Article on Fibre versus Plastic

[welshwarrior]

Personally I’d like to see CPSA FITAS ISSF all ban plastic go fibre only it would still be a level playing field the good cartridges makers will catch up very quickly and I doubt you’ll see any drop in scores that technology will quickly follow into game shooting as most cartridges loaded will be fibre the plastics will go stangent then vanish. 

[Continental Shooter]

21 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

Really? That's not my findings from reloading. Plastic loses energy compressing the piston section. With the exact same load a plastic wad is slower.

 

seen you're learning from me to skip posts you don't like.... 

do you actually have proof or is just gut instinct (which doesn't belong to scientific disciplines like ballistic)?

this might be your feelings as findings need to be backed by proof.  This is definitely not the industry's findings (backed by hundreds of daily tests) and as far a s i know they pay scientist to develop load and components whilst, judging from other posts.... you only base your assumption (another thing that doesn't belong to scientific disciplines) or gut feelings.

As i mentioned before, the piston is used to create a boiling room (bigger or smaller depending on the wad type, compound or design) and ensure powder burn efficiently and pressure is adjusted.

I have a whole essay on wads which i presented for my exam and had been written with the help of some of the leading manufacturers and 100s of test produced as evidence of my essay. I can pass it to you for a bit of reading ... 

 

[Guest cookoff013]

3 minutes ago, Continental Shooter said:

seen you're learning from me to skip posts you don't like.... 

do you actually have proof or is just gut instinct (which doesn't belong to scientific disciplines like ballistic)?

this might be your feelings as findings need to be backed by proof.  This is definitely not the industry's findings (backed by hundreds of daily tests) and as far a s i know they pay scientist to develop load and components whilst, judging from other posts.... you only base your assumption (another thing that doesn't belong to scientific disciplines) or gut feelings.

As i mentioned before, the piston is used to create a boiling room (bigger or smaller depending on the wad type, compound or design) and ensure powder burn efficiently and pressure is adjusted.

I have a whole essay on wads which i presented for my exam and had been written with the help of some of the leading manufacturers and 100s of test produced as evidence of my essay. I can pass it to you for a bit of reading ... 

 

 

yes please.

my assays are just testing general stuff, the last assays i keep going on about was pushing the powder hard, and working out how much energy is there, 
i should start testing again. but they cost a fortune.

[propercartridges]

17 hours ago, dipper said:

I’ve never used cartridges manufactured by George.Everyone who has tried them seems happy with them.If thay became widely available.I will try a couple of thousand.And a lot of people I know would use them.So come one George let’s have more outlets

i am in the bolton area at least once every 3 weeks to get powder out of storage   we can meet and deliver let me know your requirements      best phone 07714 323 909 cheers   george

[BrowningDJC]

I would like to see everyone who shoots over farmland voluntarily stop using plastic. 

Yes fibre may be a few quid more, but it would show the shooting community care about the land they shoot over. 

Shooting plastic wads is no different to leaving empty cases in my opinion.

[propercartridges]

On 11/02/2019 at 18:39, Continental Shooter said:

it's not just gamebore and it's not just the machine

try fitting a tight fiber wad into a hull and see if it drops down straight away; most time than not it won't 

in a factory chain this can cause all sorts of issues and requires more manual intervention than plastic wads will; this also translate in more personelle required to assist in the production

Aslo, fiber wad require an extra bit of powder to maintain the same pressure/speed as a plastic wad.

all this drives the fiber wadded cartridges price higher than it does for plastic wad shells.

