Racist or not racist.

[Munzy]

2 minutes ago, walshie said:

Is the Aussie an Aborigine?

Yes. But his wife is French.

[Rewulf]

23 minutes ago, Munzy said:

What makes you think that?

Because you basing your assumption on how it should be,and not how things actually are.

[Scully]

I saw this on the BBC news last week and commented to my OH on how sad it was that a young girl had left her home and family in another country to study in this one, and been beaten to death by what amounted to street vermin. 

I feel she has been terribly let down, and her family must feel similar, in amongst a myriad of other tortured thoughts.

I know the police don’t gave an easy job, but it seems I’m constantly reading of ‘police failures’ of one kind or another. It’s a sad and disappointing fact of our society today.  

 

[Munzy]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Because you basing your assumption on how it should be,and not how things actually are.

I haven’t made any assumptions.

I’ve pointed out a misunderstanding that our media and fellow PW members hold regarding the definition of a “racially motivated” crime.

I’m fully aware that people of all ethnicities commit racially motivated hate crimes. I’m also fully aware that our media misrepresents these crimes, often skewing the facts depending on the colour of the perpetrator’s skin.

Crimes committed by one race against another are not necessarily race related; that’s a simple fact. It’s not naïveté or left-wing liberalism leading me to understand the law in this way. In actual fact a race crime could technically be committed by a white man against another white man... technically. It all comes down to motivation, WHY did an attacker choose the victim, was it because of race?

It’s a bit like trying to prove attempted murder. You have to establish motivation and intention. Just because someone gets battered to within an inch of their life, sits on life support for a month and all the doctors agree that they should have died, doesn’t mean the attacker intended to murder them.

[Munzy]

I’ve just been thinking about why this topic annoys me so much.

It’s because I don’t really care what the motivation is for a pro-active assault and the media (and us as consumers) have got it all wrong. Is it any worse to assault someone because they have different coloured skin than because they happened to be having a drink with their wife in the pub across the bar from a beered-up knuckle-dragger? Is it worse for a white lad to stab a black lad because he’s a “ ******” or for someone to be stabbed because they cut someone up on the motorway?

What I’m saying is, why aren’t we as a society saying, “We will not stand for violence under ANY circumstances, you’re going to prison for a very long time”?

Preoccupation with race detracts from the important facts, some antisocial lowlife attacked someone and should be punished severely.

Another example of why this country (and the World) is going down the pan.

[12gauge82]

6 hours ago, Munzy said:

I’ve just been thinking about why this topic annoys me so much.

It’s because I don’t really care what the motivation is for a pro-active assault and the media (and us as consumers) have got it all wrong. Is it any worse to assault someone because they have different coloured skin than because they happened to be having a drink with their wife in the pub across the bar from a beered-up knuckle-dragger? Is it worse for a white lad to stab a black lad because he’s a “******” or for someone to be stabbed because they cut someone up on the motorway?

What I’m saying is, why aren’t we as a society saying, “We will not stand for violence under ANY circumstances, you’re going to prison for a very long time”?

Preoccupation with race detracts from the important facts, some antisocial lowlife attacked someone and should be punished severely.

Another example of why this country (and the World) is going down the pan.

I was about to post something along the same lines when I read this post, sums it up for me to.

[panoma1]

6 hours ago, Munzy said:

I’ve just been thinking about why this topic annoys me so much.

It’s because I don’t really care what the motivation is for a pro-active assault and the media (and us as consumers) have got it all wrong. Is it any worse to assault someone because they have different coloured skin than because they happened to be having a drink with their wife in the pub across the bar from a beered-up knuckle-dragger? Is it worse for a white lad to stab a black lad because he’s a “******” or for someone to be stabbed because they cut someone up on the motorway?

What I’m saying is, why aren’t we as a society saying, “We will not stand for violence under ANY circumstances, you’re going to prison for a very long time”?

Preoccupation with race detracts from the important facts, some antisocial lowlife attacked someone and should be punished severely.

Another example of why this country (and the World) is going down the pan.

To attain the above the police (and indeed many other agencies) need to be allowed to be apolitical....but they are not! Police officers reach senior ranks, not because they are good thief catchers, but because they conform to and promote a PC agenda......those that don't, get nowhere!

[Rewulf]

7 hours ago, Munzy said:

I haven’t made any assumptions.

