oowee Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 No one wants to bite the bullet and swallow the social and economic cost of a no deal Brexit. To expect any government to do that at the start of the negotiating process was a non starter. Despite all of the project fear rhetoric politicians can now see the implications of putting in place the protections required to keep some semblance of normality following a disorderly exit. Remember this is the easiest trade deal that we have on the table to negotiate ps no deal is not saving £40bn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 10 minutes ago, oowee said: No one wants to bite the bullet and swallow the social and economic cost of a no deal Brexit. To expect any government to do that at the start of the negotiating process was a non starter. Despite all of the project fear rhetoric politicians can now see the implications of putting in place the protections required to keep some semblance of normality following a disorderly exit. Remember this is the easiest trade deal that we have on the table to negotiate ps no deal is not saving £40bn Thankfully no one wants to bite the bullet and swallow the social and economic costs of a Corbyn lead government either 😋 No deal did not necessarily have to be the result of an early article 50 negotiation, but it would certainly have helped in stating the serious intent of the government, but that ship has long sailed. You talk of protections and normality of exit ? We have none, and only doubt exists about ever getting any. Couple that with uncertainty and division, also ongoing, is the government in control of Brexit ? Or just being washed along on the rapids towards the inevitable waterfall ? Also, no deal DOES save £40 bn, it might cost more in the end, it might cost far less, but in the interim, the divorce money should not be paid, until it is CLEARLY established what we are actually paying it for. I want to see figures of what we owe, and where, otherwise its just a bribe, or extortion, depending on how you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 German industrial production unexpectedly slumped in November, further evidence that a nine-year recovery in Europe’s largest economy is foundering. Production in Germany’s key industrial sector, adjusted for inflation and seasonal swings, fell 1.9% in November from the previous month. Economic experts’ consensus expectation was for a small rise… The decline in November production was broad-based and led by consumer goods and energy. Output was down 4.7% year-on-year, the most since the financial crisis. Carsten Brzeski, chief economist at ING Germany says “At face value, today’s industrial production data has clearly increased the risk of a technical recession in Germany in the second half of 2018”. In the circumstances German industry will be even less keen on the EU putting up export barriers to free trade with Britain… 15 hours ago, Rewulf said: Does anyone really believe the Russians paid for Brexit ? Only the mentally deranged Remoaners! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 44 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Thankfully no one wants to bite the bullet and swallow the social and economic costs of a Corbyn lead government either 😋 No deal did not necessarily have to be the result of an early article 50 negotiation, but it would certainly have helped in stating the serious intent of the government, but that ship has long sailed. You talk of protections and normality of exit ? We have none, and only doubt exists about ever getting any. Couple that with uncertainty and division, also ongoing, is the government in control of Brexit ? Or just being washed along on the rapids towards the inevitable waterfall ? Also, no deal DOES save £40 bn, it might cost more in the end, it might cost far less, but in the interim, the divorce money should not be paid, until it is CLEARLY established what we are actually paying it for. I want to see figures of what we owe, and where, otherwise its just a bribe, or extortion, depending on how you look at it. Agree with this. When I am talking about protections I am referring to all contingency stuff re ferries, lorry parking, medicines etc some of which are in place. It's clear no one is in control as there is no agreement on where to go. Unfortunately the wash out may be Corbyn but as with any radical doctrine If you press the button you reap the rewards I would also like to see those figures and suspect that much of it is to encourage EU positive thinking. Many years of turbulence to follow i think and all the time we are not getting on with everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 The EU has been getting a taste of its own medicine in Washington DC, with EU diplomats being frozen out of swanky gatherings after Donald Trump downgraded the EU delegation’s diplomatic status from “member state” to “international organisation”. The EU’s fantasies of being a superstate brought crashing back down to reality… Best of all, according to DW the US State Department didn’t even bother informing the EU about the demotion, leaving them to work it out for themselves as their ‘ambassador’ gradually stopped receiving invitations to parties. The EU finally clicked after he was snubbed at the state funeral for George H. W. Bush, only being called to pay respects dead last after 150 other foreign diplomats had already had their turn. A US official later said they “forgot” to tell them. Try not to shed a tear… 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 Following what was described to Guido as a ‘strategic risk assessment’, broadcasters have opted not to broadcast from College Green today in light of increased harassment of presenters and guests. There is also a noticeably heightened police presence in the area… Apparently a monitoring van has joined regular police vans around the corner from the broadcasting tents. A regular presenter from College Green has told Guido that this is a decision taken by their superiors, they expect to be back tomorrow. Funny how after weeks of idiots shouting at ‘Leavers’, action is only taken when Remainers are shouted at… Source Guido Fawkes 9 hours ago, oowee said: Paid for, no. Likely to have influenced and contributed to, yes. Benefit from, definitely. Benefit? How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 8 hours ago, oowee said: We were not voting for anything Cameron, Borris or anyone else said none of them had the authority to set the future. Surely Cameron had some authority, he was the leader of the UK government at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 8 hours ago, oowee said: We voted to leave the EU. We will leave the EU and democracy is respected. That is democracy. We were not voting for anything Cameron, Borris or anyone else said none of them had the authority to set the future. We knew what we were voting for. We knew we were voting to leave the EU. I understand that maybe you thought you were voting based on some commentary but the ballot paper was clear. What is also abundantly clear is that leaving the EU has a range of possible consequences some of which may be harmful to the economic position of the country. The debate is now about which of these options is least 'costly' rather than over the decision of the referendum. I accept that there are some who are looking to reverse the decision to leave and force another vote. That's politics in action and surely another facet of democracy. It would be wrong to not enact the will of the people even if they change their minds. The people have NOT changed their minds......after a two and a half year barrage of fake news, and propaganda from an establishment that refuses to abide by the clear decision of the majority of voters to LEAVE the EU..............that is NOT democracy, and you know it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) All of the big Heads of Government gatherings have the Presidents, Prime Ministers, Chancellors etc. from each country - and always you see there with them Juncker (President of the European Commission)tottering around looking plastered and Tusk (President of the European Council) scowling at everyone. Remember - they are simply the equivalent of Civil servants. Trump is right to treat them as such. Edited January 8, 2019 by JohnfromUK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 9 hours ago, 12gauge82 said: Cameron is the man that called the referendum, it was on his terms that leave should have meant leaving, just as if the country had voted to remain there would have been no argument or back pedalling, while I completely accept anyone can have a different view to myself that leaving the EU would be fantastic for this country and the working masses, if you really cannot see that the leave vote has been subverted because Cameron and most of parliament never thought the country would vote leave I can only assume you have no grasp whatsoever of the brexit issue, if it is simply that you are refusing to admit it, like many remainiacs it is nothing short of treacherous anti democratic behaviour and is a stain on our country. Absolutely correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 8 hours ago, oowee said: We voted to leave the EU. We will leave the EU and democracy is respected. That is democracy. We were not voting for anything Cameron, Borris or anyone else said none of them had the authority to set the future. We knew what we were voting for. We knew we were voting to leave the EU. I understand that maybe you thought you were voting based on some commentary but the ballot paper was clear. What is also abundantly clear is that leaving the EU has a range of possible consequences some of which may be harmful to the economic position of the country. The debate is now about which of these options is least 'costly' rather than over the decision of the referendum. I accept that there are some who are looking to reverse the decision to leave and force another vote. That's politics in action and surely another facet of democracy. It would be wrong to not enact the will of the people even if they change their minds. The current deal that May is offering is NOT Leaving the EU, it still leaves them holding the whip hand! And it will NOT stop the movement to be free of these unelected bureaucrats! You talk a lot about democracy, yet you are happy to be ruled by an unelected bunch of Commissioners in Brussels! You cannot be "half in - half out"...It,s IN or OUT! And we voted OUT! Anyone who thinks that a half-baked deal like May,s, keeping us tied to Europe, will be the end of the matter, clearly deluded! This goes on until we are OUT and FREE again! If we then make mistakes along the way, so what? At least they will be mistakes made by a FREE people! 8 hours ago, oowee said: We knew what we were voting for and we voted to leave. If we leave under Mays deal that is democracy delivered. RUBBISH! TOTAL RUBBISH! From a Remoaner! 