complacency or slight problem with the training Negligent discharge. Never amusing at the time. One of my Lance-Sergeants shot himself in the foot at Lydd and Hythe in 1986 about 30 minutes before Maradona did his hand of God trick. I was waiting for the ambulance in the control room when the goal went in! Ah, the good old days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mochastorm Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 The accidental discharge league table looks interesting. It would have to be a non classified Home Office document and therefore be available for public examination. But of course it's not, it's just more flawed information to throw around when there's a bit of Police bashing to be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 The accidental discharge league table looks interesting. It would have to be a non classified Home Office document and therefore be available for public examination. But of course it's not, it's just more flawed information to throw around when there's a bit of Police bashing to be done. Whats flawed about it. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted September 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Good point, so when is a accident not negligence?.. Is there such a thing as an accident? Or are all accidents caused by negligence?........because it seems health and safety can always find someone negligent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mochastorm Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Whats flawed about it. ? Where is this information from, what document and who is the author? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Funker Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 (edited) An occasional gun handler is far more likely to have an accident than someone who handles a gun day in day out, comparing the two does nothing but emphasise that point! That was the reason for the comparison! How is that ridiculous? Or have I misunderstood your comment?I've probably misunderstood your post in all honesty, I was running on only a few hours sleep.I was looking at it from the perspective that the more you do something the greater the likelihood of making a mistake. Why do they even have them in a safe, hardly ready for immediate use. Maybe the likelihood of needing them immediately outweighs the likely increase in NDs if they were always carried?Plus armed officers are frequently used in incidents where carrying carbines would be totally inappropriate. Plus plus, have you seen the meltdowns certain members of the public have if they see officers with carbines , unfortunately police have to be seen to give a toss about public perception. Edited September 21, 2017 by Muddy Funker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 Where is this information from, what document and who is the author? The forces involved, after freedom of information requests. Fifty of the 52 police forces in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland provided a response to the FoI request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 I can recall that back in the 1990's, around the start of Armed Response Units, there were approximately 2 'accidental discharges' per month. All when guns were being 'cleared', prior to entering the station. This concerned 1 of the 'old school' bosses, who contacted the Army to ask if this was unusual. He was told that 2 per week would be considered 'usual'. I do hope the standard of training has increased, now that there are more armed Officers on the streets. I remember a friend being shot at 2 foot range, with a .38 blank from a revolver. He still has the scars on his forearm. He was shot by an Instructor ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted September 21, 2017 Report Share Posted September 21, 2017 I've probably misunderstood your post in all honesty, I was running on only a few hours sleep. I was looking at it from the perspective that the more you do something the greater the likelihood of making a mistake. Maybe the likelihood of needing them immediately outweighs the likely increase in NDs if they were always carried? Plus armed officers are frequently used in incidents where carrying carbines would be totally inappropriate. Plus plus, have you seen the meltdowns certain members of the public have if they see officers with carbines , unfortunately police have to be seen to give a toss about public perception. OK probably different than here, they are always ready for immediate use. What firearms they have available with them apart from handguns would depend on the area they were policing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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