I’ve pointed out a misunderstanding that our media and fellow PW members hold regarding the definition of a “racially motivated” crime.

I’m fully aware that people of all ethnicities commit racially motivated hate crimes. I’m also fully aware that our media misrepresents these crimes, often skewing the facts depending on the colour of the perpetrator’s skin.

Crimes committed by one race against another are not necessarily race related; that’s a simple fact. It’s not naïveté or left-wing liberalism leading me to understand the law in this way. In actual fact a race crime could technically be committed by a white man against another white man... technically. It all comes down to motivation, WHY did an attacker choose the victim, was it because of race?

It’s a bit like trying to prove attempted murder. You have to establish motivation and intention. Just because someone gets battered to within an inch of their life, sits on life support for a month and all the doctors agree that they should have died, doesn’t mean the attacker intended to murder them.

You are either being incredibly naive, misinformed or both, or playing devils advocate badly.

Of course not all interracial crimes are race hate crimes, no one said that.

My response was to your statement 'If a black girl attacks a white girl (or the other way around) it is not ‘automatically’ racially motivated. If a black girl attacks a white girl after shouting, “You white cracker bitch”, then the attack is racially motivated. You need to establish the intent and motivation, the colour of skin is not of primary concern.'

By this you are asserting that something needs to be said or implied to make it a race hate crime, and more importantly ,witnessed.

So if nothing is said or implied during the stabbing, punching or kicking frenzy, then its NOT a hate crime ?
I doubt that would work if it was a group of white men attacking a lone asian or black person would it ?
Can you not see my point ?
And yes a white man could indeed be convicted of a race/hate crime against another white man, and has been, race has little to do with colour these days.

The most bizarre comment though is about the attempted murder, difficult to prove in the example youve given ? You are  joking ?

This is about the imbalance between white and black race hate crimes.
Try this if you like and see.
Make 2 placards ,one saying I hate whites ! The other saying I hate blacks ! And walk up the high street with each of  them on separate days.
Tip..Do the I hate whites one first.

7 hours ago, Munzy said:

I’ve just been thinking about why this topic annoys me so much.

It’s because I don’t really care what the motivation is for a pro-active assault and the media (and us as consumers) have got it all wrong. Is it any worse to assault someone because they have different coloured skin than because they happened to be having a drink with their wife in the pub across the bar from a beered-up knuckle-dragger? Is it worse for a white lad to stab a black lad because he’s a “******” or for someone to be stabbed because they cut someone up on the motorway?

What I’m saying is, why aren’t we as a society saying, “We will not stand for violence under ANY circumstances, you’re going to prison for a very long time”?

Preoccupation with race detracts from the important facts, some antisocial lowlife attacked someone and should be punished severely.

Another example of why this country (and the World) is going down the pan.

You again have made me think that youve lead a sheltered life, I cant say because I dont know you.
But the underlined says 'I want life to be ordered and fair' Its not though, people DO stand for violence, because they are too weak to get up and deal with it, criminals DONT go to prison for a long time, because people are too weak to hand out sentences for violence that are a deterrent.
Preoccupation with race does detract from the facts, because people are too weak to stand up and say, Ive had enough of this, lets get some rules in place that dont bias towards ANY races, and enforce them sensibly.https://www.timesofisrael.com/scottish-man-found-guilty-of-hate-crime-for-teaching-nazi-salute-to-pug/

Still no arrests for Mariams murder.

[Newbie to this]

 

My favourite line "Irish people became White"

Edited March 21, 2018 by Newbie to this

[Munzy]

I'm growing a little tired of the personal insults @Rewulf but I will respond to a few of your points to try to help you understand what I am saying. If this doesn't work I'm afraid I am out.

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Of course not all interracial crimes are race hate crimes, no one said that.

Great, we agree. Many comments on this thread and further afield show that a lot of people do not understand this.

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

My response was to your statement 'If a black girl attacks a white girl (or the other way around) it is not ‘automatically’ racially motivated. If a black girl attacks a white girl after shouting, “You white cracker bitch”, then the attack is racially motivated. You need to establish the intent and motivation, the colour of skin is not of primary concern.'

By this you are asserting that something needs to be said or implied to make it a race hate crime, and more importantly ,witnessed.

So if nothing is said or implied during the stabbing, punching or kicking frenzy, then its NOT a hate crime ?

