Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
B725

Trialing dog's that also work

Recommended Posts

How many trialing dog's can or do a full day's work. I do know someone with a FTCH who does work his, I had a conversation a while ago with a bloke who was training a pup for trialing and he said that it would only ever run in trials and never go on a shoot, it just seemed a bit strange for it not to go out shooting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, B725 said:

 it just seemed a bit strange for it not to go out shooting. 

Ahh but remember it's not about having a shooting dog but more of a ftch to breed and make money from..........cynical but true......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They do take them out shooting but its all planed and controlled shooting to bring the dog on for trialing, field trials are designed to resemble a day’s shooting as closely as possible, so a day out shooting/training has to-be as close to the real thing as possible, but as I say its all very controlled shooting, can you imagine trying to train and correct a potential field trials dog on the average shoot with some dogs out of control, whistles going off all around you and dog owners shouting come here you little f*%*er?

The other thing of course is as millrace said FTCH can fetch an higher price, be it pups or dogs at stud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, millrace said:

Ahh but remember it's not about having a shooting dog but more of a ftch to breed and make money from..........cynical but true......

Rubbish! The trialling pups I have seen for sale recently from several people have been cheaper than what people are asking for Sprocker pups on recent adverts! 

FTCH x OFTW pups cheaper than crosses that breeders don't have to pay to register. Triallers I have seen who breed will normally do so to keep several pups back for themselves and the rest will go to working homes. 


Unfortunately there are a few bad eggs churning up as many pups as possible to make a fast few quid, this happens in all breeds sadly. 

 

There are many triallers who work their dogs, however they will be selective of the type of work that they give them. I believe two of the handlers who placed top 3 in the cocker championships work their dogs weekly on pheasant shoots picking up. 

Edited by Lloyd90

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, old'un said:

They do take them out shooting but its all planed and controlled shooting to bring the dog on for trialing, field trials are designed to resemble a day’s shooting as closely as possible, so a day out shooting/training has to-be as close to the real thing as possible, but as I say its all very controlled shooting, can you imagine trying to train and correct a potential field trials dog on the average shoot with some dogs out of control, whistles going off all around you and dog owners shouting come here you little f*%*er?

The other thing of course is as millrace said FTCH can fetch an higher price, be it pups or dogs at stud.

 

This is bang on re shoots, have you seen a lot of dogs on shoots?  Lots of newcomers often talk about being worried to take their dog on shoots for the first time, but in reality the standard is not high. I think many people do very little training before getting the dog in the field on game. 

These days lots of dogs on shoots don't have to work to a high standard. The amount of birds on the ground at driven shoots doesn't require a good hunting dog, with many birds flushing just because beaters are walking toward them. Birds are often dropped landing in the open, and then at the end, picking up will often involve a large number of dogs sweeping an area finding any downed birds. 

It doesn't matter if your beating dog (or several normally) are too far ahead of the handler, as long as the birds are flushed in the right direction towards the guns. 

The aim of the shoot day is to get birds in the bag, not to showcase a highly polished working dog. 

 

 

Now a good trialling dog, is a great rough shooting dog! If the dog pulls too far ahead that can be the difference between going home with a bird or empty handed. If the dog can't mark a retrieve and pick it, you don't then get your mates and their 6 dogs over to have a look as well. 

A lot of the high end triallers will be able to take their dogs for a days work, but normally they won't just let anyone shoot over them. 

 

However they do consider that if your constantly taking the dogs out on long long hunting days, the dog will learn and adjust its pace to be a bit slower, which can cause issues for trials as the dog has to be quick and make it look good. Lots of handlers however will take several dogs for this reason though, so you will see a few very well behaved dogs off lead but following nicely on heel, which each dog has their turn to hunt up. 

Dave Lissett shows this nicely on his DVD, think he has 3 or 4 dogs on heel and rotates them in and out shooting birds over 1 dog whilst the others stay on heel as told. Amazing training that! 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, old'un said:

They do take them out shooting but its all planed and controlled shooting to bring the dog on for trialing, field trials are designed to resemble a day’s shooting as closely as possible, so a day out shooting/training has to-be as close to the real thing as possible, but as I say its all very controlled shooting, can you imagine trying to train and correct a potential field trials dog on the average shoot with some dogs out of control, whistles going off all around you and dog owners shouting come here you little f*%*er?