8 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: May's deal where we have to get the EU's agreement before we can exit the 'backstop' to the transition plan (should we enter it - as we almost certainly would) falls flat and is completely unacceptable on that issue alone. We actually become more tied in if we enter that so called 'backstop'. Correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, scolopax said: I am still very much on the fence with this Brexit thing, we live in interesting times as they say... But as the word democracy is flung around so many times almost as a weapon, I have a hypothetical question to you all on both sides If Corbyn somehow was put into power, and had a public referendum, lets say on banning all non pest control shooting, shooting for fun as the antis like to desribe it, and the vote went 52% for a ban. Would we all be so keen on adhering to the principle of democrarcy then? We would have no choice, as it would be enacted into law! To break that law would entail loss of licence! But it would not stop peaceful protest, and recruiting other organisations to help put back into government a party that would overturn such a bad law! And that is totally different to the Brexit argument, where we have decided to leave n undemocratic Federal Union, to go our own way as free peoples! Edited January 8, 2019 by pinfireman spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 8 hours ago, Good shot? said: Surely we must agree that with Mays deal we are not leaving the EU but are simply locking ourselves in with absolutely no way of them allowing us to get any future deal that fulfills any of the criteria we want. The above is under no doubt to all but die hard Remainiacs. True! 7 hours ago, sportsbob said: Cameron quite clearly said we would leave the the EU no renegotiation etc etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7qZhlrbcB8 If any loser can find me anything anywhere pre referendum where this statement was withdrawn, amended or added to saying things similar to we will negotiate with the EU as to the conditions of how we leave then I and millions of other winners will shut up. If the losers cant do that which I firmly believe if they could they would have done so by now then perhaps it would be beneficial to us all if they stopped constantly whining and trying to pervert the outcome of the vote. Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 http://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-seven-deadly-sins-in-the-draft-withdrawal-agreement/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 6 hours ago, Rewulf said: Thats an interesting answer. The NCA investigation into Banks 'fraud' concerns 'illegal' financing of vote leave, the Russian money thing has been bandied about the media without challenge.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/17/why-isnt-there-greater-outrage-about-russian-involvement-in-brexit After the vote[edit] December 2016, Ben Bradshaw MP claimed in Parliament that Russia had interfered in the Brexit referendum campaign.[6] In February 2017, Bradshaw called on the British intelligence service, Government Communications Headquarters, then under Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary, to reveal any information it had on Russian interference.[7] October 2017, Members of Parliament in the Culture, Media and Sport Committee demanded that Facebook, Twitter, Google, and other social media corporations disclose all adverts and details of payments by Russia in the Brexit campaign.[8] November 2017, it became public knowledge that Matthew Elliott, the chief executive of Vote Leave, was a founding member of Conservative Friends of Russia, and had been a target asset by someone known to be a Russian spy.[9] 12 December 2017, members of the US Congress Ruben Gallego, Eric Swalwell and Gerry Connolly wrote to the Director of National Intelligence requesting information on Russian interference in the Brexit vote.[10] On 13 December 2017, Facebook stated that it found no significant Russian activity during Brexit, but this[clarification needed] was immediately rejected by the committee chair, Damian Collins, as being information that was already public after US investigations into Russian interference.[11] January 2018, a US Senate minority report suggested possible ways Russia may have influenced the Brexit campaign.[12] It stated,[13] “ The Russian government has sought to influence democracy in the United Kingdom through disinformation, cyber hacking, and corruption. While a complete picture of the scope and nature of Kremlin interference in the UK's June 2016 referendum is still emerging, Prime Minister Theresa May and the UK government have condemned the Kremlin’s active measures, and various UK government entities, including the Electoral Commission and parliamentarians, have launched investigations into different aspects of possible Russian government meddling. ” June 2018, The Guardian suggested that Arron Banks, the biggest donor to the campaign for leaving, and co-organiser of Leave.EU received the offer of a Russian gold mine, and had had a series of meetings with the Russian Ambassador. On 14 June 2018, Banks appeared before Parliamentary committee hearing, where he appeared to admit to having lied about his engagements with Russians, and later walked out refusing to answer further questions by citing a luncheon appointment with the Democratic Unionist Party.[14][not in citation given] July 2018, the House of Commons Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, released an interim report on 'Disinformation and ‘fake news’', stating that Russia had engaged in "unconventional warfare" through Twitter and other social media against the United Kingdom, designed to amplify support for a "leave" vote in Brexit.