Side by Side Club

[Dave at kelton]

8 hours ago, London Best said:

That is true, but a pain to find cartridges.

 

Oddly, the Dickson does not actually have any proof marks, other than a provisional mark. No definitive marks anywhere.

I load my own black powder shells but prefer to use the muzzle loaders anyway. 

[JohnfromUK]

14 minutes ago, Red696 said:

How do I get the firing pins to retract?  I have put the barrels and forend back on but the slide catches the pins, have I screwed it?

I hope not as a £40 gun is never going to worth spending Gunsmith money on.  Feeling gutted

It sounds like you have (either because of not knowing it is a 'problem', or accidentally without knowing) released (i.e. fired) the locks with the gun disassembled.  The locks need to be re-cocked before it can be reassembled correctly.  This is the usual method and I'm assuming will suit your gun.  I am a little surprised that the forend will fit with the locks fired, but maybe some do?  Ones I have come across won't go on.

1. Remove forend and barrels.
2. Identify the two cocking levers that protrude from the front of the knuckle.
3. On a stout wood block, bench etc - place the gun so that the cocking levers can be pushed down with respect to the action.  This is must easily achieved by holding the gun stock and action - triggers uppermost and cocking levers resting on the wood block.  Caution: the pressure needed is quite high and the wood block will get marked, so don't use a piece of furniture! 
4. With the stock and action at about 45 degrees to the vertical, push the underside of the action such that the cocking levers are pushed down.  It is quite a strong spring.
5. If this works you will feel the locks re-cocking and hear the sears click into place.
6. Then reassemble the gun by firstly attaching the barrels and closing them - Then attaching the forend.
7. Test - but with snapcaps.

On most typical older type guns, you should never release either the locks or ejectors unless the gun is correctly assembled (and snap caps are used).  Many are not able to be re-asssembled unless cocked.  This applies to the vast majority of side by side guns, whether boxlock or sidelock (there are a few exceptions, but they are rare or very 'high end'.)

[Weihrauch17]

Some great advice and help on here.

[McSpredder]

1 hour ago, Red696 said:

How do I get the firing pins to retract?  I have put the barrels and forend back on but the slide catches the pins, have I screwed it?

Re-cock the gun (as explained by JohnfromUK), and hopefully the problem will be solved.  

If the firing pin still sticks out, try pushing it back.   It might go back fairly easily, in which case the little retracting spring is probably broken.  

A new spring wouldn’t cost much, but unscrewing the retaining disc (the one with three holes, shown in your photo) can be a tricky job.   Needs a three-pronged key to match, and attempts to do the job using a hammer and punch can make a nasty mess.

[Red696]

@JohnfromUK @McSpredder

 

Gentlemen thank you for the advice, now working perfectly and snap caps staying in place.

Now if only I could remove the buttstock…. Screw holding the plate to the action is solid, spent hours filing down a Narex turnscrew to fit.  I’ll have to tape of the metalwork before refurbing the woodwork.

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Red696 said:

@JohnfromUK @McSpredder

 

Gentlemen thank you for the advice, now working perfectly and snap caps staying in place.

Now if only I could remove the buttstock…. Screw holding the plate to the action is solid, spent hours filing down a Narex turnscrew to fit.  I’ll have to tape of the metalwork before refurbing the woodwork.

Glad you got it sorted.  You are on your own on the screw  Only the person wielding the driver can have any clue if it is going to move or shear ...........

I have a Beretta - and a highly experienced gunsmith couldn't/didn't risk a screw we couldn't shift.  When essential, it may need to be drilled out.

[CoventryWire]

Hello exclusive SxS club,

 

I just wanted to post some pictures of the latest addition to my cabinet.....

She's a William Griffiths of Manchester, Assisted opener, Box Lock Ejector.  I think she was made between 1900 - 1914 (but I could do with some help with this gustimation?) 

Barrels are the original 28inch Whitworth fluid pressed steel, choked 1/4 and 1/4 with a concave rib and a dolls head extension hiding a 3rd bite, still lots of meat left in them and no pitting inside.  Its been re-proofed for Nitro at some point.

Action is an assisted opener, with a Westly Richards top lever, the fences have the signature "Griffiths Flap" used on his higher-end guns, that I absolutely love.  The trigger guard also has a retriever which was another of his signature features.  

The butt has some lovely crisp chequering, including on the sides, with a nice piece of wood however someone has fitted an old kick-eze pad which has dated quite quickly 😞

 

My Dads side of the family are all from Manchester and so this gun has abit of sentimental value for that reason alone (plus I absolutely love it!) and it shoots really well, I've pretty much decided i'm keeping this gun for life, I think I'll really struggle to find something as nice.

 

It would be great if anyone had any further info on Thomas Griffiths or if someone could help me decode all the proof marks!

[Scully]

Very very nice. Do you intend to put steel through it? 

[arjimlad]

@CoventryWire what a beautiful gun. 

[Red696]

On 26/09/2023 at 21:30, JohnfromUK said:

Glad you got it sorted.  You are on your own on the screw  Only the person wielding the driver can have any clue if it is going to move or shear ...........

I have a Beretta - and a highly experienced gunsmith couldn't/didn't risk a screw we couldn't shift.  When essential, it may need to be drilled out.

I got the screw out with the help of a small gas soldering torch heating inside the action.  Loctite ***?  Just not needed in this situation.

[Red696]

Can anyone recommend a resource for the firing pins and springs on Ugartechea 1971 year of manufacture?

[London Best]

14 minutes ago, Red696 said:

Can anyone recommend a resource for the firing pins and springs on Ugartechea 1971 year of manufacture?

You will have to get somebody to make them for you.

It’s not a big job and if I was still working I would have done it for nothing for you.

