Knife crime.

[islandgun]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42791439

This taken from henryd's link makes interesting reading. basically offer help to all those that want it, and coming down hard that dont.. you cant argue with the given statistics.

[Mice!]

45 minutes ago, henry d said:

Yeah, but it was done by education and mentoring young people and some of the PW massive don`t agree with that cos it won`t work trying to hug a hoodie will it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45572691

Sounds great, they know it works already.

Makes you wonder why its not already in place, they should be in schools and colleges rolling it out.

But what about those outside the system? I think those still in education should have the seriousness of this issue forced upon them, the chalk outline outside every school and college with a simple statement, carrying knives kills people you know.

For the others I've said it before have the police set up random stop and search points in town centres at all times of day.

There was talk on telly last week of bringing in the army, imagine a squad of soldiers working with the police turning up in random places?

[henry d]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Sounds great, they know it works already.

Makes you wonder why its not already in place, they should be in schools and colleges rolling it out.

But what about those outside the system? ......

It isn`t in place as the government have cut youth services to the bone and they would rather be fighting fires as they happen, which is why we are where we are.

They were in the system at one stage and would come in under targeted youth work as they have "disengaged" with education etc.

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42791439

This taken from henryd's link makes interesting reading. basically offer help to all those that want it, and coming down hard that dont.. you cant argue with the given statistics.

There will be plenty along shortly to argue

[Mice!]

How can you argue? Something needs to be done, and now.

I wouldn't have expected the area i live to suffer from things like this but last week we made the news, an organised fight where people drove from Manchester to Runshaw college, knives and a crow bar were brandished, someone was cut not stabbed?? The police possibly knew it was supposed to be happening but I'm not sure if that's true?

It needs stopping now, and education is the first step. 

[henry d]

I`m trying my best mate, I have one young person ATM who is at risk of offending (knives) but he is only just appearing on the statutory sector`s radar.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42791439

This taken from henryd's link makes interesting reading. basically offer help to all those that want it, and coming down hard that dont.. you cant argue with the given statistics.

It did work in Glasgow, but which part of it was most effective ? The mentoring approach of the VRU , or the courts doubling sentences for violence, especially with knives ?
 

12 minutes ago, henry d said:

There will be plenty along shortly to argue

Would it work in London ?

I really dont think it would, like I said in the other thread, its a cultural problem, You could double the amount of police, you could double the amount of youth service money, it wouldnt be enough.
Because a lot of it stems from inter racial friction.
This link shows the victims of 2018, mostly knife crime.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46128268

The shocking thing is this, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/05/how-does-londons-spate-of-killings-compare-with-other-cities
Murder in London had been dropping year on year until 2015, what changed ? Now its climbing back to the same sort of figures of 10 years ago.

A lot of the issues when it comes to tackling crime in London stem from the way Government and the mostly labour controlled councils in the worst affected areas, pussy foot around the racial and cultural issues.
Are police officers scared to stop and search minorities because they are worried they may be labelled racists?
Is it not PC to say that many of the perpetrators of street crime, and most of the people caught for these stabbings, fatal or otherwise, are 'BAME'

Are we literally scared of saying things as they appear to be, lest we offend someone ?

Look at the outrage when, moped crime was tackled more robustly.
'In May 2017 the London Evening Standard revealed that at least 50,000 crimes had been committed by gangs using stolen scooters, mopeds, motorcycles and bikes. The Metropolitan Police stated that the vehicles were often hijacked in Outer London boroughs such as Barking and Dagenham and used to commit robberies in the West End of London. Statistics released by the Metropolitan Police revealed that 1,500 scooters or motorcycles are being stolen in London every month. In the previous twelve months 13,005 thefts were reported, a 41 per cent increase over the previous period.^[7]'

People like Ms Abbott said it was 'illegal' and needed to stop before someone was 'seriously injured'
But all those victims ......?

Where is her voice now that moped crime has significantly decreased ?
https://www.london.gov.uk/city-hall-blog/moped-related-crime-down

I could go on , but Ive said it so many times on different threads, yes you can 'hug a hoody' you can 'save' some of them, yes it does work, some of the time.
But the softly softly approach ? Does it work just on its own ?
If there is no threat of retribution, then there is no threat, no real reason to stop.