[15] 20 September, AggregateIQ, a Canadian political consultancy and analytics company, receives the first GDPR notice issued by the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) for using people's data "for purposes which they would not have expected." Various pro-Brexit campaigns paid the company £3.5 million to target ads at prospective voters. While its Brexit work was before the GDPR went into effect, it was fined because it retained and continued to use the data after the GDPR came into full force. The company is affiliated with SCL Group and Cambridge Analytica, and Cambridge Analytica employees sometimes call AggregateIQ "our Canadian office."[16] November 2018, a criminal investigation of Banks was launched after the Electoral Commission concluded "we have reasonable grounds to suspect that: Mr Banks was not the true source of the £8m reported as loans" and "Various criminal offences may have been committed."[17] Also despite the social media companies investigating the claims of Russian collusion, they found minimal evidence ? A claim that didnt fit with the overall narrative. So are the multi billion $ social media giants 'in on it ' too ? This is what it comes down to at the end of the day, and you can look at Trumps campaign and election for a comparison. The Russian narrative comes into effect, when the result of a vote doesnt go the way the main stream political class wants. Its painfully predictable, blame the Russkies , they will complain or ignore it , but no one is interested because lets face it, if an 'unnamed source' said that Putin ate a freshly born child every morning for breakfast, few in the west would bat an eyelid, probably mutter 'knew he were a wrong un' 2 years and more has passed since Brexit and Trump, and still we hear of Russian collusion in both, to somehow invalidate the results. 2 years of the most thorough investigations, statements and accusations, and not one shred of proof has emerged, and evidence to the contrary has been rubbished. Like a lot of media scat thrown around in this day and age, they seem to hope some of it will stick. Unfortunately a lot of it stays on the hands. As usual, the losers hope that by slinging lots of mud, some will stick! How about ALL the colusion HM Government were involved ion during, and after the Referendum? I see the Election Commission has turned a blind eye to tjhis, despite evidence being given to them by a Tory MP..... 4 hours ago, Rewulf said: WHO is messing about ? If we had a government that wasnt pro remain, if we had signed article 50 within a few weeks of the Ref result, if we had a negotiating team that didnt have their hands tied behind their backs by that same pro remain government, who have bent over backwards to accommodate Brussels, and promise them whatever they wanted, then we would have been out by now, done and dusted. JohnUK has it down right, we have spent 2.5 years giving in to Brussels on virtually everything, its been a stalling tactic, and its lead to what ? A withdrawal agreement that parliament wont pass 🤣 Now they want to vote through a motion that means the legal basis for leaving in March is repealed ? ! To clarify, we offer the EU a means to keep us in the customs union, with every restriction that entails, a 21 month transition period, the possibility of fracturing the union, £40 bn (for the moment) for nothing but the chance to continue negotiating ? What a cracking deal ! 😂 But no, thats not good enough for the remainers in the house, rather than the legal fall back option of 'no deal' a scenario many consider favourable, and £40 bn cheaper, they want to illegally remove that option. To what ? Another 2 years of fruitless negotiations, or what they really want.. remain in the EU. If that is the house 'representing ' the people who elect them, then they are not fit for purpose. and should be forever labelled as traitors! And suffer the penalties that traitors have to face............. 3 hours ago, oowee said: No one wants to bite the bullet and swallow the social and economic cost of a no deal Brexit. To expect any government to do that at the start of the negotiating process was a non starter. Despite all of the project fear rhetoric politicians can now see the implications of putting in place the protections required to keep some semblance of normality following a disorderly exit. Remember this is the easiest trade deal that we have on the table to negotiate ps no deal is not saving £40bn "No one"...........are you for real? Most of us have accepted that there MAY be an economic cost (what "social cost" could there be?) and we are prepared to face that, in order to be FREE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Good shot? said: Me simplifying the issue does not alter the end game it all ends up us tied in the EU with further cost and nothing we want agreed to. There is a certainty about this process, due to the ineptitude, arrogance and unwillingness of our politicos to follow our democratic vote we as a country will definitely be worse off as a result? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 But we will be free. We`d only be worse off if we shackled ourselves to the "failing state" that is the EU. The EU will surely implode after we leave and we can finally kill the notion of an overarching European superstate and carry on doing what we`ve done with Europe for thousands of years - trading with them, but not being governed by them. As an aside, what do you Remainers imagine the population of Europe, especially the French, will be doing when goods are held up in customs in BOTH directions and the effect of the bloody mindedness of the Eurofuhrers starts to seriously damage the economy of France, Germany etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 Parliament has DELIBERATELY increased the risk of damage and disruption from a "no deal" scenario https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46803112 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 I think some on here need to go back and have a look at what we voted for. Not what you think we voted for, not what you believe is implied, not what you hope for, not what you dreamed about or what Borris, Putin or Mogg wants just the actual words of the ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) Saw a piece on Bolsover this afternoon and it would appear the number of remain voters who have now changed to leave has increased dramatically and Bolsover had a 70% leave vote in the referendum. Even a shop steward Labour activist is changing his vote to leave after seeing and listening to the things coming out of Brussels. Bolsover is still a fairly safe Labour seat although The Beast has had his majority slashed in the last two elections. The main reason...immigration and immigrants taking jobs at low wages and not integrating. Just in my own small social every day talks I get the feeling that situation is well spread across the country, probably Londonistan not included. Panic is now setting in on both sides of the Channel. They might have to do what the public told them to do after all. Sneaky backroom talks ..Westminster to Brussels on how they could extend Article 50 tells you all you need to know about our political class. Roll on the 29th, I can't wait. Edited January 8, 2019 by Walker570 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 I booked brexit week off to go fishing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 40 minutes ago, oowee said: I think some on here need to go back and have a look at what we voted for. Not what you think we voted for, not what you believe is implied, not what you hope for, not what you dreamed about or what Borris, Putin or Mogg wants just the actual words of the ballot. We did! It,s you who is prevaricating! Try looking at the Oxford Dictionary definition of the word "leave"....it means to GO AWAY FROM! yu are one of those trying to find ways to lock us into the EU. You lost, get over it, move on..... 23 minutes ago, Walker570 said: Saw a piece on Bolsover this afternoon and it would appear the number of remain voters who have now changed to leave has increased dramatically and Bolsover had a 70% leave vote in the referendum. Even a shop steward Labour activist is changing his vote to leave after seeing and listening to the things coming out of Brussels. Bolsover is still a fairly safe Labour seat although The Beast has had his majority slashed in the last two elections. The main reason...immigration and immigrants taking jobs at low wages and not integrating. Just in my own small social every day talks I get the feeling that situation is well spread across the country, probably Londonistan not included. Panic is now setting in on both sides of the Channel. They might have to do what the public told them to do after all. Sneaky backroom talks ..Westminster to Brussels on how they could extend Article 50 tells you all you need to know about our political class. Roll on the 29th, I can't wait. Correct! Some of those who either voted Remain, or failed to vote, in my neighbourhood, have now changed their minds, and would vote Leave! They have had the smell of success at kicking the politicians, and want more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Walker570 said: Saw a piece on Bolsover this afternoon and it would appear the number of remain voters who have now changed to leave has increased dramatically and Bolsover had a 70% leave vote in the referendum. Even a shop steward Labour activist is changing his vote to leave after seeing and listening to the things coming out of Brussels. Bolsover is still a fairly safe Labour seat although The Beast has had his majority slashed in the last two elections. The main reason...immigration and immigrants taking jobs at low wages and not integrating. Just in my own small social every day talks I get the feeling that situation is well spread across the country, probably Londonistan not included. Panic is now setting in on both sides of the Channel. They might have to do what the public told them to do after all. Sneaky backroom talks ..Westminster to Brussels on how they could extend Article 50 tells you all you need to know about our political class. Roll on the 29th, I can't wait. Neither can I my friend, I feel another referendum would increase the vote of the sane and just tell the EU where to go but hopefully by then they and the remoaners would be in the ****pit they created. Edited January 8, 2019 by das Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just now, pinfireman said: We did! It,s you who is prevaricating! Try looking at the Oxford Dictionary definition of the word "leave"....it means to GO AWAY FROM! yu are one of those trying to find ways to lock us into the EU. You lost, get over it, move on..... Nope. Happy to leave the EU in line with the vote. Lets get on with it 😉 Sooner we leave the sooner we can sort our trade deal and get back to business market needs some stability. 7 minutes ago, cookoff013 said: I booked brexit week off to go fishing That sounds like a good move. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 Sky Austraila - a non-bias summary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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