Armed police office shoots himself!

[Archie-fox]

I new a marine in 42 commando who shot himself thru his hand whilst sat on the toilet, he was doing whats called push drills but must have pulled the trigger, went thru his hand then the side of the toilet wall and hit another marine in his arm...

Edited September 22, 2017 by Archie-fox

[Zapp]

Our training wing sergeant put a lovely bullet crease and a hole on the wall of the armoury at Thiepval Barracks by being inattentive whilst preparing his Browning 9mm to be handed in.

 

Anyone who has used one will know that you either need to have a mag inserted to release the hammer, unless you had long enough fingers to reach inside to depress the lever.

 

He didn't have long fingers, and because he was talking rather than paying attention he inserted a loaded mag before he had even put the slide forward.

 

End result, hole in the wall, a lovely punishment posting to the western reaches of Wales for him and new underpants for everyone in the room.

[panoma1]

All the examples given here, from what I can see, are down to negligence not accident!.........The only accidental discharge I recognise would be due to malfunctioning or faulty equipment! Did the copper who was the subject of this thread have malfunctioning or faulty equipment? If not surely it was down to negligence.....and raises questions concerning that individual officers competence to be in charge of firearms.......imagine the possible outcome if that was a civilian "accidentally" letting a round off in the middle of a city!! He wouldn't be in hospital on sick leave....he'd probably be in a mortuary!

Edited September 22, 2017 by panoma1

[Davyo]

Thank God the general public are not allowed to carry fire arms.Its even worrying that you can apply for FAC and go out and buy a 243 or what ever.The only training is a simple chat with the FEO , if he can be ***** to turn up.Mine didn't,just sent application and got cleared for 22LR & 243,and I had no experience other than SG.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Davyo

[ph5172]

Seems everyone is affected

 

Munitions Incidents and Defects (MID) Cell data on UK Military Negligent Discharges and unintentional firearm injuries from 01 Jan 03 to 31 Dec 07, Over the 5 year period there were 1158 Unintentional firearm discharges, forty three (4%) of which resulted in injury. Fifty five military personnel sustained unintentional firearm injuries during the review period, more than half of which were gunshot wounds and this included one fatality

 

As we seem to have to backup everything we say on here - Journal of Army Medical Corps 2009 Mar;155(1):20-3. Stansfield and Rushforth

[Scully]

Thank God the general public are not allowed to carry fire arms.Its even worrying that you can apply for FAC and go out and buy a 243 or what ever.The only training is a simple chat with the FEO , if he can be ***** to turn up.Mine didn't,just sent application and got cleared for 22LR & 243,and I had no experience other than SG.

I'm assuming that by the above post, you sought and paid for training in firearms handling, even though the subject of this thread proves that training doesn't cancel out the chances of negligence?

[CharlieT]

I'm assuming that by the above post, you sought and paid for training in firearms handling, even though the subject of this thread proves that training doesn't cancel out the chances of negligence?

 

You just beat me to it !!

[wymberley]

Negligent discharge. Never amusing at the time. One of my Lance-Sergeants shot himself in the foot at Lydd and Hythe in 1986 about 30 minutes before Maradona did his hand of God trick. I was waiting for the ambulance in the control room when the goal went in! Ah, the good old days.

Much more interesting than now. An Aden gun letting go several 30mm canon shells - albeit ball - from a Hunter on the ground is quite entertaining - unless, of course, you're in the way.

Edited September 22, 2017 by wymberley

[Breastman]

 

This is fudge, cops don't have automatic weapons and how would he know it was loaded

 

I can only presume you're being pedantic, most people would refer to an MP5 or G36 as an 'automatic' firearm, the only external difference between a semi-auto and full-auto is an extra notch on the selector lever after all. And police firearms are obviously going to be loaded if they have a magazine in them, if it was a G36 you can even see the rounds as they have translucent magazines.

 

 

Exactly.

 

I would sincerely hope that when a firearms officer is on "active duty" attending an incident where he may be called upon to discharge his firearm, he would have a round in the chamber. Not to do so would make the whole purpose of him being there futile.

 

We are all human and I'm afraid humans have accidents.

 

This /\

 

 

 

I'm only answering from my experience, but I'm fairly sure most forces will be the same.

 

Yes it does sound unsafe but the safest place for a gun to be loaded or unloaded is in an armoury pointing into a firing tube.

