Effectiveness of fibre wadded cartridges at distance

[Ultrastu]

Just now, yickdaz said:

I don't see how that works either something going slower will cause more damage than something going fast the law of physics  would say otherwise

Ah .no not less damage .im refering to penetration. Not the same thing. 

[Salopian]

Taking this a little further , would it be correct to assume that all the various films on Youtube including the Dave Carrie ones are not shooting at the ranges they say they are or how far they seem due to the camera shortening the apparent distance ?

Are the very high birds shown at the various shoots not as high as we think due to an inability to correctly range judge?

IF they are in excess of 70 yards up , can someone explain the success rate please?

[Smokersmith]

They edit out the misses.

[Salopian]

If I was paying £4000 plus per day I would be wanting to hit quiet a few birds , not have my misses edited out.

[wymberley]

18 minutes ago, Salopian said:

Taking this a little further , would it be correct to assume that all the various films on Youtube including the Dave Carrie ones are not shooting at the ranges they say they are or how far they seem due to the camera shortening the apparent distance ?

Are the very high birds shown at the various shoots not as high as we think due to an inability to correctly range judge?

IF they are in excess of 70 yards up , can someone explain the success rate please?

Taking it just a tad further yet again; it's a crying shame that the BRL was on a finite mission. Had it been allowed to continue with all stakeholders chipping in and with possible liaison with the RMCS as required, then many of our debates - this, back-boring, etc etc would have been resolved.

Ultrastu is still fighting his corner I see and due credit to him. Mind you I'd still like to see my question re SUT answered. To make it easier, there's no need to worry about the "T" as it's a constant and relates to the target penetration factor.

[Smokersmith]

Yep ... more seriously .... he uses 50g of 3’s and I personally believe that once you get to that shot size, the ‘normal’ rules on shot strikes change as the bigger pellets cause more trauma.

[Hamster]

Many are wounded, some are killed with vital areas being hit and many more are killed by gravity, throw in the reality that we can't judge range accurately staring at the sky and you have your answer. 

I've said this before, if you fire at "high" birds with a magazine of rimfire ammo loaded with 131 bullets 😏 you will pull a few down.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

40 minutes ago, Salopian said:

If I was paying £4000 plus per day I would be wanting to hit quiet a few birds , not have my misses edited out.

Some would see that as a distinct advantage!

Back to the bachelor lifestyle.

[Stonepark]

6 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Yep ... more seriously .... he uses 50g of 3’s and I personally believe that once you get to that shot size, the ‘normal’ rules on shot strikes change as the bigger pellets cause more trauma.

The pellet can only inflict trauma in relation to the energy it is carrying. Whether it is a no9 carrying 1.18ftlb at 20 yards or a no3 at 70 yards with 1.2ftlbs they will both inflict almost the same trauma to ballistic gel. 1.13inches versus 1.20 inches respectively.

The no 9 is faster at 840fps and has less friction on entry but dumps energy faster and the no3 is slower 460fps and has more friction on entry but takes longer to dump energy.

In reality this means from a trauma point of view their advantages/disadvantages even out and their effects on animals will be similar if hit.

You will therefore still require the same number of strikes to reliably kill a pheasant with pellets of 1.2ftlbs no matter the range and therefore the same pattern density.

 

On the other hand 50g no 3 at 60 yards full choke has 1.85ftlbs, 78 pellets in pattern giving penetration of 1.42 inches and a pattern knock down power of 144 ftlbs which may just be adequate and is the path that the Americans are going down (relying on 1 or 2 pellets with sufficent penetration and trauma) to kill rather than higher number of multiple strikes at a lesser penetration.

 

 

[Smokersmith]

Thanks for making the point in a clearer way 👍

[Vince Green]

6 hours ago, figgy said:

As most shotguns throw the pattern high it should be bang on at distance.

It thtows high to be bang on at 40yds not 70yds its slowing down and dropping fast by then 

 

3 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

We had this debate a couple of months ago ......

But basically .give a projectile a low bc and a high  velocity and it will penetrate less than a high bc at lower velocity .

There are loads of utube vids confirming this over and over again .

 

But a round piece of shot has about the worst BC you can get.

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

The pellet can only inflict trauma in relation to the energy it is carrying. Whether it is a no9 carrying 1.18ftlb at 20 yards or a no3 at 70 yards with 1.2ftlbs they will both inflict almost the same trauma to ballistic gel. 1.13inches versus 1.20 inches respectively.