By all means have a system of rehabilitation , but dont blunt the edge of punishment with it.
The lack of threat of serious hard sentencing, is far more responsible for the rise in crime , than lack of money , or the youth club closing down.

 

 

[12gauge82]

11 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It did work in Glasgow, but which part of it was most effective ? The mentoring approach of the VRU , or the courts doubling sentences for violence, especially with knives ?
 

Would it work in London ?

I really dont think it would, like I said in the other thread, its a cultural problem, You could double the amount of police, you could double the amount of youth service money, it wouldnt be enough.
Because a lot of it stems from inter racial friction.
This link shows the victims of 2018, mostly knife crime.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46128268

The shocking thing is this, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/05/how-does-londons-spate-of-killings-compare-with-other-cities
Murder in London had been dropping year on year until 2015, what changed ? Now its climbing back to the same sort of figures of 10 years ago.

A lot of the issues when it comes to tackling crime in London stem from the way Government and the mostly labour controlled councils in the worst affected areas, pussy foot around the racial and cultural issues.
Are police officers scared to stop and search minorities because they are worried they may be labelled racists?
Is it not PC to say that many of the perpetrators of street crime, and most of the people caught for these stabbings, fatal or otherwise, are 'BAME'

Are we literally scared of saying things as they appear to be, lest we offend someone ?

Look at the outrage when, moped crime was tackled more robustly.
'In May 2017 the London Evening Standard revealed that at least 50,000 crimes had been committed by gangs using stolen scooters, mopeds, motorcycles and bikes. The Metropolitan Police stated that the vehicles were often hijacked in Outer London boroughs such as Barking and Dagenham and used to commit robberies in the West End of London. Statistics released by the Metropolitan Police revealed that 1,500 scooters or motorcycles are being stolen in London every month. In the previous twelve months 13,005 thefts were reported, a 41 per cent increase over the previous period.^[7]'

People like Ms Abbott said it was 'illegal' and needed to stop before someone was 'seriously injured'
But all those victims ......?

Where is her voice now that moped crime has significantly decreased ?
https://www.london.gov.uk/city-hall-blog/moped-related-crime-down

I could go on , but Ive said it so many times on different threads, yes you can 'hug a hoody' you can 'save' some of them, yes it does work, some of the time.
But the softly softly approach ? Does it work just on its own ?
If there is no threat of retribution, then there is no threat, no real reason to stop.

By all means have a system of rehabilitation , but dont blunt the edge of punishment with it.
The lack of threat of serious hard sentencing, is far more responsible for the rise in crime , than lack of money , or the youth club closing down.

 

 

Good Post, that's twice today you've beat me to the punch 👊😂 

The left don't want to admit it but the most effective part of the strategy there was coming down hard on offenders and using stop and search, the police in London are trying to tackle knife crime in London with one arm tied behind their backs by care bears who won't admit or can't see what's really needed to tackle the issue and save lives. 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Good Post, that's twice today you've beat me to the punch 👊😂 

 

[Gordon R]

It needs the whole package.

Educate youngsters about knife crime and its effects on families, friends etc.

Stop and search, without fear of labels like racist.

Tough sentences. I don't care if prisons are overcrowded. If you don't like the time, don't do the crime.

Corporal punishment will probably never be introduced, but it would solve the overcrowding problem in prison. How many yobs would proudly wear their badge of honour and go back for more? I suspect it would have more deterrent than the present system of a stiff warning on cardboard.

[Mice!]

26 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

By all means have a system of rehabilitation , but dont blunt the edge of punishment with it.
The lack of threat of serious hard sentencing, is far more responsible for the rise in crime , than lack of money , or the youth club closing down.

your not entirely wrong, the punishment needs to make these people stop and think, whether its a knife crime or moped robbery, but the idea that youth clubs closing doesn't have an impact is wrong, I've always played rugby, done judo, Thai boxing and yes went to youth clubs.

Can you see a pattern, controlled physical activity where there is contest and contact, I now coach Judo and will start coaching Rugby soon enough.

I'll bet all these people from whatever background do nothing after school or college, just wander the streets of an evening or all weekend.

How many sports stars say if i hadn't boxed, played football etc then i would have been a wrong un!

