Rottweil 36grams no. 6

[wokkywokky]

Can anyone shed some light on these cartridges? My thinking is tight chokes, lots of lead and a big enough shot size to be able to take birds at longer ranges. 60-70yards perhaps.

 

Oh and I don't think I would mind the extra punch on my shoulder, I'm a big lad so I think I can take it 😀. I'm sure I will be eating those words the following day if I shoot these! Oh and one last thing would there be a longer term effect on the gun if I ran a few thousand through here?

[everycal]

I've got some of these, always wondered what they were designed for. High partridge perhaps? I'd have thought more open chokes would produce better (massive) patterns?

[wokkywokky]

Hi Luke. Opening the chokes out should allow the opportunity to hit birds at closer ranges without silly misses. At the ranges I'm looking at open chokes would be too far spread out to ensure a good kill. I'm thinking full and 3/4, depending on how this works might even go for extra full and full.

[Guest cookoff013]

1,1/4oz was the original sporting load. 1,1/8z was for clays too.

[oldypigeonpopper]

1,1/4oz was the original sporting load. 1,1/8z was for clays too.

hello, when was that cookoff ?

[GingerCat]

Pattern one at that range and see. I don't think a no. 6 shot will have much spare energy past 60 yards.

[wokkywokky]

Pattern one at that range and see. I don't think a no. 6 shot will have much spare energy past 60 yards.

Thanks, will do a pattern test. How would one check if theres enough energy at 60yards?

[TIDES EDGE]

60 to 70 yards is beyond most peoples capabilities with any load only they dont know it

[wymberley]

Getting on now so have lightened up a bit but have always used these in 1&1/8 oz 7s (6&1/2s). You're lucky if you can source them - other than World Sporting, but look out for their carriage charge.

Their No 6s are our 5 &1/2s so you might just scrape the 60 yards (as above as just spotted) energy-wise. Theoretically, at 60 yards with full choke your pattern will be 32% so you're unlikely to get 40% even with Extra Full, but let's for a minute assume that you can. Would you expect to kill cleanly in terms of pattern with 7/8oz of 6s (English) at 40 yards with a True cylinder choke?

 

Just seen your last. These aren't the fastest rounds and you'd be lucky to make 0.9 ftlbs at the 60 yards (Burrard, 1150 ft/sec OV, (MV c1450 which these aren't).

 

Just spotted TE's post which in real terms is the bottom line.

[motty]

If I wanted to kill pigeons at 70 yards, I would probably choose a different cartridge.

Try these at a known 70 yards and see how you get on.

[GingerCat]

Personally I'd not bother. Or if I were to use them I'd stuck them through a half choke and shoot out to 45 yards max.

That's a long way for most people and also achievable.

As has been said above. A true 70 yards is a long way away and I don't think 36 grams will pattern and even if it did it wont have the energy to do a lot.

Given I shot some pigeon earlier at 35 yards with size 6.5 and shot a couple of birds twice with litle affect I seriously doubt you'll have any joy at 70 with size 6. A real 70 mind, not paces.

[Stonepark]

Can anyone shed some light on these cartridges? My thinking is tight chokes, lots of lead and a big enough shot size to be able to take birds at longer ranges. 60-70yards perhaps.

 

Oh and I don't think I would mind the extra punch on my shoulder, I'm a big lad so I think I can take it 😀. I'm sure I will be eating those words the following day if I shoot these! Oh and one last thing would there be a longer term effect on the gun if I ran a few thousand through here?

1 1/4 no 6 is the classic 50yard load using full choke, for 60 yards you need no5, 1 7/8 and full choke and it only just gets you there.

 

70 yards with a normal 12 bore and standard ammo is relying on chance to kill, not pattern.

[figgy]

36g of 6 is a lot of pellets to push through a tight choke. I'd have thought less choke would give a better pattern, be interesting to see if you do pattern them.

 

The firebird exploding targets might be a way of seeing what power the pellets have at range, if it goes off or not.

[matone]

Buy an 8 bore.

[Guest cookoff013]

hello, when was that cookoff ?