The other thing of course is as millrace said FTCH can fetch an higher price, be it pups or dogs at stud.

The average shoot dog is trained to a very poor standard from what I've been involved in and does a good dog no favours at all.

The lad which had the dog that Jake is from was on a few shoots and his dogs were an exception and all he did was pick up.

Had an invited woodcock day from a couple of shooting friends with Mac and took Rab at the time.Between 6 of us there were i think 9 dogs and it was a joy,every single one to a very good standard,no shouting and endless whistling.

What a difference it made to the day.

Edited by sako751sg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, millrace said:

Ahh but remember it's not about having a shooting dog but more of a ftch to breed and make money from..........cynical but true......

This is not Rubbish, many moons ago was on a shoot where at the time one of the  top dogs in the country was picking up, would not have given it kennel room had to be directed within 2yrds of drop to find game.

I have also owned a field trial grade dog and until it was encouraged to use its own head a little was of little worth but looked good doing demos

 

A stud DOG can make in the region of 40,000 pounds tell me money does not factor in when a lot more dogs are run in trials than bitches who have a maximum amount of litters.

But this is not always the case there are some very talented dogs and handlers out there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm fortunate to come from an area with a few well known trialiers who do quite well in both labs and spaniels.

Most of the local keepers have very little to do with them and very few would ever let them on their ground again. apart from the odd 1 or 2 (often older ex keeper types who have been FTing fsuccesfully for decades) who brings out a bunch of old pot lickers rather than any competition dogs.

 

Modern trailling is not really anything like a days shooting nowadays (althou HPR's are the eception to that rule) even a days rough shooting is nt that similar any more

I've seen quite a few decent trailing dogs over the years but not many i'd really want in my kennel,

For me FT and working dogs are almost 2 seperate types of dogs (esp with FT breeding looks, colour an speed/flashiness and size over real proper attributes like nose and natural ability)

And to be honest most triallers wouldn't want to come and work a dog on a shoot anyway as it really does little for them

 

Lloyd ur dog won't last long on a commercial shoot with any number of birds if its pulling away from u.

 

On 2 different shoots i pick up with some FT folk, and to be honest i don't mind doing the extra work if i get to watch a bit of good dog work too, but most competeing FT dogs will be carried on a shoot day by the pot lickers. And most FT folk know that which is why they keep some pot lickers around for the retrieves/sweeping u'd never let a comp dog do

 

Just to add it really depends on the handler, some handlers are there just to train there dogs while others are there to do wot the keeper wants, in most cases the dogs will do the work its the hndlers that won't allow them too

Edited by scotslad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, scotslad said:

I'm fortunate to come from an area with a few well known trialiers who do quite well in both labs and spaniels.

Most of the local keepers have very little to do with them and very few would ever let them on their ground again. apart from the odd 1 or 2 (often older ex keeper types who have been FTing fsuccesfully for decades) who brings out a bunch of old pot lickers rather than any competition dogs.

 

Modern trailling is not really anything like a days shooting nowadays (althou HPR's are the eception to that rule) even a days rough shooting is nt that similar any more

I've seen quite a few decent trailing dogs over the years but not many i'd really want in my kennel,

For me FT and working dogs are almost 2 seperate types of dogs (esp with FT breeding looks, colour an speed/flashiness and size over real proper attributes like nose and natural ability)

And to be honest most triallers wouldn't want to come and work a dog on a shoot anyway as it really does little for them

 

Lloyd ur dog won't last long on a commercial shoot with any number of birds if its pulling away from u.

 

On 2 different shoots i pick up with some FT folk, and to be honest i don't mind doing the extra work if i get to watch a bit of good dog work too, but most competeing FT dogs will be carried on a shoot day by the pot lickers. And most FT folk know that which is why they keep some pot lickers around for the retrieves/sweeping u'd never let a comp dog do

 

Some of my mates went on a semi large shoot beating a few years back. 

They said it was absolutely pointless even having a dog, they were walking through the drives kicking the birds along and there were hundreds of birds all over the place. 

I just don’t think commercial shoots are a good example of dog work, or even shooting.

Many people seem to think that big commercial shooting is going to be the nail in the coffin for shooting sports. 