[Red696]

7 minutes ago, London Best said:

You will have to get somebody to make them for you.

It’s not a big job and if I was still working I would have done it for nothing for you.

Thanks for the reply.  Trying to knock up a tool to remove the retaining discs, once I’ve stripped it I visit a few local engineers

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Red696 said:

Thanks for the reply.  Trying to knock up a tool to remove the retaining discs, once I’ve stripped it I visit a few local engineers

The retaining discs can be hard to remove.  Note that on AyA (not sure if Ugartechea is the same) the screws in the breech that have small gas vents in then are used to lock the discs and must be removed first.  Vented screw can be seen here (photo of AyA from their website)

[Red696]

@JohnfromUK thanks, checked and nothing as high end as that on this cheapie 😂

[Red696]

 

this errr piece of engineering worked fine on the retaining discs. Firing pins having a soak before cleaning and polishing to see how the run in the guides.

[Old Boggy]

23 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

The retaining discs can be hard to remove.  Note that on AyA (not sure if Ugartechea is the same) the screws in the breech that have small gas vents in then are used to lock the discs and must be removed first.  Vented screw can be seen here (photo of AyA from their website)

Well, they say every day is a school day. I’ve seen that before on AYAs and always thought that they were intercepting sears. Many thanks John, for clarifying that.

OB

[JohnfromUK]

15 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

Well, they say every day is a school day. I’ve seen that before on AYAs and always thought that they were intercepting sears.

The intercepting sears are inside the lock plates on (most) sidelock guns.  There are a number of variations on how they are actually implemented, but a tell tale is a second sear lifter piece to engage the trigger blade (usually virtually 'siamesed' with the main sear lifter).  Can be seen here (AyA No 2 image from web) where the two sears are riight at the back bottom of the locks and can be seen to be two parts.  In this case the intercepting sear is alongside the main sear and is the shorter of the two.

This is a different implementation with the intercepting sear catching the actual 'hammer' part of the tumbler.

The 'gas vent' is a long hollow screw that engages with the actual disc of the 'disc set striker' and locks the disc in place.  It is a 'known fact' that the discs can be difficult to remove.

In a few guns the intercepting part is more of an additional safety catch, blocking the lifting of the main sear.  This (as far as I know) was used on a few Beesley pattern self opening locks by both Purdey and AyA.

A few boxlocks also have intercepting safety - but I don't know any of the designs well enough, and being a boxlock, they would be hard to show in a photo.

Edited October 11, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[Old Boggy]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

The intercepting sears are inside the lock plates on (most) sidelock guns.  There are a number of variations on how they are actually implemented, but a tell tale is a second sear lifter piece to engage the trigger blade (usually virtually 'siamesed' with the main sear lifter).  Can be seen here (AyA No 2 image from web) where the two sears are riight at the back bottom of the locks and can be seen to be two parts.  In this case the intercepting sear is alongside the main sear and is the shorter of the two.

This is a different implementation with the intercepting sear catching the actual 'hammer' part of the tumbler.

The 'gas vent' is a long hollow screw that engages with the actual disc of the 'disc set striker' and locks the disc in place.  It is a 'known fact' that the discs can be difficult to remove.

In a few guns the intercepting part is more of an additional safety catch, blocking the lifting of the main sear.  This (as far as I know) was used on a few Beesley pattern self opening locks by both Purdey and AyA.

A few boxlocks also have intercepting safety - but I don't know any of the designs well enough, and being a boxlock, they would be hard to show in a photo.

Many thanks for taking the time and photos to explain that John. I should have taken more notice when reading some of David Baker’s brilliant books as I’m sure that he explained that in one of them.

[Red696]

Thanks to the vast amount of knowledge available on here I’ve been able to partially strip down my Ugartechea and remedy the sticking firing pins.  They are now running smooth as and fully retracting.

I’ve also stripped the stock, steamed the dents and started the reoiling process.  Just need to fire the bloody thing now.

 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Red696 said:

Thanks to the vast amount of knowledge available on here I’ve been able to partially strip down my Ugartechea and remedy the sticking firing pins.  They are now running smooth as and fully retracting.

I’ve also stripped the stock, steamed the dents and started the reoiling process.  Just need to fire the bloody thing now.

 

Looking good.  Incidentally, you used to be able to (and probably still can) get the three pinned type disc tools from Brownells (but I doubt they will be cheap).  Getting these (both 2 and 3 pin types) discs out is often a problem.  To make matters worse, the pin spanners supplied with up market English guns are not a standard size and one maker's spanner won't (necessarily) fit another maker's gun.

[Rock_n_Roll_Outlaw]

I've got an old AYA Matador, single trigger with selectable barrels. It works great but the first trigger pull is significantly heavier (too heavy) if the right hand side barrel is selected to fire first, which I believe is the most open one. With the selector set to fire the left hand side first it feels fine. Why would this be? 

[Spencer s]

I don’t have a answer but I have just bought two matadors and think there spot on really well built 

[enfieldspares]

On 18/10/2023 at 18:23, Rock_n_Roll_Outlaw said:

I've got an old AYA Matador, single trigger with selectable barrels. It works great but the first trigger pull is significantly heavier (too heavy) if the right hand side barrel is selected to fire first, which I believe is the most open one. With the selector set to fire the left hand side first it feels fine. Why would this be? 

Possible a longer "lever" or maybe poor fitting of the parts?

[JR111]

Hi everyone. New to pigeonwatch forum and recently posted asking for advice with regards a s/s. Lots of good advice. I was informed about the s/s club and thought I would show some of the old guns I'm currently using. No monetary value these days but a joy so shoot.  I'm a fan of old guns and look forward to seeing other old guns people have. 
 

ps, I hope that this is where I am to post. ( I was asked!)

Edited December 28, 2023 by JR111