 

The alternative is clearing weapons after a job either into a car foot well (which I know has happened in the past) or a make safe bag somewhere out in the public domain not in an armoury. Then the opposite is as the job is breaking getting weapons out of the safe and making them ready while on a blue light run, while map reading, listening to the radio ect , not safe (I know this used to happen too)

 

Making everything ready in the armoury then locking it away in the safe is the only option I think, you just have to remember not to place the safety to fire and pull the trigger while it's pointing at your foot

Most ARV vehicles have a bullet trap compartment in the boot now so guns can be loaded/unloaded with a certain guarantee that if they accidentally discharge the bullet shouldn't go anywhere

 

Why do they even have them in a safe, hardly ready for immediate use.

They have their handguns on their person and only draw their rifles/carbines when authorised/require them. Most threats aren't going to occur next to an ARV so there's plenty of time to retrieve them. It also means that if they were to be ambushed for their firearms the attackers would only have immediate access to pistols and not something more capable.

[Davyo]

I'm assuming that by the above post, you sought and paid for training in firearms handling, even though the subject of this thread proves that training doesn't cancel out the chances of negligence?

No I didn't,I just applied common sense & what I'd pick up off others.I just find it strange that everybody seems to be experts on firearms all of a sudden.Seems the only knowledge I required to obtain FAC was knowing what a back stop was.That doesn't qualify me for making comment on the officer. Edited September 22, 2017 by Davyo

[ips]

The simple matter is anyone who accidentally shoots themselves or someone else was not pointing the barrell in a safe place. Accidental discharge may well occur whilst"clearing" the weapon BUT knowing that possibility one should ensure the barrel is pointing to a safe back stop. Failure to do so is in my opinion negligent.

[Scully]

No I didn't,I just applied common sense & what I'd pick up off others.I just find it strange that everybody seems to be experts on firearms all of a sudden.Seems the only knowledge I required to obtain FAC was knowing what a back stop was.That doesn't qualify me for making comment on the officer.

Then perhaps the rest of the general public ( of which you and I are one ) may do the same?

I haven't made comment on the officer either, merely that being human can be fatal, meaning we all make mistakes.

I have always however, pointed out the importance of muzzle awareness.

[panoma1]

No I didn't,I just applied common sense & what I'd pick up off others.I just find it strange that everybody seems to be experts on firearms all of a sudden.Seems the only knowledge I required to obtain FAC was knowing what a back stop was.That doesn't qualify me for making comment on the officer.

Your admitted lack of knowledge, would seemingly preclude you from comment on negligent discharge and safe gun handling too! Lol!

[12gauge82]

Couple of points for me

humans make mistakes, no matter how good your training.

you can't apply civilian gun handling to military/police they carry guns with one up the spout and they're training is such that accidents and even negligent discharge is far more likely.

I don't understand the police bashing on here by a minority of individuals.

[ordnance]

Our training wing sergeant put a lovely bullet crease and a hole on the wall of the armoury at Thiepval Barracks by being inattentive whilst preparing his Browning 9mm to be handed in.

 

Anyone who has used one will know that you either need to have a mag inserted to release the hammer, unless you had long enough fingers to reach inside to depress the lever.

 

He didn't have long fingers, and because he was talking rather than paying attention he inserted a loaded mag before he had even put the slide forward.

 

End result, hole in the wall, a lovely punishment posting to the western reaches of Wales for him and new underpants for everyone in the room.

I remember watching them in the armoury in Thiepval Barracks handing back in Browning handguns after coming off duty. From memory their was a magazine welded to a bracket that they placed the gun on and eased springs before they were put back on the rack. PS I am going back 30 years.

Edited September 22, 2017 by ordnance

[ordnance]

 

 

They have their handguns on their person and only draw their rifles/carbines when authorised/require them. Most threats aren't going to occur next to an ARV so there's plenty of time to retrieve them. It also means that if they were to be ambushed for their firearms the attackers would only have immediate access to pistols and not something more capable.

 

As i said its different here they have to be ready for immediate use not locked in the boot, are they not allowed to make their own judgement if rifles etc are required.

[12gauge82]

 

As i said its different here they have to be ready for immediate use not locked in the boot, are they not allowed to make their own judgement if rifles etc are required.

Yes officers can self authorise if think it meets a set criteria and delaying to ask permission could endanger life

[scotslad]

Couple of points for me

humans make mistakes, no matter how good your training.

you can't apply civilian gun handling to military/police they carry guns with one up the spout and they're training is such that accidents and even negligent discharge is far more likely.

I don't understand the police bashing on here by a minority of individuals.

 

I'm with the above.