This is quite a simple fact in law. I am not necessarily saying that something needs to be "said" or "witnessed" by an attacker in order for the crime to be classed as a "hate crime", however, the onus will be on the CPS to prove that an attack is racially motivated. Where nothing is said during the attack, where there is no background to the attacker harbouring racist views, where there is nothing to go on other than the facts that Person A assaulted Person B then the prosecution will struggle to prove that the crime is racially motivated.

All I'm talking about is the way the law works, I can't possibly know whether racism played a part in your hypothetical crime or indeed in any real life one which I know nothing about.

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The most bizarre comment though is about the attempted murder, difficult to prove in the example youve given ? You are  joking ?

Nope, not joking.

It was a very relevant comment for me to make given the point above. Attempted Murder is a notoriously difficult crime to prove. The CPS consider evidence very carefully before agreeing to charge someone with Attempted Murder. What MUST be proved in court is that the attacker INTENDED to kill the victim. The attacker will of course say that they intended to do physical harm but that it was not there intention to kill. How can the CPS argue with this? How can they establish intent? Well, the attacker shouting, "I'm going to kill you", at the time would help the CPS but it wouldn't win the case necessarily. Attempted Murder needs to establish clear intent to kill and this is VERY difficult to prove since it is unrelated to the severity of the attack or the wounds inflicted (to a degree).

The relevance to this discussion is obvious (to me at least!), establishing motivation in these crimes is the key and that is very difficult to do. Failure to establish motivation will leave the CPS with no choice but to bring charges of GBH rather than attempted murder or some racially motivated hate crime.

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Try this if you like and see.
Make 2 placards ,one saying I hate whites ! The other saying I hate blacks ! And walk up the high street with each of  them on separate days.
Tip..Do the I hate whites one first.

What do I do once I have walked up the high street? What was the point you failed to make?

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You again have made me think that youve lead a sheltered life, I cant say because I dont know you.

You can't say... but you have several times.

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

...the underlined says 'I want life to be ordered and fair' Its not though, people DO stand for violence, because they are too weak to get up and deal with it, criminals DONT go to prison for a long time, because people are too weak to hand out sentences for violence that are a deterrent.

Errr... yes I know. Of course I want life to be "ordered and fair", I am not under any illusion that it is though. You have completely misunderstood me.

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Still no arrests for Mariams murder.

And so we wind-up at the only thing that really matters, not whether she was murdered because of her race, just that she was murdered. Very sad.

 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Munzy said:

I'm growing a little tired of the personal insults @Rewulf but I will respond to a few of your points to try to help you understand what I am saying. If this doesn't work I'm afraid I am out.
What insults ?!

 

Great, we agree. Many comments on this thread and further afield show that a lot of people do not understand this.

 

This is quite a simple fact in law. I am not necessarily saying that something needs to be "said" or "witnessed" by an attacker in order for the crime to be classed as a "hate crime", however, the onus will be on the CPS to prove that an attack is racially motivated. Where nothing is said during the attack, where there is no background to the attacker harbouring racist views, where there is nothing to go on other than the facts that Person A assaulted Person B then the prosecution will struggle to prove that the crime is racially motivated.
So ,as I said, if a group of white men attack a lone asian or black person, and nothing is said, this will not be seen as a race hate crime ?

All I'm talking about is the way the law works, I can't possibly know whether racism played a part in your hypothetical crime or indeed in any real life one which I know nothing about.
I know how the law works too, first hand experiences.

 

Nope, not joking.

It was a very relevant comment for me to make given the point above. Attempted Murder is a notoriously difficult crime to prove. The CPS consider evidence very carefully before agreeing to charge someone with Attempted Murder. What MUST be proved in court is that the attacker INTENDED to kill the victim. The attacker will of course say that they intended to do physical harm but that it was not there intention to kill. How can the CPS argue with this? How can they establish intent? Well, the attacker shouting, "I'm going to kill you", at the time would help the CPS but it wouldn't win the case necessarily. Attempted Murder needs to establish clear intent to kill and this is VERY difficult to prove since it is unrelated to the severity of the attack or the wounds inflicted (to a degree).
So, if I shoot someone, or stab them in the chest, but I didnt mean to kill them (because I said so ) Im good for a lesser charge ?