 

my machine loads 12000 per hour but on fibre   i run at 8000 per hour    nice and slow   why     to get good accurate  cartridges produced   the over powder card is mostly to  blame tipping on edge     4 carts a second is fast enough    for me and lifting a slab every 1 minute and 20 seconds to put on pallet is quite ample for me on a good shift of 80 000 good acurate loads is all i need    let the others do what they want     i can also buy the 15000 machine but i dont want it to run that fast     cheers   george

[Continental Shooter]

1 hour ago, propercartridges said:

my machine loads 12000 per hour but on fibre   i run at 8000 per hour    nice and slow   why     to get good accurate  cartridges produced   the over powder card is mostly to  blame tipping on edge     4 carts a second is fast enough    for me and lifting a slab every 1 minute and 20 seconds to put on pallet is quite ample for me on a good shift of 80 000 good acurate loads is all i need    let the others do what they want     i can also buy the 15000 machine but i dont want it to run that fast     cheers   george

Thanks George, useful as usual to have your input as i seem to always be the alien here for saying things i know for direct experience 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Continental Shooter

[motty]

5 hours ago, BrowningDJC said:

I would like to see everyone who shoots over farmland voluntarily stop using plastic. 

Yes fibre may be a few quid more, but it would show the shooting community care about the land they shoot over. 

Shooting plastic wads is no different to leaving empty cases in my opinion.

Tell you what, I'll stop littering the countryside with plastic when you stop littering it with lead. Fair enough?

3 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

Thanks George, useful as usual to have your input as i seem to always be the alien here for saying things i know for direct experience 

Yeah, like lead pellets killing without penetrating.......

[propercartridges]

On 09/02/2019 at 23:33, figgy said:

So when they're forced by laws or popular demand they can supply them.

Typical business of see what the market can stand and squeeze a bit more.

Hope when we're out of Europe we can get more from round the world like Asia. They already make lots of the non toxic shot and base metal. Have been known for powders for thousands of years so some decent low cost shells shouldn't be to much to ask for.

See what the likes of Gamebore etc all do then.

figgy get me some names of these component makers in aasia believe me i will sharp get in touch        but lead is linked to lme so thats not cheap   i pay 9500 euros on a 40 footer full of powder from france freight charges for 21 miles of water how much is that going to cost to shift from asia     tell me the name of the non toxit shot maker ill treat you to a ride out to see them    so lets see what we can drum up    cheers   george

[Continental Shooter]

3 hours ago, motty said:

Yeah, like lead pellets killing without penetrating.......

Indeed.  As it's been proved not just in the past couple of posts George intervened to confirm what you guys slayer me for -but as well from the PM I received form knowledgable member of the forum who unfortunately have been pushed off by your brigade - I don't write to increase the count of the posts or if I don't have something valuable and constructive to add to a conversation.... unlike someone else whose only word in the dictionary is 'rubbish' and the only sentence that has a purpose is 'I've been out in the field'. The fact I drive a car doesn't make me mechanic …. likewise my degree in physics doesn't make me a professor.

I respect you for the field knowledge and shooting abilities and liked your videos ... but that is about it I'm afraid.  True, I don't have your field expertise, nor your shooting skills but that is mostly because I employ my time trying to grow and better myself, my soul and my knowledge not only my bag and my ego; I speak 4 languages professionally, I'm studying for my 3rd degree and have a family I enjoy spending time with. So, yes my shooting time is limited as much as  your your technical knowledge  of ballistic is blatant; you seem one of these people that shout louder in a room to cover their lack of knowledge and understanding, but I am sure that behind that you're a nice person so, lets leave it at that.

It's obvious you don't know anything about ballistic (internal, external or terminal) so, whilst I don't want to black list you as I enjoy reading about your stories, I would appreciate if you would abstain from intervening on my posts with pointless argument which are not constructive in the slightest.  I do welcome a challenge but only when is constructive as this is what expands my mind and pushes my knowledge... but you and your keyboard warriors associates aren't really my cup of tea and I like to stick with others in this forum who are worth their salt when it comes to technical ballistic discussions.

After all this is a section dedicated to reloading  not to witch hunting anyone that speaks terms,  enunciate laws or expresses concepts  which might not make sense to the untrained mind.  People join in to get some knowledge and they have the right to learn things as they are not as they are made by someone who can't back it up with solid knowledge.  And that's not because i say so, but because ballisting is governed by so many physics law that 'i've been in the field' just doesn't cut it.

thanks for your understanding

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Continental Shooter

[hakapiken]

Continental Shooter 👍🏻👍🏻😀

J.A.