[henry d]

Unfortunately those wanting the hard approach are not in youth or community work and so have little or no training so their replies are usually peppered with "I think/some/most..." which isn`t the best answer. There is also a tendency towards thinking one or another intervention will work alone, it doesn`t all that does is apply a band aid to a problem. No-one has said that there should be a lack of punishment, but it has been shown (and I have done it on here, Havilah) that for some a lesser sentence along with mandatory attending a known and working project can work wonders.

And no it won`t work for everyone.

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, henry d said:

Unfortunately those wanting the hard approach are not in youth or community work and so have little or no training so their replies are usually peppered with "I think/some/most..." which isn`t the best answer.

Aah.. we are not youth or community workers, so our opinion is worthless/invalid ?

Why dont we just gather an army of these wise (and trained) individuals, and just march on each city in turn, eradicating violent crime, in fact why not all crime, before moving on to the next ?
Literally no one has said that locking people up at the first misdemeanor is the answer, no one has said that rehabilitation doesnt work, schemes like the one in Glasgow have reduced crime, especially youth crime.
But Glasgow is still one of the most violent cities in Europe.

But if you think that it will work everywhere, thats fine.
But a tried and tested solution that does work everywhere, without fail.  is more harsher sentencing, deterrence.
Thats not what I think, thats what I know, and I didnt need training for that.

[TriBsa]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Unfortunately those wanting the hard approach are not in youth or community work and so have little or no training so their replies are usually peppered with "I think/some/most..." which isn`t the best answer. There is also a tendency towards thinking one or another intervention will work alone, it doesn`t all that does is apply a band aid to a problem. No-one has said that there should be a lack of punishment, but it has been shown (and I have done it on here, Havilah) that for some a lesser sentence along with mandatory attending a known and working project can work wonders.

And no it won`t work for everyone.

If your local project works then great.

But, with my cynical hat on here, aren't youth and community workers part of the problem that let thousands of vulnerable girls be groomed and abused by asian gangs? Failing in their most basic duties because their beliefs and dogmas would not let them face up to inconvenient truths? How can we be assured of their competency when it comes to knife crimes?

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by TriBsa

[henry d]

4 hours ago, TriBsa said:

If your local project works then great.

But, with my cynical hat on here, aren't youth and community workers part of the problem that let thousands of vulnerable girls be groomed and abused by asian gangs? Failing in their most basic duties because their beliefs and dogmas would not let them face up to inconvenient truths? How can we be assured of their competency when it comes to knife crimes?

 

I don`t know, what proof do you have? However using the same logic as you then; the police were the first to attend the young girl trashing a take away and took nearly a year to compile a report for the CPS who then said she was not credible, can we then say that all police and lawyers are incompetent? Or was it a straw man you were building?

Just as a side issue, youth work and community work are totally different, and particularly when you consider statutory and third sector youth or community work.

[12gauge82]

I'm with tribsa, I've seen countless failed attempts of rehabilitation and it virtually never works, not by the time the relevant services get involved anyway. 

Just to add I don't blame the people trying, they're almost always nice people, they are just often naive and can't see that a broken person can't always be fixed. 

[henry d]

Doing something after the fact is always going to be harder, that is why I was talking about intervention work. People will slip the net for sure but that is where rehab will help, it's not either/or it's both

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Doing something after the fact is always going to be harder, that is why I was talking about intervention work. People will slip the net for sure but that is where rehab will help, it's not either/or it's both

Agreed

[Yellow Bear]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Doing something after the fact is always going to be harder, that is why I was talking about intervention work. People will slip the net for sure but that is where rehab will help, it's not either/or it's both

 

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Agreed

In general I tend to agree, however, where is the money for this very expensive "trial" coming from.  We are already highly taxed so what is going to give, and if the answer is tax the rich please specify who constitutes rich as large companies will just move abroad.

[WestonSalop]

I am not a racist - I do not care what colour, race, creed or nationality, as long as people respect the law and customs of the UK. However, there is no doubt in my mind that until we face up to the fact that many of the issues facing us today point back to specific groups who are allowed to do what they want, at least in part because they know that the powers that be won't do anything for fear of accusations of racism, we will only scratch the surface. Something has to give.

