Effectiveness of fibre wadded cartridges at distance

[Perazzishot]

53 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

The guy had Eley all over his gear and his gun, the vid was advertising Eley products, no chance of bias (or professional editing!!) there then! Smoking a normal clay at 100 plus yards? Nah! Consistently? Nah!..........I remain unconvinced!

Eley "Titanium"......what part of the cartridge does that refer to?....is it just the colour of the plating on the cartridge head? If so I think it's arguably misleading, the prominence of the word Titanium, implies more!.........another marketing ploy?

It appears on the Eley Web Page, it is part of their latest advertising campaign so will be governed by the advertising standards so if you feel it is inaccurate make a complaint and if it has been false advertising then they will be fined and told to remove the advert. They will know this so they must be pretty confident that they have the facts to back up the footage? After all the other manufacturers will also be queuing up to dismiss the validity of it and it remains there 3 weeks after it's release. Then again you will never change some peoples minds.

Technology moves on that's why records get broken as things move on and things get and work better. 

Who'd ever thought you would have 1200 metre rifle competitions.

Folk would run under 10 second 100 metres consistently

We would need to bring in rules to make F1 cars go slower

Electric cars would be driverless

But shotgun shooting would get stuck in the 1960's with a maximum kill range of 40 yards. 

🤔😂🤔😂

[Hamster]

Adverts are allowed to push the limits of humour : 

There is no question equipment and people get better but with scatter guns what kills is primarily a game of percentages, at close range the target can't realistically escape through the swarm of pellets, at long range it can. Until they make shells that can keep 100-150 pellets in a 40" pattern at 90 yards you are relying on luck, it's nothing personal just provable facts. 

If they ever do make such a shell I will place large bets that only a handful of people in the whole wide world will have the skill to make use of them, I know this because not many can hit 60 yard clays off towers consistently. 

Edited November 1, 2018 by Hamster

[Ultrastu]

Thing is .if you did make such a cartridge /choke combo .it would be useless at much shorter ranges. 

So a 40 yd pattern would have to be about 8 inches across . Pretty hard to hit a bird with an 8 inch pattern .it would be like shooting a rifle at them .

[Perazzishot]

1 minute ago, Ultrastu said:

Thing is .if you did make such a cartridge /choke combo .it would be useless at much shorter ranges. 

So a 40 yd pattern would have to be about 8 inches across . Pretty hard to hit a bird with an 8 inch pattern .it would be like shooting a rifle at them .

Funny you should say that, the way Geordie has built his latest cartridge that I'm currently using it is totally useless out to 30 yards and what you do hit below 30 yds is literally cut in half. As a poor fox found out a couple of weeks ago!

I honestly don't think they throw any pattern of muchness until about 50 yds. When you see Geordie shoot you can totally understand he has built a cartridge to kill what he wants to shoot and he is up there with one of the best game shots I've had the pleasure to shoot with!

[AYA117]

6 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Thing is .if you did make such a cartridge /choke combo .it would be useless at much shorter ranges. 

So a 40 yd pattern would have to be about 8 inches across . Pretty hard to hit a bird with an 8 inch pattern .it would be like shooting a rifle at them .

You would have to make soup out of 15 yard pigeons        Just kidding 

[JJsDad]

5 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Ok some of the preferred cartridges 

Proper 36/4, 40/3, 42,3

Hull High Pheasant Extreme 36/4 34/4

Gamebore Black Gold 36/4 40/4 42/3

When loaded up with these and a good degree of choke I dread to think what a `normal` 40 yrd Pheasant looks like if well centred. Or is it a case of letting them fly by unsaluted. Perhaps the `Marsh Cowboys` have been right all along and its us `Mr Average` shooters who are wrong. I have no problem with the clay shooter wanting to test himself against extreme range clays but a kill ratio of 8:1 or 10:1 on extreme range Pheasants is a receipt for pricked birds and borders on shooting that most will consider unsporting.

[panoma1]

31 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

It appears on the Eley Web Page, it is part of their latest advertising campaign so will be governed by the advertising standards so if you feel it is inaccurate make a complaint and if it has been false advertising then they will be fined and told to remove the advert. They will know this so they must be pretty confident that they have the facts to back up the footage? After all the other manufacturers will also be queuing up to dismiss the validity of it and it remains there 3 weeks after it's release. Then again you will never change some peoples minds.

Technology moves on that's why records get broken as things move on and things get and work better. 

Who'd ever thought you would have 1200 metre rifle competitions.

Folk would run under 10 second 100 metres consistently

We would need to bring in rules to make F1 cars go slower

Electric cars would be driverless

But shotgun shooting would get stuck in the 1960's with a maximum kill range of 40 yards. 

🤔😂🤔😂

The results of an independent, scientifically controlled test/experiment, rather than a video controlled by the manufacturer, who has a vested interest in selling their product, or someone offering opinion, which flies in the face of many years of experience, would be persuasive.