[motty]

52 minutes ago, Continental Shooter said:

Indeed.  As it's been proved not just in the past couple of posts George intervened to confirm what you guys slayer me for -but as well from the PM I received form knowledgable member of the forum who unfortunately have been pushed off by your brigade - I don't write to increase the count of the posts or if I don't have something valuable and constructive to add to a conversation.... unlike someone else whose only word in the dictionary is 'rubbish' and the only sentence that has a purpose is 'I've been out in the field'. The fact I drive a car doesn't make me mechanic …. likewise my degree in physics doesn't make me a professor.

I respect you for the field knowledge and shooting abilities and liked your videos ... but that is about it I'm afraid.  True, I don't have your field expertise, nor your shooting skills but that is mostly because I employ my time trying to grow and better myself, my soul and my knowledge not only my bag and my ego; I speak 4 languages professionally, I'm studying for my 3rd degree and have a family I enjoy spending time with. So, yes my shooting time is limited as much as  your your technical knowledge  of ballistic is blatant; you seem one of these people that shout louder in a room to cover their lack of knowledge and understanding, but I am sure that behind that you're a nice person so, lets leave it at that.

It's obvious you don't know anything about ballistic (internal, external or terminal) so, whilst I don't want to black list you as I enjoy reading about your stories, I would appreciate if you would abstain from intervening on my posts with pointless argument which are not constructive in the slightest.  I do welcome a challenge but only when is constructive as this is what expands my mind and pushes my knowledge... but you and your keyboard warriors associates aren't really my cup of tea and I like to stick with others in this forum who are worth their salt when it comes to technical ballistic discussions.

After all this is a section dedicated to reloading  not to witch hunting anyone that speaks terms,  enunciate laws or expresses concepts  which might not make sense to the untrained mind.  People join in to get some knowledge and they have the right to learn things as they are not as they are made by someone who can't back it up with solid knowledge.  And that's not because i say so, but because ballisting is governed by so many physics law that 'i've been in the field' just doesn't cut it.

thanks for your understanding

 

 

 

 

While you may know about many different things, you are still 100% wrong on the penetration thing. Striking breast meat is not how to bring about the demise of a bird. I do know that.

[Continental Shooter]

13 minutes ago, motty said:

While you may know about many different things, you are still 100% wrong on the penetration thing. Striking breast meat is not how to bring about the demise of a bird. I do know that.

Ok , no problems, let's agree to disagree here,👍 but let's also just spare a thought for those boxers who died from blunt force trauma or had life threatening injuries like brain hemorrhage, bursted livers, and others. Since kinetic energy is the result of speed and mass, I don't buy that even Tyson can fire a jab at 400m/s (considering the result is a lot less on a punch due to the gloves absorbing a lot of it). Rapport that to the size and vitals of a bird and you can imagine  what can be xaused. If you then would like me to gather some data on bullet injuries to armed forces (while wearimg armoured vests) or other info, i'll be please do do my best.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Continental Shooter

[motty]

13 minutes ago, Continental Shooter said:

Ok , no problems, let's agree to disagree here,👍 but let's also just spare a thought for those boxers who died from blunt force trauma or had life threatening injuries like brain hemorrhage, bursted livers, and others. Since kinetic energy is the result of speed and mass, I don't buy that even Tyson can fire a jab at 400m/s (considering the result is a lot less on a punch due to the gloves absorbing a lot of it). Rapport that to the size and vitals of a bird and you can imagine  what can be xaused. If you then would like me to gather some data on bullet injuries to armed forces (while wearimg armoured vests) or other info, i'll be please do do my best.

Boxers do not get hit with pellets! Birds fo not wear bullet proof vests! Your argument is flawed!

Pigeons, ducks, pheasants, geese etc etc die from pellets striking and destroying organs. They do not die from pellets that hit the breast, failing to penetrate further than skin.

[Continental Shooter]

14 minutes ago, motty said:

Boxers do not get hit with pellets! Birds fo not wear bullet proof vests! Your argument is flawed!