 

For me all the fun is taking out a dog youve worked on yourself, put in the hours, then you take it out and manage to bag some birds and get the retrieve back :) great memories to hold onto :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It all depends on the shoot, some big shoots won't even have dogs in th eline others will, but none will want them raking forward (apart from grouse moors0

1 big shoot i go to often hs 20+ dogs in the line and needs them as some quite thick woods in places or nice open bracken/brair hills and faces all needing blanked in, but u have to know when to call ur dogs back in as can be thousands of birds in flushing points, not a good time to have a dog pull in on scent

 

Have u ever watched a FT?

Some of the shooting on display at many FT's isn't very sporting either.

Not having a go but if u shot a bird at that range on most walked up shoots u'd be sent home, but i do understand why its done (get enough retrieves for dogs and make sure no runners for the dogs)

 

Ur last sentance is wot most folk do it for, but to be honest i don't think any of the boys i know who FT would agree with it anymore, it becomes more about the competition etc than just enjoying the day. I've spoke to hem after FT's and dog ran well but no luck /game on its runs and they're all upset despite it not beinghis or his dogs fault, he had a couple of novice wins this year with both his dogs thou so there there or there abouts and he's been getting awards for a while too

 

To use a different example both my dad and bro play golf and are mad keen on it, my dads absolutley rubbish at it, my bro's off 1-3 handicap so pretty good, my dad gets far more enjoyment out of it than my bro as it becomes more about the comp and with a low handicap if u have a bad shot on the 1st u might as well save urself 4 hrs and pack up then and there and go home.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lloyd's last paragraph sums up why I have a dog and trained to the best of my ability, I wonder how many trialing dog's that do 30 minutes flat out could do a full day, it does make me smile watching some of the other dog's running amok with folk shouting and yorping at their dog's. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never had a field trial dog and will never be able to train a dog to that standard but I have beat on shoots that had lads with trailing dogs that had been gifted to them by f/t trainers I can tell you now they went hell for leather all day  .

Nothing better than  a walk up day working a flying machine no time to be bored and the excitement and pleasure you get out of it well you can't put a price on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, scotslad said:

 

It all depends on the shoot, some big shoots won't even have dogs in th eline others will, but none will want them raking forward (apart from grouse moors0

1 big shoot i go to often hs 20+ dogs in the line and needs them as some quite thick woods in places or nice open bracken/brair hills and faces all needing blanked in, but u have to know when to call ur dogs back in as can be thousands of birds in flushing points, not a good time to have a dog pull in on scent

 

Have u ever watched a FT?

Some of the shooting on display at many FT's isn't very sporting either.

Not having a go but if u shot a bird at that range on most walked up shoots u'd be sent home, but i do understand why its done (get enough retrieves for dogs and make sure no runners for the dogs)

 

Ur last sentance is wot most folk do it for, but to be honest i don't think any of the boys i know who FT would agree with it anymore, it becomes more about the competition etc than just enjoying the day. I've spoke to hem after FT's and dog ran well but no luck /game on its runs and they're all upset despite it not beinghis or his dogs fault, he had a couple of novice wins this year with both his dogs thou so there there or there abouts and he's been getting awards for a while too

 

To use a different example both my dad and bro play golf and are mad keen on it, my dads absolutley rubbish at it, my bro's off 1-3 handicap so pretty good, my dad gets far more enjoyment out of it than my bro as it becomes more about the comp and with a low handicap if u have a bad shot on the 1st u might as well save urself 4 hrs and pack up then and there and go home.

 

 

 

Bang on mate :) 

some triallers it’s all about the competition, one lad who trialed the father of my pup had a championship winning dog, he was moving and doing up his home and sold the dog to the US for big big money. 

Other people would never let that dog go and would keep him as their pride and joy for the rest of their lives. 

 

As in any sport the people within it are all different. 

 

Then we get on to different types of dog in different parts of the country 😂. tending to see a lot of the racier skinny spaniels in areas where there’s no heavy cover, reeds and tall grass, up north rabbit shooting land etc. 

 

My mate in Wales said when they come down from those places their dogs have never faced hard cover so look useless. 

The dogs I’ve seen down this way are solid good stamp sized dogs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/02/2019 at 16:18, Lloyd90 said:

Rubbish! The trialling pups I have seen for sale recently from several people have been cheaper than what people are asking for Sprocker pups on recent adverts! 

