Sec 1 firearms

[TomV]

I've been a shot gun certificate holder for 10 years and I'd like to put in my sec 1 when my certificate is up for renewal this year. I know you need to show good reason to have one. If I join a local rifle club does that constitute good enough reason? I'd also like to get into stalking this year. any pointers appreciated

[walshie]

You'd need to be a full member of a shooting club to show good reason. The probationary period at these clubs can be 3 to 6 months, then when you're a full member you would only have your guns conditioned for target shooting. Getting some permission to shoot over some land would be a quicker first step. 

[buze]

Some "advise" from someone going thru the same process -- don't join a club. From what I've seen it's the best way to have way more restriction and hurdles than you can possibly imagine...

From what I've heard from many people and some instructors who have an FAC, basically the idea is:

1) Own land or can secure permission on land where you can shoot on and has some vermin. That'll give you .17HMR and/or .22's all day long, if the land is large enough, and is suitable of course. That could also be use for zeroing bigger calibers.

2) To get a larger caliber, you'd need permission to shoot on land for deer. Now THAT you can't possibly get without experience of course, you need to break it down into:

2.1) Get experience with bigger calibers. Best way is very likely commercial stalking and range work. We've started doing that; basically you go out of an experience stalker (after quite a bit of range work, if necessary) and stalk, and ultimately he sets up the gun, or sets up with you on high seats and you get your shot. You get to learn/see gralocking and you get a chance to get a carcass to bring home for the freezer. It's /actually/ pretty afordable, compared to a driven pheasant day.

2.2) DSC1 preparation and exam. If you have that, it opens a lot of doors, and you show 'justification' for a bigger caliber rifle(s). Having booked stalking, receipts, and recommendations from the various places you've been at will help a lot. 

2.3) Apply for FAC, you might have then justification for a larger caliber, and an open ticket.

2.4) Then you can go and hope for finding a permission... long shot tho (ahah)

To help with #2.1, extensive use of the air rifle and practice the various stance will help no end, so that means perhaps join a club for /that/ -- or have a large enough garden.

Note that I'm a complete newbie at this, but going thru the same process, so I've been looking around a lot and asked a lot of questions :-)

 

[TomV]

6 minutes ago, buze said:

Some "advise" from someone going thru the same process -- don't join a club. From what I've seen it's the best way to have way more restriction and hurdles than you can possibly imagine...

From what I've heard from many people and some instructors who have an FAC, basically the idea is:

1) Own land or can secure permission on land where you can shoot on and has some vermin. That'll give you .17HMR and/or .22's all day long, if the land is large enough, and is suitable of course. That could also be use for zeroing bigger calibers.

2) To get a larger caliber, you'd need permission to shoot on land for deer. Now THAT you can't possibly get without experience of course, you need to break it down into:

2.1) Get experience with bigger calibers. Best way is very likely commercial stalking and range work. We've started doing that; basically you go out of an experience stalker (after quite a bit of range work, if necessary) and stalk, and ultimately he sets up the gun, or sets up with you on high seats and you get your shot. You get to learn/see gralocking and you get a chance to get a carcass to bring home for the freezer. It's /actually/ pretty afordable, compared to a driven pheasant day.

2.2) DSC1 preparation and exam. If you have that, it opens a lot of doors, and you show 'justification' for a bigger caliber rifle(s). Having booked stalking, receipts, and recommendations from the various places you've been at will help a lot. 

2.3) Apply for FAC, you might have then justification for a larger caliber, and an open ticket.

2.4) Then you can go and hope for finding a permission... long shot tho (ahah)

To help with #2.1, extensive use of the air rifle and practice the various stance will help no end, so that means perhaps join a club for /that/ -- or have a large enough garden.

Note that I'm a complete newbie at this, but going thru the same process, so I've been looking around a lot and asked a lot of questions :-)

Thanks for the info, all really helpful! Seems to be quite a few criteria you need to satisfy these days. I've used .22 and .17 before but at the moment dont have any permission for vermin control hence why I thought going down club route would be a better option then get experience and look at getting variation for vermin as and when permission comes up. have you put in for yours yet have you got permissions on which to shoot?

[bruno22rf]

Most likely be quicker to get some permission first then the world is your oyster. 