Pigeons, ducks, pheasants, geese etc etc die from pellets striking and destroying organs. They do not die from pellets that hit the breast, failing to penetrate further than skin.

Yeah, and birds don't get hit by punches, not theynhave the same muscular strength of boxers. as I said the energy transferred is determined by mass and speed, if you want the formulae I can give it to you

[Diss4111]

On 14/02/2019 at 08:53, Continental Shooter said:

seen you're learning from me to skip posts you don't like.... That would be a first, I've not learnt anything from you yet, except you are an insufferable know it all

do you actually have proof or is just gut instinct (which doesn't belong to scientific disciplines like ballistic)? Yes I do have actual proof of this

this might be your feelings as findings need to be backed by proof.  This is definitely not the industry's findings (backed by hundreds of daily tests) and as far a s i know they pay scientist to develop load and components whilst, judging from other posts.... you only base your assumption (another thing that doesn't belong to scientific disciplines) or gut feelings. Your words, not mine!!

As i mentioned before, the piston is used to create a boiling room (bigger or smaller depending on the wad type, compound or design) and ensure powder burn efficiently and pressure is adjusted. And of course the fibre wad or over powder card does non of this?

I have a whole essay on wads which i presented for my exam and had been written with the help of some of the leading manufacturers and 100s of test produced as evidence of my essay. I can pass it to you for a bit of reading ... No thanks, I know what works and I have read enough of your 'Findings'

 

 

11 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

Yeah, and birds don't get hit by punches, not theynhave the same muscular strength of boxers. as I said the energy transferred is determined by mass and speed, if you want the formulae I can give it to you

Why don't you give up, your arguments have more holes than a collander and are based on some theoretical nonsense rather that the real world

[propercartridges]

before i put a cartridge on the market at the moment i am working on     a cart called   pure fibre     meaning just that no  plastic 6mm discs    and took them to a well know estate last weekend near hampshire   i used  a 2 and 34     chamber  18 .4 on the bore   and three quarter choke and i was very proud on using them on high flighting pigeons    these after 6 months of ballistics in factory and shooting this game season are ready to go     i will admit i hate fibre    but its the way things are going    but carts have to be field tested     but after 9 years of giving carts out you will be suprised how many people dont even thank you or report back    i might as well stand on a corner and give  five pound notes away    so i am away now to do 3 estates in scotland and maybe get a bit o pigeon shooting    cheers  george

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Looking forward to them becoming generally available, then can you move on to a 7.5, a 7 and a 6.5 28 gramme load please George.

[udderlyoffroad]

14 hours ago, propercartridges said:

i pay 9500 euros on a 40 footer full of powder from france freight charges for 21 miles of water how much is that going to cost to shift from asia  

It's not for me to tell you how to run your business, but you might want to have a word with a good shipping agent; you might find containers from Asia to be comparable to that 21 miles of English channel....i.e. the Channel trip is way overpriced due to a lack of competition, compared to the hotly-contested routes from Asia to Europe.  At the very least, the lower cost of the product might offset the cost of shipping same.

That said, by all accounts, you're knocking out quality cartridges at a price that undercuts the competition, so maybe I should keep quiet

Get down Bristol much?

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, propercartridges said:

before i put a cartridge on the market at the moment i am working on     a cart called   pure fibre     meaning just that no  plastic 6mm discs    and took them to a well know estate last weekend near hampshire   i used  a 2 and 34     chamber  18 .4 on the bore   and three quarter choke and i was very proud on using them on high flighting pigeons    these after 6 months of ballistics in factory and shooting this game season are ready to go     i will admit i hate fibre    but its the way things are going    but carts have to be field tested     but after 9 years of giving carts out you will be suprised how many people dont even thank you or report back    i might as well stand on a corner and give  five pound notes away    so i am away now to do 3 estates in scotland and maybe get a bit o pigeon shooting    cheers  george

I'd be inclined to try them in a 3" chambered Maxus before this lot hit the market place. Maxus purely because that's just about as big as a back-bore gets. 3" because that's the way things are headed. The 2000 that I bought failed that test miserably. Two guys who don't have similar barrels cleaned up nicely at my expense.