The relevance to this discussion is obvious (to me at least!), establishing motivation in these crimes is the key and that is very difficult to do. Failure to establish motivation will leave the CPS with no choice but to bring charges of GBH rather than attempted murder or some racially motivated hate crime.
So how do you establish motivation if the victim is dead, there are no witnesses , and perp isnt talking ?

 

What do I do once I have walked up the high street? What was the point you failed to make?
You wont need to do anything, the police will do it for you, but only with one of the placards, but Im sure you knew that anyway, or you have in fact , proved my accusation 

 

You can't say... but you have several times.
You seem unduly hurt by the comment, it wasnt really meant like that, I wanted you to tell me how wrong I was.

 

Errr... yes I know. Of course I want life to be "ordered and fair", I am not under any illusion that it is though. You have completely misunderstood me.
Just read what you wrote is all.

 

And so we wind-up at the only thing that really matters, not whether she was murdered because of her race, just that she was murdered. Very sad.

Now youve really missed the point of the thread.
No one has even been charged with murder, or arrested.
All authorities say it DEFINITELY wasnt race or hate related, or may not even be the reason she died !!
I know the exact spot where she was attacked, its covered by multiple CCTV systems of various companies and authorites, apparently NONE worked, or have poor images.
I believe the race of the attackers is the primary reason for this, and before you pass the tin foil, I am very much not alone in this, there is absolute outrage in Nottingham about this.
 

 

 

[Gordon R]

Rewulf - I can see your point and agree with it.

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Rewulf - I can see your point and agree with it.

Glad someone can !

[Retsdon]

It must be difficult to prove though that race per se is the motivating factor in a lot of these crimes. Is it race or is it 'otherness' of some kind or other. It's always been the case that speaking wirh ths wrong accent, or being from the wrong area, or dressing the wrong way, or any number of  minor'othernesses' would render you liable to assault if you were unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  And of course, being the wrong colour or ethnicity can  just be yet another on the same list....in other words, it's  just an excuse for a spontaneeous assault that's underlying cause is really that the assailant or assailants are feeling punchy and looking for someone to do over.  Any excuse. I think to be a 'race' crime, the court would have to determine that the assailants go out with a premeditated intention of attacking someone purely because of their race. And  without sone kind of evidence - phone messages, social media posts, membership of r racist organization, etc...that has to be hard to do.

What could be fixed though, are the sentencing tarrifs for unprovoked assaults. Most don't fesult in custodial sentences - bound over, a fine, maybe a susoended sentence.... It's not good enough really. I've never understood why a nasty swine who for no apparent reason,sets about a bloke standing next to him in a bar will almost certsinly get a lesser fine than would  a Perthshire hill farmer caught driving down his and his neighbours mutual public road on a January night after a single nip over the limit. No justice at all..

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Retsdon

[pinfireman]

On 3/20/2018 at 13:30, TriBsa said:

Our police forces are no longer headed by police who have risen through the ranks on merit as good coppers. Today they are politically appointed managers who have been on all the right PC courses and tick all the right PC boxes. The dogma of multiculturalism must be upheld and believed in. They refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary. Only whites can be racist, and no other group be it racial or religious can be.

Here is a shocking example of denial from one at the very top:

 

We all know what she is.............................**** by name, and **** by nature!

On 3/20/2018 at 17:01, TriBsa said:

But wait, we can't have a problem because we have Police and Crime Commissioners elected to ensure  "that local police meet the needs of the community". A fine idea that was, not. It just became in the main a political bunfight between useless LibLab Con  apparatchiks at £70,000pa+ each. If anything the service is now worse with their oversight . 

For "community" read "ethnic minorities"!

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

It must be difficult to prove though that race per se is the motivating factor in a lot of these crimes. Is it race or is it 'otherness' of some kind or other. It's always been the case that speaking wirh ths wrong accent, or being from the wrong area, or dressing the wrong way, or any number of  minor'othernesses' would render you liable to assault if you were unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  And of course, being the wrong colour or ethnicity can  just be yet another on the same list....in other words, it's  just an excuse for a spontaneeous assault that's underlying cause is really that the assailant or assailants are feeling punchy and looking for someone to do over.  Any excuse. I think to be a 'race' crime, the court would have to determine that the assailants go out with a premeditated intention of attacking someone purely because of their race. And  without sone kind of evidence - phone messages, social media posts, membership of r racist organization, etc...that has to be hard to do.

