Fast cartridge vs slower cartridge

[Young guns]

What's people's views on faster and a bit slower cartridges. My mate I went out with today likes 1450 or a bit more. But I use 1375 but gonna by some clear pigeon that are 1400 

[anser2]

In lead the pattern is far more important than the speed of the cartridge. Slower cartridges tend to throw better pattens than fast cartridges. In steel its a different story. Steel naturaly throws tight patterns , but with the pellets being lighter size for size speed helps peneration.

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by anser2

[Guest stevo]

?

Edited November 27, 2017 by stevo

[getthegat]

Does the speed literally mean that the pellets get to the target quicker and if so, by how many fractions of a second? Unless the birds are really high and fast, can it make a big enough difference? Having said that, when I first got my moderated, I was using subs ( 1100 FPS) I was given some Rottweile cartridges which are about 1500 FPS and whether it's my imagination due to the very definite crack sound, but they do seem an improvement.

[hawkfanz]

speed is all very well,but when u send faster it also slows down faster due to increased air resistance,40 plus years ago when i started reloading,a fowler used to post recipes for fowling home loads in shooting times,forget his name but he advocated useing large size pellets in big subsonic loads,ie send it slower big pellets retain energy for longer and dont slow down as quick either,so for all my fowling i i used his loads,,1 1/2 oz of no1 for geese,and 1 1/2 oz no5 for duck,they worked just fine,so i,m not sure speed is all its cracked up to be,after all old eley carts were about 1100 fps.they worked ok then.

[Me matt]

10 hours ago, stevo said:

At some point in the near future I’m gonna try the 1500 FPS stuff ?

And you'll never look back  

[panoma1]

12 hours ago, anser2 said:

In lead the pattern is far more important than the speed of the cartridge. Slower cartridges tend to throw better pattens than fast cartridges. In steel its a different story. Steel naturaly throws tight patterns , but with the pellets being lighter size for size speed helps peneration.

 

With lead the old adage "little powder much lead shoots far kills dead" refers to pattern killing not speed....I think that applies today as much as it did then!

[dipper]

11 hours ago, hawkfanz said:

speed is all very well,but when u send faster it also slows down faster due to increased air resistance,40 plus years ago when i started reloading,a fowler used to post recipes for fowling home loads in shooting times,forget his name but he advocated useing large size pellets in big subsonic loads,ie send it slower big pellets retain energy for longer and dont slow down as quick either,so for all my fowling i i used his loads,,1 1/2 oz of no1 for geese,and 1 1/2 oz no5 for duck,they worked just fine,so i,m not sure speed is all its cracked up to be,after all old eley carts were about 1100 fps.they worked ok then.

David Garrard  wrote under Homeloader he used to develope loads with Ian Charlton.David knew his stuff.Dipper

[Smokersmith]

11 hours ago, Young guns said:

What's people's views on faster and a bit slower cartridges. My mate I went out with today likes 1450 or a bit more. But I use 1375 but gonna by some clear pigeon that are 1400 

a) The chances that each shell will be the quoted speed are very slim

b) The chances that you'll notice 25fps will be zero

The best time you could devote to the decision would be to pattern some and see what they look like. Chances are, if you're on them, you'll kill 'em!!

[Guest cookoff013]

9 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

With lead the old adage "little powder much lead shoots far kills dead" refers to pattern killing not speed....I think that applies today as much as it did then!

 

More so. Nitro runs differently but that formula still works.

[neutron619]

"Speed"?

I thought that was a street name for amphetamine sulphate but it turns out it's also a disease of UK shotgunning where people think that launching lead pellets at birds in a way that even the late Victorians knew was damaging and stupid, both to the performance of the pellets and the shooter's shoulder, is a good idea.

I mean, it's great. Why wouldn't you want more speed??

You get to be beaten up by your gun (I hear some blokes like that sort of thing, but - shhh - don't tell anyone!), which no longer throws nice, tight, even patterns and you get all of that for a reduction in lead of about 3" at maximum range, which - in a 50-60" shot cloud - you won't notice anyway. Your shot pattern (which is now full of holes and just possibly looks like an elongated doughnut) gets there a fraction of a second faster (and it's not even proportional to muzzle velocity: learn about drag functions chaps - you'll never look back ) and fails to kill the bird because half of the pellets have disappeared off in random directions and the other half are so spread out that the bird gets through unharmed.

So yeah. Speed is great. I personally can't get enough of it. I just wanted to say so before I get back to tweaking my 2200fps wildfowling load - the pellets are solid gold, so completely non-toxic and highly effective - which I'll be putting through my super-dooper-magnum 12 gauge (6" chamber) with its solid titanium 0.120" constriction goose choke and taking down the birds at 400 yards. Performance thus far is looking excellent - provided I stand directly under the goose and, when the gun explodes, catch him in the cloud of shrapnel.

Honestly. People will believe anything, won't they?

Edited November 27, 2017 by neutron619

[wymberley]

35 minutes ago, neutron619 said:

"Speed"?

I thought that was a street name for amphetamine sulphate but it turns out it's also a disease of UK shotgunning where people think that launching lead pellets at birds in a way that even the late Victorians knew was damaging and stupid, both to the performance of the pellets and the shooter's shoulder, is a good idea.

I mean, it's great. Why wouldn't you want more speed??