How does one get the extra range claimed? More powder? Stronger primer? improve the gas seal? Higher velocity? Larger shot?......more powder and/or stronger primer would surely create more pressure and higher velocity?........But if this was excessive, it would blow the pattern, whatever the size of shot!

I understand that components/ballistics are a new ball game, when loading non toxic shot...... but with Lead, pattern kills....the old (earlier than the 60s) saying "little powder much lead, shoots far kills dead".......unless someone knows differently, is still valid!

🤔

[Perazzishot]

17 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

When loaded up with these and a good degree of choke I dread to think what a `normal` 40 yrd Pheasant looks like if well centred. Or is it a case of letting them fly by unsaluted. Perhaps the `Marsh Cowboys` have been right all along and its us `Mr Average` shooters who are wrong. I have no problem with the clay shooter wanting to test himself against extreme range clays but a kill ratio of 8:1 or 10:1 on extreme range Pheasants is a receipt for pricked birds and borders on shooting that most will consider unsporting.

In my time as keeper and shooter I have seen the most appalling teams on every type of quarry shoot at far lower ratios as you have quoted above. 

I can tell you of a shoot last week who had 1100 shots for 83 birds and they are distinctively average nothing over 35 yards they asked for a refund as they hadn't shot 120 as paid for. They had done 6 drives.

I can tell you of an estate in the southern counties where last week they shot 2370 partridge for 2800 shots. They average 2000 every shoot day.

Capabilities of guns are in the hands of those holding the gun.

My fondest memory when I was keepering was a team of yuppies up from London in their porsches for a 200 bird day, none had ever shot in their lives they shot 23 all day and they all ran out or Eley Grand Prix 30/6. 

Many of these famous shoots are now experiencing the exact same thing the people with money want to be seen on them the teams turning up have absolutely no idea what to do with them, no chance any of these birds are getting injured the shot is in a different county to the bird.

 

[Perazzishot]

17 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

The results of an independent, scientifically controlled test/experiment, rather than a video controlled by the manufacturer, who has a vested interest in selling their product, or someone offering opinion, which flies in the face of many years of experience, would be persuasive.

How does one get the extra range claimed? More powder? Stronger primer? improve the gas seal? Higher velocity? Larger shot?......more powder and/or stronger primer would surely create more pressure and higher velocity?........But if this was excessive, it would blow the pattern, whatever the size of shot!

I understand that components/ballistics are a new ball game, when loading non toxic shot...... but with Lead, pattern kills....the old (earlier than the 60s) saying "little powder much lead, shoots far kills dead".......unless someone knows differently, is still valid!

🤔

you are questioning the reputation and integrity of a very respected clay shot and that of a respected and reputable UK company! 

Have a think about what you are typing and thinking to suit your agenda, against that of the company and the person involved and the consequences to them if it was just all made up!

Seriously?????

[sitsinhedges]

It really is beyond me why folk feel the need to shoot birds at silly distances. Seems more about ego than enjoyment.

[AYA117]

12 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

you are questioning the reputation and integrity of a very respected clay shot and that of a respected and reputable UK company! 

Have a think about what you are typing and thinking to suit your agenda, against that of the company and the person involved and the consequences to them if it was just all made up!

Seriously?????

Maybe we should inform Mr Trump as this is a clear case of Fake News   

 

Clearly the Russians are behind it 

Edited November 1, 2018 by AYA117

[JJsDad]

1 hour ago, Perazzishot said:

I can tell you of a shoot last week who had 1100 shots for 83 birds and they are distinctively average nothing over 35 yards they asked for a refund as they hadn't shot 120 as paid for. They had done 6 drives.

Regrettably, I have picked-up and acted as a loader on similar shoots and get no pleasure seeing birds blown to pieces at 10 or 12 yrds. Not my cup-of-tea and I voted with my feet.

Cannot argue with your response to my post but I think your extreme Pheasants are the other end of the spectrum and probably result in many pricked birds, whereas the yuppie with his gear and no idea, usually misses 12 ft behind.

Edited November 1, 2018 by JJsDad

[Diss4111]

14 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

wymberley the propers are available in Fibre and plastic in those loads. So I carry both at all times. (Llechwydygarth has had to go to fibre on a couple of drives due to SSSI's makes things a little trickier)

It was to keep things relative to the equipment being used.

As for chokes with big loads you risk blowing your pattern trying to shove them through tight chokes some of you are starting to show your ignorance on the matter nowadays.

As was said personally to me during this thread by a few folk, it will get personal with a few named "experts" trying to ridicule at every opportunity who will ignore facts in the face of not being to handle actually being wrong. That is pigeon watch for you. 

Another well written article here which once again some will choose to ridicule as previously.