What could be fixed though, are the sentencing tarrifs for unprovoked assaults. Most don't fesult in custodial sentences - bound over, a fine, maybe a susoended sentence.... It's not good enough really. I've never understood why a nasty swine who for no apparent reason,sets about a bloke standing next to him in a bar will almost certsinly get a lesser fine than would  a Perthshire hill farmer caught driving down his and his neighbours mutual public road on a January night after a single nip over the limit. No justice at all..

 

I agree with most of what you're saying. I don't think many people go out planning to attack someone  JUST because of race, which if you think about it, is a good job really. 

I can't really think of any nations or societies that have the problem where one race dare not leave  their homes, for fear of attack, just because of their race. 

Usually though, its a contributing factor, the assailant 'justifies' the attack because they are 'different' and that applies to any hate crime. 

I do disagree though,  that the courts need to prove that race is a factor, certainly not in open court anyway, if they are found not guilty, the issue is moot, but if found guilty, then they are getting sentenced anyway, so could be factored in via that.

Again, my issue is the selective nature of the label of 'race hate crime', in my experience its rarely used with black or Asian on white attacks, but very often on white on anyone other race. 

To say in Mariams case that it's definitely not, before they've even arrested and interviewed anyone, smacks of rank hypocrisy and double standards. 

 

[olly321]

the police seem frightened to go against some of these foreigners,they seem to have more rights then people born in this country

[KB1]

"These Foreigners"  Born in this country or not, we all have rights as Humans……..

Whilst I understand what you might be alluding to with the overly PC brigade, it only makes matters worse when they are referred to as something less than 'US'.

 

 

[Yellow Bear]

4 minutes ago, KB1 said:

"These Foreigners"  Born in this country or not, we all have rights as Humans……..

Whilst I understand what you might be alluding to with the overly PC brigade, it only makes matters worse when they are referred to as something less than 'US'.

 

 

Whilst I totally agree that the should not be considered less than 'US'  -- there is a growing perception, with some reason, among 'US' that in the eyes of the PC brigade and Snowflakes that they are somehow more than 'US', and are therefore afforded special treatment.  

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

Again, my issue is the selective nature of the label of 'race hate crime', in my experience its rarely used with black or Asian on white attacks, but very often on white on anyone other race. 

To say in Mariams case that it's definitely not, before they've even arrested and interviewed anyone, smacks of rank hypocrisy and double standards. 

 

That is the crux of the matter. The last paragraph says it all.

[KB1]

1 minute ago, Yellow Bear said:

Whilst I totally agree that the should not be considered less than 'US'  -- there is a growing perception, with some reason, among 'US' that in the eyes of the PC brigade and Snowflakes that they are somehow more than 'US', and are therefore afforded special treatment.  

Yes but to be fair, historically they have on the whole been treat in that manner.

I personally think cultural differences which can definitely cause concern or unrest, is often twisted by racists like D.Abbott and her ilk to be something more sinister…...

Its not the fault of the persons affected, but the elected Governments who are afraid of tackling the real issues.

Anyway, I totally get your point. 

7 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

That is the crux of the matter. The last paragraph says it all.

Agree with that...

[TriBsa]

Instead of justice being paramount, I now think we have a policy of containment and appeasement. Our police are afraid of sparking a riot by any arrests in certain communities. So a blind eye is turned to crime lest arrests cause civil disorder. Except white communities, for fed on the soothing balm of premiership football and soap operas we have lost the will to become active inviolved and angry. Expressing that on the streets.

[oowee]

I despair when I read much of what is posted on here. I am so happy that i don'i live in a narrow minded toxic world and i genuinely feel sorry for those on here that do. 

[TriBsa]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

I despair when I read much of what is posted on here. I am so happy that i don'i live in a narrow minded toxic world and i genuinely feel sorry for those on here that do. 

Keep on feeding the crocodile and he may indeed eat you last.

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

I despair when I read much of what is posted on here. I am so happy that i don'i live in a narrow minded toxic world and i genuinely feel sorry for those on here that do. 

That the world can be a toxic place I can't argue with, but what is it you despair of? 

Would you rather racial cohesion in the UK never gets discussed? Like some dirty little secret. 

One or two people have posted some vaguely racist comments, but in general its a healthy discussion about what is for once, a non white race hate crime. 

Damned if we do and damned if we don't I suppose?