You get to be beaten up by your gun (I hear some blokes like that sort of thing, but - shhh - don't tell anyone!), which no longer throws nice, tight, even patterns and you get all of that for a reduction in lead of about 3" at maximum range, which - in a 50-60" shot cloud - you won't notice anyway. Your shot pattern (which is now full of holes and just possibly looks like an elongated doughnut) gets there a fraction of a second faster (and it's not even proportional to muzzle velocity: learn about drag functions chaps - you'll never look back ) and fails to kill the bird because half of the pellets have disappeared off in random directions and the other half are so spread out that the bird gets through unharmed.

So yeah. Speed is great. I personally can't get enough of it. I just wanted to say so before I get back to tweaking my 2200fps wildfowling load - the pellets are solid gold, so completely non-toxic and highly effective - which I'll be putting through my super-dooper-magnum 12 gauge (6" chamber) with its solid titanium 0.120" constriction goose choke and taking down the birds at 400 yards. Performance thus far is looking excellent - provided I stand directly under the goose and, when the gun explodes, catch him in the cloud of shrapnel.

Honestly. People will believe anything, won't they?

Are they any good for rooks?

[neutron619]

44 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Are they any good for rooks?

Fantastic.

Plus - if you don't include the medical bills - they work out at only $1300 a pop, so well within the current price range for premium non-tox. That's mostly the 1 1/8oz of 24-carat #5's, plus the cost of a bit of powder (pentarythritol tetranitrate gives just a little bit of zing - but it ain't cheap!).

There is a slight downside that, soft gold or not, you do have to buy and fit a new choke every time you fire one (also a new gun, a new jacket and new eyeballs but the marketing guy is doing his best not to let that slip), so yeah - they're the business (so to speak). I'm absolutely convinced they're the next big thing. Life savings, all spent on components and loading machines. Put it this way: I'm paying the marketing manager in cartridges.

Also, the packaging is really, really shiny so you should definitely buy some. Or just because I say so.

Did I mention they were fast?

Edited November 27, 2017 by neutron619

[TIGHTCHOKE]

[wymberley]

PM inbound.

[figgy]

Look up Johnnyof the boys post on cartridge velocity test and see just what your supposedly 1450 FPS carts are actually going at.  Most are way below the manufacturers wild claims. 

[Hamster]

2 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

a) The chances that each shell will be the quoted speed are very slim

b) The chances that you'll notice 25fps will be zero

The best time you could devote to the decision would be to pattern some and see what they look like. Chances are, if you're on them, you'll kill 'em!!

Correct, correct, correct.

 

18 minutes ago, figgy said:

Look up Johnnyof the boys post on cartridge velocity test and see just what your supposedly 1450 FPS carts are actually going at.  Most are way below the manufacturers wild claims. 

Correct.

Speed is either measured a couple of feet from the muzzle (extremely difficult to do with shot shells without specialised equipment) or 20 yards from the muzzle which is then referred to as observed velocity. Manufacturers lie all the time and refusing to define which of these criteria they use is part of that misleading process. If you ever fire a 1500 fps load (even at the muzzle) you'll know about it without having to be told. 

[wymberley]

The CIP standard is V2.5 (in metres). Pretty much all of the UK makers use V1. The OV is now pretty much historical with regard to the current makers figures. Apart for the odd small maker which I can't answer for, there's only one UK player that doesn't give the info' on their web-site and if their figures are to be believed (as indicated above, that could well be doubtful) it would suggest that they use the CIP V2.5.

[figgy]

Isn’t it some thing to do with calculating back to the muzzle and they come up with a figure plucked out of the air. 

[Wb123]

I don't think I have ever even wondered how fast my shot flies. I buy whatever is cheapest and occasionally consider if it makes a subtly different bang. 

[FatFreddysCat]

The last time I sent some 10g homeloads to the proof house for testing I sent some Remington Sportsman Steel (claimed speed is 1500 fps) as well. Mean velocity came back as 1505 fps, range 1446 to 1555fps. See cert below. Failed CIP velocity maximum.

.

[figgy]

You see the charts showing how at x yards there is little difference in velocity this is true but how much further did that shot travel before reaching the same speed as slower cartridge. 

That to me is the kicker, I think that’s where difference is that people perceive. I’ve shot fast carts many thousands of them. Tried some other carts at the same target same sight picture and not hit the clay as hard just clipped back end, tried a few and had to increase my forward allowance noticed  carts were slower than my usual and by enough for me to notice. Range around 30-35 yards to clay. 

When you get used to the slower carts you like them better as leads recoil and better breaks 

Edited December 11, 2017 by figgy

[wymberley]

As a reasonable guestimate, comparing the mean above with a similar shot comfortably within the CIP reg's (420 m/s) then the faster load would have reached the same velocity of the slower about two yards further on when looking at 40 yards for the slower. The flight time for both at the 40 yards is such that a target moving at 30 mph would have flown less than 3" by the time the slower pellets, when compared to the faster, arrived.

Edited December 12, 2017 by wymberley

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, wymberley said:

As a reasonable guestimate, comparing the mean above with a similar shot comfortably within the CIP reg's (420 m/s) then the faster load would have reached the same velocity of the slower about one yard further on when looking at 40 yards for the slower. The flight time for both at the 40 yards is such that a target moving at 30 mph would have flown less than 3" by the time the slower pellets, when compared to the faster, arrived.

Faster and slower are not really the correct terms, as said above the difference is so small.

Pattern through your gun, establish what is good and go from there.

[wymberley]

17 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Faster and slower are not really the correct terms, as said above the difference is so small.

Pattern through your gun, establish what is good and go from there.

Exactly. it'll be interesting to see what Cookoff and Neutron come up with later next year.

TC, You were quick off the mark. I'd made an error in my post which I'd corrected but not before you'd quoted me -  what's a yard on the marsh!