I noticed how the Eley test video has not been ridiculed as yet by those saying 90 yards was not achievable when we now have a major cartridge manufacturer proving it is and promoting as and advertising feature.

https://www.fieldsportsmagazine.com/Shooting-Instruction/choosing-the-right-gun.html

If the drives are SSSI's why are you breaking the law and shooting lead?

[panoma1]

9 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

you are questioning the reputation and integrity of a very respected clay shot and that of a respected and reputable UK company! 

Have a think about what you are typing and thinking to suit your agenda, against that of the company and the person involved and the consequences to them if it was just all made up!

Seriously?????

No, I along with most other people, do not, without question swallow all the claims made in advertisements and do not trust the conclusions of vested interests, especially when it contradicts my own experience over 50 years of shotgun shooting!

I asked how one gets the extra range, you didn't respond! Perhaps you know? Perhaps you have a theory? I would be interested to hear your thoughts!

[Guest cookoff013]

10 hours ago, sitsinhedges said:

It really is beyond me why folk feel the need to shoot birds at silly distances. Seems more about ego than enjoyment.

true, but this day and age, isnt it all about extremes? why shoot pheasants when you can shoot "extreme pheasants?" why not shoot "level ELEVEN" pheasant when the time arises.

i was involved with a shell alittle while ago, not to go too deeply into it but it was just boringly average,  i mean the whole package, itself was just upto 35yard game target. 

i got alot of enjoyment out of that tiny little designed shell. i would never ever consider it to shoot beyond what is deemed "extremely reasonable"

 

...... then i designed a 3" mag fibre 42g loads for those guys who want every bit of advantage for these level eleven targets. 

[AYA117]

1 hour ago, cookoff013 said:

. then i designed a 3" mag fibre 42g loads for those guys who want every bit of advantage for these level eleven targets

Now that is an interesting shell, will it be available in the future ?

[GingerCat]

Bored of waiting for posts of patterns at 100 yards I had a look on YouTube, sure of the Americans having already posted. 

I wasn't disappointed. I found there were questionable patterns at 80 metres with extra full turkey chokes firing massive loads. Yes the odd turkey would have caught in his head, the majority were everywhere  but and the pattern was so big a turkey (let alone a pheasant whose body using that much bigger than a wood pigeon) could have flown through easily and multiple times. On occasion they had a soft fruit behind as a penetration test, this wasn't excatly overpowering with bb load let alone 3 or 4. They concluded the same.

That lends itself to my own observations that the range is just too much, biasd I know but backed by the 10% hit rate you claim. 

Can a modern felt cartridge perform at 50 yards, maybe 55 in a back bored gun -yes. Can you double it to 90 metres and consistently hit them and not cause far more wounding (safe in the knowledge anti will be filming the unnecessary suffering and using it for their own agenda) I think not. 

Each to their own. 

 

[Old farrier]

21 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

I thought he patterns in his farm  yard at 55 yds. ? 

And manages to get 3 pellet strikes on a 5 inch cd disc .

Which lets be honest is pushing it for effective kills at that range let alone 90 🤣

 

Not sure where the 90 yards is coming from 

extreme pheasant days start at the 50 yard mark 

yes there are higher ones and thy do get shot but most are in the 50/60 yards and some stretch themselves and kill the further 

sadly typical of forums stretching it out to 90 yards and beyond 

seems perfectly acceptable to take on 60 yard plus geese 

maybe it’s easier to hit a bigger bird 

all the best 

of 

22 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Bored of waiting for posts of patterns at 100 yards I had a look on YouTube, sure of the Americans having already posted. 

I wasn't disappointed. I found there were questionable patterns at 80 metres with extra full turkey chokes firing massive loads. Yes the odd turkey would have caught in his head, the majority were everywhere  but and the pattern was so big a turkey (let alone a pheasant whose body using that much bigger than a wood pigeon) could have flown through easily and multiple times. On occasion they had a soft fruit behind as a penetration test, this wasn't excatly overpowering with bb load let alone 3 or 4. They concluded the same.

That lends itself to my own observations that the range is just too much, biasd I know but backed by the 10% hit rate you claim. 

Can a modern felt cartridge perform at 50 yards, maybe 55 in a back bored gun -yes. Can you double it to 90 metres and consistently hit them and not cause far more wounding (safe in the knowledge anti will be filming the unnecessary suffering and using it for their own agenda) I think not. 

Each to their own. 