FTCH x OFTW pups cheaper than crosses that breeders don't have to pay to register. Triallers I have seen who breed will normally do so to keep several pups back for themselves and the rest will go to working homes. 


Unfortunately there are a few bad eggs churning up as many pups as possible to make a fast few quid, this happens in all breeds sadly. 

 

There are many triallers who work their dogs, however they will be selective of the type of work that they give them. I believe two of the handlers who placed top 3 in the cocker championships work their dogs weekly on pheasant shoots picking up. 

👍👍👍

 

Hubby works and trials his dogs - Stan’s Dad in fact and had his mother not had such a bad start in life she would be too 😂😂😍

 

A fit dog is a fit dog. I’ve seen many many many dogs who as pups went like absolute stink but having been used purely for a shooting dog very sensibly learn to pace themselves throughout the day.

A good dog is a good dog whether it’s a trialling dog or just a good honest shooting dog. I love ‘em all!!

Edited by bigbird

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

😂   

 My mate in Wales said when they come down from those places their dogs have never faced hard cover so look useless. 

Rubbish, we've got plenty of hard cover up here in the north. Often people come up beat once and never return. Those on here who have joined me for a day will testify just how rough it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, toontastic said:

Rubbish, we've got plenty of hard cover up here in the north. Often people come up beat once and never return. Those on here who have joined me for a day will testify just how rough it is.

Just saying what one of the lads said mate. 

I do know rabbit trials seem to be more common up that way due to rabbit numbers etc, do you have a lot of rabbit near you? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Lloyd90 said:

Just saying what one of the lads said mate. 

I do know rabbit trials seem to be more common up that way due to rabbit numbers etc, do you have a lot of rabbit near you? 

I beat four different places and in the last few years I've seen just a hand full. Only saw one this year on an estate that used to have loads. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, toontastic said:

Rubbish, we've got plenty of hard cover up here in the north. Often people come up beat once and never return. Those on here who have joined me for a day will testify just how rough it is.

I have worked my dogs around the North and Scottish borders and have used vasaline on the dogs eyebrows to help stop some of the injuries they pick up while pushing birds out of brambles gorse bushes and blackthorn hedges so I agree we have plenty of heavy cover up here and if game is hiding in it my spaniels ignore pain and get in after it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, toontastic said:

Rubbish, we've got plenty of hard cover up here in the north. Often people come up beat once and never return. Those on here who have joined me for a day will testify just how rough it is.

True that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know 1 famous spaniel trialler that reckons spaniel FTing has had its day as not enough rabbits left to train dogs on properly.

Used to be a lot of rabbit FT's + training days locally, now none, just no rabbits region wide and any serious spaniel trainer trvelling -4hrs to get on them.

 

Also with the way modern breeding is going if u get a dog that makes it to FTCH there will be  a que of bitches lining up for it no matter if it is entirley healthly or even a good temperemnt.

I know of a recent winner who speaking to thoose in the know is an absolutle headcase and took that 1 trainer (as others had failed with the dog) not a good dog to be leaving its genetic ark on the breed

 

I've shoot some training days with some FT folk and some days i feeel sorry for the keepers absolutley no idea about game, or sometimes shooting safety, walking in front of guns just at likely places then wondering why u never shot at the flushed bird

For me FTing has moved too far away from its roots and too many involved now hav little shooting experience/understanding, a few top FT names have said the same in interviews over the past few years too

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing how many beaters/pickers up don't shoot cos the don't like it. Just like to work the dogs I think they are missing out but that's just me. I think they miss out on the working bond you get when you lift the gun to the flush and the dog gets the retrieve  . At times when I work the dogs for others I am sure the dogs start to look to the guns bit like when you keep missing the flushed game you get that backward glance from the dog😣

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The medium sized commercial shoot i beat on has two regular pickers up who travel two hours to get to the place and they do alot trialing and all of their dogs are excellent but both have said they would never take any of their dogs beatin

Neither of them shoot they do the picking up as training for the field trials

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They would be lead astray by the wild dogs in the beating line (INCLUDING MY SPANIELS !) 

I also believe a full days beating would nt help the dogs as far as trialing goes as a trial will involve a short spell (one drive) out working and then long spells sat in a dog box waiting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forgive my ignorance but a well trained dog should just be that, surely if they are trained to stop on contact flush etc then they should ignore any loopy dog's as that is what I expect from my dog. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...