The no 9 is faster at 840fps and has less friction on entry but dumps energy faster and the no3 is slower 460fps and has more friction on entry but takes longer to dump energy.

In reality this means from a trauma point of view their advantages/disadvantages even out and their effects on animals will be similar if hit.

You will therefore still require the same number of strikes to reliably kill a pheasant with pellets of 1.2ftlbs no matter the range and therefore the same pattern density.

 

On the other hand 50g no 3 at 60 yards full choke has 1.85ftlbs, 78 pellets in pattern giving penetration of 1.42 inches and a pattern knock down power of 144 ftlbs which may just be adequate and is the path that the Americans are going down (relying on 1 or 2 pellets with sufficent penetration and trauma) to kill rather than higher number of multiple strikes at a lesser penetration.

 

 

And how fast is your ballistic gel coming towards you? 

I applaud your theory however unless you build in the speed of the approaching bird it’s not the true picture 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

The pellet can only inflict trauma in relation to the energy it is carrying. Whether it is a no9 carrying 1.18ftlb at 20 yards or a no3 at 70 yards with 1.2ftlbs they will both inflict almost the same trauma to ballistic gel. 1.13inches versus 1.20 inches respectively.

The no 9 is faster at 840fps and has less friction on entry but dumps energy faster and the no3 is slower 460fps and has more friction on entry but takes longer to dump energy.

In reality this means from a trauma point of view their advantages/disadvantages even out and their effects on animals will be similar if hit.

You will therefore still require the same number of strikes to reliably kill a pheasant with pellets of 1.2ftlbs no matter the range and therefore the same pattern density.

 

On the other hand 50g no 3 at 60 yards full choke has 1.85ftlbs, 78 pellets in pattern giving penetration of 1.42 inches and a pattern knock down power of 144 ftlbs which may just be adequate and is the path that the Americans are going down (relying on 1 or 2 pellets with sufficent penetration and trauma) to kill rather than higher number of multiple strikes at a lesser penetration.

 

 

Swings and roundabouts surely. Our traditional 3 or 4 pellet strikes in the vulnerable area and having sufficient energy have always required 6 or 7 pellets on average to ensure the strike rate is met as far as is reasonably certain on every shot. The American ballistician called in to produce the BASC version of events says 1 or 2 pellets will do the job but this means striking not the vulnerable but the vital area. Because this is smaller, then again 6 or 7 strikes on average are necessary. Consequently, if you can't meet the density requirement, then no matter what size shot you're using and however much energy it carries, you're stuffed.

[wymberley]

7 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

And how fast is your ballistic gel coming towards you? 

I applaud your theory however unless you build in the speed of the approaching bird it’s not the true picture 

Yep, an incoming 30mph bird will add an impressive extra 44 ft/sec to the effective velocity of the pellets whose speed is already measured in 100s of them.

[Smokersmith]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

then no matter what size shot you're using and however much energy it carries, you're stuffed.

If I were a cock bird I’d rather get a piece of no6 through my shoulder than a .22 bullet.

What drives that comment is the number of geese I’ve felled and examined with minimal strikes of BBB steel.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Smokersmith

[wymberley]

6 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

If I were a cock bird I’d rather get a piece of no6 through my shoulder then a .22 bullet.

It wouldn't be your lucky day. Just one thing after the other. Couldn't resist.

Too true. I could probably live with that. But sod hitting the ground because I can no longer fly and this just made the pain worse. Then I have to run like hell so them lot down there with pointy stick things can't find me even with their stupid dogs and find somewhere to lay up until I finally die either in pain or from starvation provided that damned Reynard doesn't find me first. Now that is going to hurt.

[Ultrastu]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

And how fast is your ballistic gel coming towards you? 

I applaud your theory however unless you build in the speed of the approaching bird it’s not the true picture 

The fact the pigeon may be coming to wards you at 30 mph is almost insignificant  30 mph equals 44 fps .

The pellet loses 44 fps between 30 and 33 yds  or 20 to 22 yds. 

 

 

[GingerCat]

I saw a YouTube vid and read and article of experiments with identical pellets from identical 12ftlb guns fired over the same distances at a crono. 

The .177 bled energy quicker than the .22 and the muzzle energy was almost the same throughout  however at 50 metres the .22 was travelling faster and retaining more energy and consequently got to the target milliseconds faster.

I don't think it would make much terminal difference to the quarry but it was interesting all the same. 