When lead was cheaper

[neutron619]

When lead was cheaper

 

It was quite common to shoot 1 1/4oz from a 12 gauge at everything until the 1930's. Smokeless powder arrived in shotgunning in around 1870 and took over lots of the market from 1900 onwards, but velocities didn't start to go up significantly until the '30s. Even then, 1150-1250fps was "fast". 36g of lead at 900fps - i.e. black powder velocity - is quite comfortable - and quite capable. It's still relatively recent that people were using 1 1/8oz for clays. Then we discovered 1500fps and decided that pellet damage, bad patterns and getting beaten up by our guns for the sake of giving 3" less lead was a good deal and haven't looked back since. It's a marketing man's wet dream...

Edited September 25, 2017 by neutron619

[wymberley]

 

It was quite common to shoot 1 1/4oz from a 12 gauge at everything until the 1930's. Smokeless powder arrived in shotgunning in around 1870 and took over lots of the market from 1900 onwards, but velocities didn't start to go up significantly until the '30s. Even then, 1150-1250fps was "fast". 36g of lead at 900fps - i.e. black powder velocity - is quite comfortable - and quite capable. It's still relatively recent that people were using 1 1/8oz for clays. Then we discovered 1500fps and decided that pellet damage, bad patterns and getting beaten up by our guns for the sake of giving 3" less lead was a good deal and haven't looked back since. It's a marketing man's wet dream...

If the quoted figures relate to the then existing method of defining velocity, they would still be considered "fast" today.

[neutron619]

If the quoted figures relate to the then existing method of defining velocity, they would still be considered "fast" today.

 

Nope - muzzle velocities above. I like 1200fps at the muzzle. Lots of people think 1500 is better...

[wymberley]

 

Nope - muzzle velocities above. I like 1200fps at the muzzle. Lots of people think 1500 is better...

Yep.

Many do not realise that, for example, the earlier 20th century figure - to split your difference - of 1200 ft/sec was actually c1550 at the muzzle.

[400_racer]

Yep.

Many do not realise that, for example, the earlier 20th century figure - to split your difference - of 1200 ft/sec was actually c1550 at the muzzle.

 

 

What was the accepted reference point for measuring velocities back in those days if not at the muzzle, out of interest?

[wymberley]

 

 

What was the accepted reference point for measuring velocities back in those days if not at the muzzle, out of interest?

Known as the Observed Velocity. Measured over 20 yards and the average taken. The resultant figure is, give or take, the actual velocity at a tad under 10 yards.

Edited September 25, 2017 by wymberley

[neutron619]

What was the accepted reference point for measuring velocities back in those days if not at the muzzle, out of interest?

 

It's worth saying that the 900fps muzzle velocity number above would have been on top of a charge that would have represented a slightly reduced load.

 

All of these numbers = 1¼oz, 900fps, etc. come from the days of muzzle-loading guns.

 

Before we had breech-loading guns and cartridges to put in them, the 12 gauge had a standardized load of 3¼ drams of black powder under 1¼oz of shot, producing 1050fps at the muzzle. This was considered to produce the best pattern and be safe for all black powder proofed guns.

 

It's important to remember that in those days, the only way of changing the behaviour of the shotgun was either to pour in less powder, less shot, or less of both. It wouldn't be unusual to reduce a powder charge for financial reasons, for comfort, or for practice shooting - powder was costly and people didn't waste it! This is why you still sometimes see American budget shells labelled "2½ drams equivalent" or "3 drams equivalent" - they use less powder, are cheaper and produce lower muzzle velocities.

 

In the black powder era, those reduced charges would quite easily have reduced the 1050fps "standard" to sub-1000fps velocities, hence the 900fps I quoted.

[Guest cookoff013]

probably in older times used purer lead shot, less antimony..

 

i love 1200fps loads they are cute. 1300fps was the club shell. 1400fps international, 1500fps for extreme loads.

[Perazzishot]

I have some 36/8 Rotweil super game and they are an awful slow dirty cartridge compared to their excellent Wadmanshiel.

[matone]

I recall reading a fairly comprehensive review of wildfowling carts in an 80`s mag.The reviewer patterned the available ammo of the time and measured velocity etc.An unthinkable thing in current flick throughs !

A 11/4 oz Hull load came out as the best performer as I recall. Noted for their dire performance were the most expensive cartridges tested......Rottweil Waidmansheill 11/4 oz !!!

They were fastest but patterned abysmaly..

Would anyone print that now ?

At the time we thought the Rottweils were the biz! You could tell theywere fast by the punch they gave you ...and they were costly,so had to be best....

..didn`t they ??

Edited September 30, 2017 by matone