 

U can't really compare either armed forces or armed polis handling the type of weapons they handle to someone with a shot gun or even bolt action rifle, with a tiny bit of common sense its really not hard to be safe with them.

 

Its very easy to bash the polis or make comments about it but no 1 was there and like many others have said we all make mistakes and sometimes it just comes down to either safe handling/ other H&S measures or pure blind luck.

 

I also bet there could be more ND's with SGC/FAC owners that will never ever be reported or talked about so really u'll have no idea how many they're really is.

Whereas polis/army will have to account for every round and report any incidents.

[ordnance]

Couple of points for me

humans make mistakes, no matter how good your training.

you can't apply civilian gun handling to military/police they carry guns with one up the spout and they're training is such that accidents and even negligent discharge is far more likely.

I don't understand the police bashing on here by a minority of individuals.

 

I have being shooting on civilian and military ranges for years with one up the spout as you call it, the competitions would involve loading and unloading clearing firearms on numerous occasions, thankfully i have not seen any N/Ds. And its not something you could hide everyone at the range would know.

Edited September 22, 2017 by ordnance

[12gauge82]

 

I have being shooting on civilian and military ranges for years with one up the spout as you call it, the competitions would involve loading and unloading clearing firearms on numerous occasions, thankfully i have not seen any N/Ds. And its not something you could hide everyone at the range would know.

No surprises you'd be on here too bashing again.

And I stand by my statement, there's no competitions you can do in this country as a civilian that will compare to some of the military and police training, live fire and move as a squad, shooting live bullets past each other ect, not to mention they're just as human as you and me and will also make mistakes, especially with the added risks they undertake.

[panoma1]

I'm with the above.

 

U can't really compare either armed forces or armed polis handling the type of weapons they handle to someone with a shot gun or even bolt action rifle, with a tiny bit of common sense its really not hard to be safe with them.

 

Its very easy to bash the polis or make comments about it but no 1 was there and like many others have said we all make mistakes and sometimes it just comes down to either safe handling/ other H&S measures or pure blind luck.

 

I also bet there could be more ND's with SGC/FAC owners that will never ever be reported or talked about so really u'll have no idea how many they're really is.

Whereas polis/army will have to account for every round and report any incidents.

It isn't about polis bashing, it's about questioning the safety and competence of an individual who's duties involve carrying (and using) a loaded gun in an urban environment in order to protect the general public!......Who, whilst in the course of his duties, injures himself by NDing his weapon in the centre of London!

Mistakes are usually down to negligence, and I doubt many civilian SGC/FAC owners carry and ND their firearms in the middle of a city! So why would their ND's be newsworthy?

[12gauge82]

It isn't about polis bashing, it's about questioning the safety and competence of an individual

The police will look at the individuals suitability to carry firearms and will deal with any breach very robustly, what gets me on here is there are certain people on here who have no interest in the individual officer in this case, but try to discredit the entire police force every chance they get, many of these officers would put themselves in harms way in a heartbeat.

[ordnance]

It isn't about polis bashing, it's about questioning the safety and competence of an individual who's duties involve carrying (and using) a loaded gun in an urban environment in order to protect the general public!......Who, whilst in the course of his duties, injures himself by NDing his weapon in the centre of London!

Mistakes are usually down to negligence, and I doubt many civilian SGC/FAC owners carry and ND their firearms in the middle of a city! So why would their ND's be newsworthy?

+ 1

[ph5172]

 

I have being shooting on civilian and military ranges for years with one up the spout as you call it, the competitions would involve loading and unloading clearing firearms on numerous occasions, thankfully i have not seen any N/Ds. And its not something you could hide everyone at the range would know.

Are these not usually closely supervised?

The competitions i have seen (admittedly 1 or 2) have always had some sort of supervisor stood behind every few people

[ordnance]

No surprises you'd be on here too bashing again.

And I stand by my statement, there's no competitions you can do in this country as a civilian that will compare to some of the military and police training, live fire and move as a squad, shooting live bullets past each other ect, not to mention they're just as human as you and me and will also make mistakes, especially with the added risks they undertake.

The officer was not involved in any of the above when the incident happened. Most N/Ds take place loading and unloading firearms when on duty not during training.

Most of the unintentional firearms discharges happened during the loading and unloading drill on police property, the Met said.

 

Are these not usually closely supervised?

The competitions i have seen (admittedly 1 or 2) have always had some sort of supervisor stood behind every few people

 

The police are supervised during training.

Edited September 22, 2017 by ordnance