The two books I have on shotgun with a chapter on ballistics and pattern  both agree that pattern fails before the pellet loses too much energy to be effective. 

As a foot note I recently shot a going away pigeon and it was a measured (with my size 10's) 50 yards. The bird dropped instantly and was added to the pattern. 

Upon breasting the bird it had a single pellet entering below the breasts that travelled along 3 inches and exited via the breast. Not a songle other piece of shot touched tbe bird and he was rather unlucky. That's quite some penetration from a single size 6 piece of shot and quite a big gap in the pattern (or a pants shot with a lucky pellet?).  

 

[Ultrastu]

That proves pigeons have some soft bits and some very hard bits .and some bits that even  hit with a sledge hammer wont kill the bird .

[Old farrier]

36 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

The fact the pigeon may be coming to wards you at 30 mph is almost insignificant  30 mph equals 44 fps .

The pellet loses 44 fps between 30 and 33 yds  or 20 to 22 yds. 

 

 

And at 65 to 70 yards ? 

44 fps 30 mph is hardly insignificant and it could easily be 88fps on a breezy day 

please feel free to move your hand at 44 FPS into a drawing pin and see how insignificant it is 

have you ever had the opportunity to shoot high pheasants? 

[Hamster]

11 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

And at 65 to 70 yards ? 

44 fps 30 mph is hardly insignificant and it could easily be 88fps on a breezy day 

please feel free to move your hand at 44 FPS into a drawing pin and see how insignificant it is 

have you ever had the opportunity to shoot high pheasants? 

😂 👎

Hardly a relevant example ! Have you ever been stung by falling pellets ? That's prolly worse than what 44 fps would feel like. 

[wymberley]

21 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Wrong wrong wrong motty .

You have it all wrong .

Lets break it down .

2 lead pellets ok .

Different sizes  = different weights lets say 3 mm   and 2.6mm  - so number 4 and no 6 shot. Fired at 1350 fps using a bc of 0.023 gs drag law  the no6 at 30 yds would have 2 fpe and be going 750 fps .the no 4 using the same bc (for simplicity , as it wont differ much) to have 2 fpe at 30 yds it would have to be going at 600 fps .

Penetration -

Now the no4 has 65%  more mass and a lot more momentum than the no6. It also has the advantage of slower velocity (which helps with penetration ) but a disadvantage of a greater surface area .15 % bigger .

The 2 factors it has in its favour (for increased penetration ) mass 65 % , and lower velocity 25% less  .out weight the 1 advantage the no6 pellet has which is to be 15 % smaller in size .

Hence the heavier slower no4 pellet penetrates deeper into the medium .

This is the same for ALL ballistics of the same shape and anatomy .

 

No answer yet to the P=SUT so using your own figures:

To make it realistic, 0.2 ft/lbs has been deducted from the energies given to cater for fur/feather but the pellet boundary layer has been taken as zero. The pellet velocities have been amended accordingly to reflect the threshold energy loss of the 0.2 ft/lbs. The No 6 will penetrate 3.54 and the No 4, 3.23. Had you not have pleaded simplicity with the No 4 BC then this latter figure would have been 3.46. However, this matters not as either way the penetration levels are actually the reverse of those stated.

Edited October 18, 2018 by wymberley
critical letter missing

[Ultrastu]

I dont belive that .

Or have any idea what  psut is  ? 

[wymberley]

8 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

I dont belive that .

Or have any idea what  psut is  ? 

Just out of interest if you take a lead No 7 and a steel No 3 (but this is UK shot size, ie 0.128" which I believe would make it a USA No 4) each having 1.4 ft/lbs and apply the same criteria as my last post then you probably won't believe that the lead 7 has a 0.8" penetration edge over the steel - 2.9 against 2.1.

[Saltings]

On ‎17‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 09:31, Salopian said:

Any experience using fibres at long distance Pheasants?

I am informed by an 'expert' that fibres are not effective at Pheasants at ranges over 70 yards.

I cannot comment on this matter myself as I am very happy with the size of my testicles and have no wish to show off .

Any comments gentlemen?

salesmen will tell you anything to empty your wallet effective range of a shotgun is 30 to 50 yrds depending on how good you are beyond that cripples / pricked birds (not sporting) and a lot of people cannot judge distance against a skyline as no reference points grass field woodland you have reference to judge distance and even then 25yards sometimes becomes 40yrds   old school   70/80yrd shots were the domain of foreshore shooters using 8 bores and 4 bores and even then spray and pray    something may fall out 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Saltings