 

Nothing to stop you from doing your own pattern tests 

you seem to believe Americans when the Cartriges don’t perform but not Eley when they say they do 

all the best 

of 

[GingerCat]

3 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Not sure where the 90 yards is coming from 

extreme pheasant days start at the 50 yard mark 

yes there are higher ones and thy do get shot but most are in the 50/60 yards and some stretch themselves and kill the further 

sadly typical of forums stretching it out to 90 yards and beyond 

seems perfectly acceptable to take on 60 yard plus geese 

maybe it’s easier to hit a bigger bird 

all the best 

of 

Nothing to stop you from doing your own pattern tests 

you seem to believe Americans when the Cartriges don’t perform but not Eley when they say they do 

all the best 

of 

I won't be patterning anything at 80 metres. The results are predictable and already available.  Should any cart manufactures produce a cart that reliably patterns at that range I'm all ears. But I want to see the proof and not marketing hype. 

To add, i want to see a pattern of 40+% in the 40 inch circle. Not one with gaps bigger than my chest of draws and hopeful of the odd stray pellet winging a bird. 

 

All the best

[wymberley]

14 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

I won't be patterning anything at 80 metres. The results are predictable and already available.  Should any cart manufactures produce a cart that reliably patterns at that range I'm all ears. But I want to see the proof and not marketing hype. 

To add, i want to see a pattern of 40+% in the 40 inch circle. Not one with gaps bigger than my chest of draws and hopeful of the odd stray pellet winging a bird. 

 

All the best

Couple of times this has cropped up now - is it a typo? Because if not, 40% in the 40" isn't going top cut the mustard. Where has that diameter suddenly sprung up from and what's its relevance?

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, GingerCat said:

Bored of waiting for posts of patterns at 100 yards I had a look on YouTube, sure of the Americans having already posted. 

I wasn't disappointed. I found there were questionable patterns at 80 metres with extra full turkey chokes firing massive loads. Yes the odd turkey would have caught in his head, the majority were everywhere  but and the pattern was so big a turkey (let alone a pheasant whose body using that much bigger than a wood pigeon) could have flown through easily and multiple times. On occasion they had a soft fruit behind as a penetration test, this wasn't excatly overpowering with bb load let alone 3 or 4. They concluded the same.

That lends itself to my own observations that the range is just too much, biasd I know but backed by the 10% hit rate you claim. 

Can a modern felt cartridge perform at 50 yards, maybe 55 in a back bored gun -yes. Can you double it to 90 metres and consistently hit them and not cause far more wounding (safe in the knowledge anti will be filming the unnecessary suffering and using it for their own agenda) I think not. 

Each to their own. 

 

Yes but you're forgetting the magical shot string., you know, like when this 3 dimensional cloud of pellets arrives at the point in the sky occupied by the bird/clay and then all of a sudden everything goes slomo like the scene when Homer munches through all the crisps. 😂 😂 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Hamster

[Hamster]

8 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Couple of times this has cropped up now - is it a typo? Because if not, 40% in the 40" isn't going top cut the mustard. Where has that diameter suddenly sprung up from and what's its relevance?

That'd be me 😁 seeing as some people like to make up stuff I thought I'd do the same and come up with my own completely baseless rhetorics 😄. You see since a  30"  circle is a standardised way of measuring choke performance at 40 yards I thought applying 40" at 90 yards just sounded plausible and clever seeing as the pheasant is after all a fairly large bird. Ultimately though it is pure fresh air logic. 🤗

[GingerCat]

15 minutes ago, Hamster said:

That'd be me 😁 seeing as some people like to make up stuff I thought I'd do the same and come up with my own completely baseless rhetorics 😄. You see since a  30"  circle is a standardised way of measuring choke performance at 40 yards I thought applying 40" at 90 yards just sounded plausible and clever seeing as the pheasant is after all a fairly large bird. Ultimately though it is pure fresh air logic. 🤗

Given the silly distance I thought I was being fair.

[wymberley]

On 31/10/2018 at 08:47, Perazzishot said:

I couldn't tell you I don't get caught up in all the science of FPS/Patterns/Chokes. I stick with what is recommended and works for me.

The 95 metre Clay shot at Cumbria Clay Shoot was smashed using a 28/7.5 Kent Velocity.

I try to be as open minded as possible, but I fear you're not helping. You clearly state that you have no idea of how your gun/cartridge achieves what it  apparently does and are therefore unable to give any reason for that performance. Several pertinent questions have been asked of you to which you have not replied. When answering some points raised you provide information which has no relevance to the topic.

Range is totally academic here in as much as it is generally accepted throughout the more taditional shooting world that on average and in order to produce a clean kill as far as can be reasonably expected, then some 60 pellets are required in the effective inner 20" circle. We're talking pheasant here and that figure caters for both hens and cocks. We'll accept that the energy is sufficient.

Consequently, could you have a word with your peers and see if they can come up with the answer which will provide the necessary evidence enabling you to convince us all of the validty of your argument without further ado?

Edited November 2, 2018 by wymberley
incorrect figure amended

[TIGHTCHOKE]

And the rest of us poor mortals will stick with what we know, shoot to the best of our ability to our chosen range and thoroughly enjoy shooting a few pheasants.