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, WestonSalop said:

I am not a racist - I do not care what colour, race, creed or nationality, as long as people respect the law and customs of the UK. However, there is no doubt in my mind that until we face up to the fact that many of the issues facing us today point back to specific groups who are allowed to do what they want, at least in part because they know that the powers that be won't do anything for fear of accusations of racism, we will only scratch the surface. Something has to give.

We will keep treading softly around it until something does indeed 'give'
Something bad enough to trigger executive measures, be it 'terrorism' or a violent crime rate that simply cannot be controlled using the conventional means we are using now.

A virtual police state, curfews and removal of basic rights, that will give authority the edge, and legal means to quell crime, and dissent .

You will know whens its coming, as they will start building the new prisons en mass.
I would have said you will know its coming when its not safe to walk the streets at night. but for many people in certain areas, its been like that for a long time.

[Mice!]

26 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

 

In general I tend to agree, however, where is the money for this very expensive "trial" coming from.  We are already highly taxed so what is going to give, and if the answer is tax the rich please specify who constitutes rich as large companies will just move abroad.

17 minutes ago, WestonSalop said:

 

I know what you mean but when they can find money for the likes of HS2, which is simply not needed then there is money available.

18 minutes ago, WestonSalop said:

I am not a racist - I do not care what colour, race, creed or nationality, as long as people respect the law and customs of the UK. However, there is no doubt in my mind that until we face up to the fact that many of the issues facing us today point back to specific groups who are allowed to do what they want, at least in part because they know that the powers that be won't do anything for fear of accusations of racism, we will only scratch the surface. Something has to give.

Your right we're all people and should be treated the same.

[panoma1]

If the government tell you there is no money they are lying...........they have plenty of money, they just choose to spend it on something else!

[old man]

Another personally addressed envelope from HS2 yesterday, printed on very expensive glossy paper. The other part comprised of a single sheet of A4 blank except for my name and address.

Trying to flog the same old, worn out, white elephant. More pony paddocks now going, not for housing this time but for parking for HS2 trucks?

How did they get my personal details, no doubt from within because I am not on the public part of the roll. 

[henry d]

1 hour ago, WestonSalop said:

I am not a racist - I do not care what colour, race, creed or nationality, as long as people respect the law and customs of the UK. However, there is no doubt in my mind that until we face up to the fact that many of the issues facing us today point back to specific groups who are allowed to do what they want, at least in part because they know that the powers that be won't do anything for fear of accusations of racism, we will only scratch the surface. Something has to give.

Unfortunately it is not as simple as that. It has to do with poverty and power. Poor people are used by powerful people to do their bidding. Glasgow had it's razor gangs, Tyneside hairiest, etc etc. It had nothing to do with colour or ethnicity until recently, it's always had something to do with poverty and powerful people controlling them.

Regarding an "expensive trial" ; the benefits of reducing knife, and other, crime will quickly reduce the number of people entering the criminal justice system and save us a fortune. It's not an experiment, it works and unfortunately this and previous governments have stopped funding things like youth work and therefore we have this situation on our hands.

Before anyone starts equating youth work as clubs and other such things please get up to speed on what youth work actually is.

[WestonSalop]

3 minutes ago, henry d said:

Unfortunately it is not as simple as that. It has to do with poverty and power. Poor people are used by powerful people to do their bidding. Glasgow had it's razor gangs, Tyneside hairiest, etc etc. It had nothing to do with colour or ethnicity until recently, it's always had something to do with poverty and powerful people controlling them.

Regarding an "expensive trial" ; the benefits of reducing knife, and other, crime will quickly reduce the number of people entering the criminal justice system and save us a fortune. It's not an experiment, it works and unfortunately this and previous governments have stopped funding things like youth work and therefore we have this situation on our hands.

Before anyone starts equating youth work as clubs and other such things please get up to speed on what youth work actually is.

My views may have been a little simplistic and I agree that the problem is much deeper than just overcoming the objections of snowflakes to the need to face up to specific issues which may or may not involve cultural differences. To your point, there's an interesting article today on capitalism (or more appropriately, neo-capitalism) from a surprising source:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47532522

Capitalism in its current form leaves an increasing proportion of the population to fend for itself. I'm not suggesting communism or any other ism is better but there is a direct correlation between poverty and crime levels.