[Rim Fire]

I put in for a 243 for deer  and got it no DSC1 or any other bits of paper i also got a 308 for boar but on my ticket they put it down  for Deer.

Having said that i did have land to shoot over i dont think you need all that  criteria to apply just permission to shoot  Deer 

[Scully]

I think much depends on the whim of your areas FEO. My nephew and his mates gained their rf and cf S1’s on first time applications merely because they had vast areas of land to shoot over.

[labstaff]

As scully says depends on your feo. For some having a receipt to say you have stalking booked can constitute a good reason. 

[Dekers]

4 hours ago, Scully said:

I think much depends on the whim of your areas FEO. My nephew and his mates gained their rf and cf S1’s on first time applications merely because they had vast areas of land to shoot over.

Quite!  There are NO RULES, only generalisations and guidance!

[Rewulf]

Join a club.
If you just get a land  permission, IF being the operative word, they will ask you what experience you have with what calibre you put in for.
If you have no 'proven' experience this could go against your application, almost definitely when it comes to centrefire.

Joining a club and using various club rifles, gives you that experience in safe handling, ballistic knowledge and advice.
Most sec 1 clubs will give a shorter probation due to the fact you are already a sec 2 licence holder.

Being a full member of a club, and of good character gives you 99% chance of being granted the calibres your club supports.
Getting land afterwards for suitable smallbore  calibres is then more of a formality, again centrefires may require more experience or mentoring.

Patience is a virtue when it comes to these things 😄

[Rim Fire]

Where dose this mentoring for CF rifles come from no such thing if you got land to shoot vermin or Deer on that gives you good reason to hold what calibers you apply for 

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Where dose this mentoring for CF rifles come from no such thing if you got land to shoot vermin or Deer on that gives you good reason to hold what calibers you apply for 

In theory, yes that should be the case.
In practice, across many force areas, they are increasingly asking for mentoring for centrefire grants.
Its not in the HO guidlines, but neither is a lot of things firearms seem to insist on. like the doctors letter thing.

[Rim Fire]

So it is another bit of blackmail we are accepting which will become the norm where  will it stop probably when there is enough red tape you wont bother applying  

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Rim Fire said:

So it is another bit of blackmail we are accepting which will become the norm where  will it stop probably when there is enough red tape you wont bother applying  

Nail, head , hit.

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

In theory, yes that should be the case.
In practice, across many force areas, they are increasingly asking for mentoring for centrefire grants.
Its not in the HO guidlines, but neither is a lot of things firearms seem to insist on. like the doctors letter thing.

I was specifically told for my area (Avon) when i offered mentoring that whilst they had previously supported this, they now had the opposite view and would not consider it in an application. They asked for a C/F course (£100) which turned out to be well worth the money. I think Scully sums it up it's largely down to the force area and what they like to see. 

Starting point for the OP must be what does he want a rifle for? Does he want to punch paper or shoot vermin / deer?

[TomV]

8 hours ago, Rim Fire said:

I put in for a 243 for deer  and got it no DSC1 or any other bits of paper i also got a 308 for boar but on my ticket they put it down  for Deer.

Having said that i did have land to shoot over i dont think you need all that  criteria to apply just permission to shoot  Deer 

i assume you had permissions on which to shoot that you included on your application. if i book a dsc that may constitute as good enough good reason?

[Rim Fire]

I did have permission as i said the bottom line of my post. But  if you do a couple of paid stalks with a proper stalking company and keep receipts  i see no reason why you cant get a stalking rifle that is how it used to be but i expect thats been done away with now    

28 minutes ago, TomV said:

i assume you had permissions on which to shoot that you included on your application. if i book a dsc that may constitute as good enough good reason?

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Rim Fire

[Walker570]

It has not ceased to amaze me how the shooting fraternity , in particular rifle shooters have dream walked into a situation where more and more restrictions are put on them.

Initially you need to have some stalking and that can be a piece of property which has deer and on which you have permission to shoot  OR you can phone round the commercial stalkers offering days and book some stalking with them producing letters/e mails to that effect.   No requirement for expensive DSC couses or any other courses.  If you book with a pukka pro stalker he/she will have you shoot a group before venturing out. If they don't then they are not worth their salt and find someone else. 

You don't need a DSC this or that to kill a deer, plenty of books and toutube videos will show you how, but if you have gutted a rabbit then a deer is just that bit bigger and checking out the condition of the animal is no different whatsover if you intend eating the rabbit.