[Diss4111]

2 hours ago, propercartridges said:

before i put a cartridge on the market at the moment i am working on     a cart called   pure fibre     meaning just that no  plastic 6mm discs    and took them to a well know estate last weekend near hampshire   i used  a 2 and 34     chamber  18 .4 on the bore   and three quarter choke and i was very proud on using them on high flighting pigeons    these after 6 months of ballistics in factory and shooting this game season are ready to go     i will admit i hate fibre    but its the way things are going    but carts have to be field tested     but after 9 years of giving carts out you will be suprised how many people dont even thank you or report back    i might as well stand on a corner and give  five pound notes away    so i am away now to do 3 estates in scotland and maybe get a bit o pigeon shooting    cheers  george

Why do you hate fibre? 

[Diss4111]

On 12/02/2019 at 20:11, Continental Shooter said:

 

For the first point: true, it doesn't fully fall in but it fits in to allow the piston to push it through with minimal and more precise effort.  I am sure George (Propercartridges) could be more precise in confirming this.  I would also advise to watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzK3a6JR7z4 pass through to 7:15 and watch till 7:21.  you cna see how easy is to pus a plastic wad in and why is used so widley by manufacturer.  Fiber wad cannot achieve that.

Second Point: i assume you have actual proof that this is the case? all my tests prove, given very few exceptions, the exact opposite of what you're saying but i am open to see something to the contrary.  This is of course using the same recipe and components including closure height.

As for the recoli; this is regulated by Newton's 3rd law and is got definitely nothing to do with wads; if you don't believe me .... trust the man himself.

Sorry,

Maybe its this post you are accusing me of ignoring? Not the case, just didn't see it

true, actual recoil is governed by Newtons laws. However perceived recoil is something else. That is why a 32 gram steel load doing 1400 FPS seems to recoil harder than a 32 gram lead load doing the same speed. Why is this??????? It's because of the wad design and the compression section that the steel wad doesn't have.

So nothing to do with the wad itself? I think it has a lot to do with the wad. In the same way B & P cases with the Gordon System have less recoil.

[Smokersmith]

You’re right the wad is important.

Why do you think home use chronys don’t work with fibre wads ? It’s due to the increased muzzle blast as more gasses blow past the fibre wad. That’s why in all the literature when you compare like for like, it shows more powder is required in these loads, than plastic which expands and captures the force better.

You can see this in reloading manuals, the FES Kent load data, Claygame data for 12, 10, and 8 bore loads, and there’s a section in Douglas McDougals book on 8 bore reloading which explores the phenomena also.

Therefore your experience is against the grain, and that’s why you’ve been asked for some data that demonstrates what you’re seeing.

[Diss4111]

5 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

You’re right the wad is important.

Why do you think home use chronys don’t work with fibre wads ? It’s due to the increased muzzle blast as more gasses blow past the fibre wad. That’s why in all the literature when you compare like for like, it shows more powder is required in these loads, than plastic which expands and captures the force better.

You can see this in reloading manuals, the FES Kent load data, Claygame data for 12, 10, and 8 bore loads, and there’s a section in Douglas McDougals book on 8 bore reloading which explores the phenomena also.

Therefore your experience is against the grain, and that’s why you’ve been asked for some data that demonstrates what you’re seeing.

The fibre wad deforms at the point of firing and seals too, It is incredibly hard to push a fibre wad through a barrel where as it is easy to push a plastic wad through the seal you speak about is minimal difference with either.

The muzzle blast affects either test which is why it is done at 2.5m from the muzzle

[Continental Shooter]

44 minutes ago, Diss4111 said:

The fibre wad deforms at the point of firing and seals too, It is incredibly hard to push a fibre wad through a barrel where as it is easy to push a plastic wad through the seal you speak about is minimal

Then the manufacturer have got it wrong for the past 50 years....