I spent many hours guiding people and I had one or two who couldn't wait to tell me they had passed their DSC2 but after just 15 mins on the ground I would not have let them out of my sight and made my mind up they should not be in possesion of a firearm.  

1.  Get some ground(not easy)

2.  Book some stalking  (very easy) tell the Pro that you are a beginner and willing to learn.  Usually you will learn a lot in your first outing.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Walker570

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

I was specifically told for my area (Avon) when i offered mentoring that whilst they had previously supported this, they now had the opposite view and would not consider it in an application. They asked for a C/F course (£100) which turned out to be well worth the money. I think Scully sums it up it's largely down to the force area and what they like to see. 

Starting point for the OP must be what does he want a rifle for? Does he want to punch paper or shoot vermin / deer?

Absolutely  on all points.

[Rim Fire]

52 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

It has not ceased to amaze me how the shooting fraternity , in particular rifle shooters have dream walked into a situation where more and more restrictions are put on them.

Initially you need to have some stalking and that can be a piece of property which has deer and on which you have permission to shoot  OR you can phone round the commercial stalkers offering days and book some stalking with them producing letters/e mails to that effect.   No requirement for expensive DSC couses or any other courses.  If you book with a pukka pro stalker he/she will have you shoot a group before venturing out. If they don't then they are not worth their salt and find someone else. 

You don't need a DSC this or that to kill a deer, plenty of books and toutube videos will show you how, but if you have gutted a rabbit then a deer is just that bit bigger and checking out the condition of the animal is no different whatsover if you intend eating the rabbit.

I spent many hours guiding people and I had one or two who couldn't wait to tell me they had passed their DSC2 but after just 15 mins on the ground I would not have let them out of my sight and made my mind up they should not be in possesion of a firearm.  

1.  Get some ground(not easy)

2.  Book some stalking  (very easy) tell the Pro that you are a beginner and willing to learn.  Usually you will learn a lot in your first outing.

Exactly that 👍

 

[CharlieT]

1 minute ago, Rim Fire said:

Exactly that 👍

 

You just beat me to it.

Point 2 is the way forward for the OP.

get a few paid stalks under your belt and you will get your FAC.

[TomV]

3 hours ago, Walker570 said:

It has not ceased to amaze me how the shooting fraternity , in particular rifle shooters have dream walked into a situation where more and more restrictions are put on them.

Initially you need to have some stalking and that can be a piece of property which has deer and on which you have permission to shoot  OR you can phone round the commercial stalkers offering days and book some stalking with them producing letters/e mails to that effect.   No requirement for expensive DSC couses or any other courses.  If you book with a pukka pro stalker he/she will have you shoot a group before venturing out. If they don't then they are not worth their salt and find someone else. 

You don't need a DSC this or that to kill a deer, plenty of books and toutube videos will show you how, but if you have gutted a rabbit then a deer is just that bit bigger and checking out the condition of the animal is no different whatsover if you intend eating the rabbit.

I spent many hours guiding people and I had one or two who couldn't wait to tell me they had passed their DSC2 but after just 15 mins on the ground I would not have let them out of my sight and made my mind up they should not be in possesion of a firearm.  

1.  Get some ground(not easy)

2.  Book some stalking  (very easy) tell the Pro that you are a beginner and willing to learn.  Usually you will learn a lot in your first outing.

My renewal is up in a few months, im in the process of doing the paperwork. In an ideal world Id like to apply for sec 1 at the same time as my Sec 2 renewal. Do you have any recommendations for booking stalking opps?

[raphael262]

its all down to experience , some people will only get RF on first time app , i got rf , cf and high capacity shotgun as well as an Open ticket on my grant but that was because i could show plenty of experience and valid reason for calibers 

[labstaff]

Yorkshire deer stalking isn't far from you and is a reputable stalker.

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, raphael262 said:

its all down to experience , some people will only get RF on first time app , i got rf , cf and high capacity shotgun as well as an Open ticket on my grant but that was because i could show plenty of experience and valid reason for calibers 

I have to disagree. Whilst experience will certainly help and in all cases you will need valid reasons for each firearm, the role and discretion of the local firearms team has as much to do with what they will allow as the quality of the application.