Newbie to this Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, Rewulf said: our political class has interwoven themselves into 'Future Europe' and some of them will only let go when they absolutely have to. This is possibly the reason why. http://www.vernoncoleman.com/ted.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: This is possibly the reason why. http://www.vernoncoleman.com/ted.html Cheers, although I knew about the Charlemagne prize, I didnt realise that it was also a cash one. The other recipients, and the nature of the Charlemagne (Kalergi ) prize make interesting reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFC Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: This is possibly the reason why. http://www.vernoncoleman.com/ted.html This was one of the main reasons for my vote to leave. Remoaners complain that Brexiteers won the vote based on lies. Well we were taken into the EU on lies in the first place. No accounts, corruption, run by an unelected commission, unable to catch a Bass for my dinner, decimated fish stocks and billions of pounds wasted, including shipping the whole shebang between Brussels and Strasbourg every month, which I think is utter insanity, were all reasons to leave. Immigration was way down my list of reasons to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Boris both writes (or has written) a good speech, and delivers it well. However, I'm not a Boris supporter (though I do admit he has many good qualities). My scepticism over Boris is down to things like this; Before the referendum vote, Boris 'sat on the fence' for a long time before coming out as a leaver. He is alleged have to have had speeches prepared to support both remain and leave. My personal view is that he was watching which way the wind was blowing and plotting a path he felt was 'good for Boris', not what was good for others, the country, or his party. I think everything Boris does is a political game aimed at furthering his career, and that includes his recent resignation. He is a politician, and a clever one. He isn't a statesman (in my view). I think he resigned because he sees things going wrong, doesn't want to get hit by the 'fallout' when it all hits the fan, but wants to be in a position to say 'told you so', and use the outcome to further his own political career. One BIG problem with people like that is that when they get the result they have been working for (to the top post in this case), they loose interest, and move onto the next objective - and who knows what that may be? It won't be for anyone other than Boris. Sureiy that's just normal politicking, looking to exploit the situation for personal gain not usually taking the best decision for the benefit of the country at large? The intransigent position adopted by the EU negotiators speaks volumes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 A politician with principles? That's a tough one. Frank Field springs to mind, but no others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Gordon R said: A politician with principles? That's a tough one. Frank Field springs to mind, but no others. The late Lord (Peter) Carrington, who died quite recently and a grand old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 6 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Boris both writes (or has written) a good speech, and delivers it well. However, I'm not a Boris supporter (though I do admit he has many good qualities). My scepticism over Boris is down to things like this; Before the referendum vote, Boris 'sat on the fence' for a long time before coming out as a leaver. He is alleged have to have had speeches prepared to support both remain and leave. My personal view is that he was watching which way the wind was blowing and plotting a path he felt was 'good for Boris', not what was good for others, the country, or his party. I think everything Boris does is a political game aimed at furthering his career, and that includes his recent resignation. He is a politician, and a clever one. He isn't a statesman (in my view). I think he resigned because he sees things going wrong, doesn't want to get hit by the 'fallout' when it all hits the fan, but wants to be in a position to say 'told you so', and use the outcome to further his own political career. One BIG problem with people like that is that when they get the result they have been working for (to the top post in this case), they loose interest, and move onto the next objective - and who knows what that may be? It won't be for anyone other than Boris. I think your spot on with this post, Jason Rees Mogg would be my pick in the conservatives at the moment. Although if the conservatives retrograde on Brexit, I can see a huge resurgence from UKIP, or a new party run by Farage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 12 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: I think your spot on with this post, Jason Rees Mogg would be my pick in the conservatives at the moment. Although if the conservatives retrograde on Brexit, I can see a huge resurgence from UKIP, or a new party run by Farage. Who? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) Quote The late Lord (Peter) Carrington, who died quite recently and a grand old age. John - it's a shame that we need to cite dead people with principles. It doesn't say a lot for the current crop. Edited July 19, 2018 by Gordon R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 5 hours ago, Rewulf said: Can anyone here tell me what the EU , during these negotiations, have offered US ? You can scratch your heads as long as you want, the answer is NOTHING. I stand corrected, they have given us something in response to Mays capitulation proposals. This just in , what amounts to an ULTIMATUM. https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/communication-preparing-withdrawal-brexit-preparedness.pdf The summary on the first page should tell you all you need to know, rather than reading the whole sorry mess. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 20 minutes ago, Gordon R said: It doesn't say a lot for the current crop. That is very true, and even thinking back, they are pretty thin on the ground; Some others I might consider include Austin Mitchell (still alive) Lord Hume and Jim Callaghan (both dead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 49 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Who? ? ?I of course meant Jacob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsbob Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 8 hours ago, Newbie to this said: This is possibly the reason why. http://www.vernoncoleman.com/ted.html Or is this closer to the truth ? http://www.westernspring.co.uk/the-coudenhove-kalergi-plan-the-genocide-of-the-peoples-of-europe/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 1 hour ago, sportsbob said: Or is this closer to the truth ? http://www.westernspring.co.uk/the-coudenhove-kalergi-plan-the-genocide-of-the-peoples-of-europe/ Interesting read, some of this is pointed out in the FCO 30/1048 document which the government filed under the official secrets act. Below is a link to another thread with a link to the document if you haven't seen it. https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/363006-brexit-merged-threads/?do=findComment&comment=3353078 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsbob Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 I missed that I'll have a look at that tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 Well, its been an hour since Barnier should have started his speech, giving the EUs response to Mays Chequers proposal. Id put money on it being a full rejection, but who knows what goes on in the corridors of power hey ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 Let's hope it is a full rejection, then we can get on with leaving the white elephant to die in the wilderness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Rewulf said: Id put money on it being a full rejection, Of course it will be a rejection. The EU can't compromise on the integrity of the single market because the single market is the beating heart of the EU. May's proposals were designed to fail from the get-go. Either that or this government is so stupid that the mind boggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Of course it will be a rejection. The EU can't compromise on the integrity of the single market because the single market is the beating heart of the EU. May's proposals were designed to fail from the get-go. Either that or this government is so stupid that the mind boggles. I wouldnt wager on them not being, put it that way. But equally the EU is sacrificing its own citizens economies, and business/jobs ect on bonfire of Federal Europe, or theyre so stupid the mind boggles ? 7 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Let's hope it is a full rejection, then we can get on with leaving the white elephant to die in the wilderness. I really cant see anything different happening now, but I never really did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rewulf said: But equally the EU is sacrificing its own citizens economies, and business/jobs ect on bonfire of Federal Europe A Federal Europe is the overriding goal of those who actually 'run' the EU (when they are sufficiently sober to see the goal). They would have no second thoughts about sacrificing businesses and jobs to achieve that end. It is increasingly clear that the actual decisions are being made by the likes of Martyn Selmayr (who is an unelected official). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Rewulf said: But equally the EU is sacrificing its own citizens economies, and business/jobs ect on bonfire of Federal Europe, or theyre so stupid the mind boggles ? The issue predates a 'federal' Europe and all the empire building from Brussels. This is Common Market stuff. Within the EU there is free movement of goods, services and labour. It was THE founding principle on which the whole edifice has been built. And once you're out of the EU you can't suddenly say, I'll have the services and some of the goods but not others and as for the labour ....well maybe from here but not there.... It's never, ever, going to fly. That's not to support Brussels in any way at all. But the stuff that this government is offering up is positively child-like.Which is why I"m convinced it's a ruse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: A Federal Europe is the overriding goal of those who actually 'run' the EU (when they are sufficiently sober to see the goal). They would have no second thoughts about sacrificing businesses and jobs to achieve that end. It is increasingly clear that the actual decisions are being made by the likes of Martyn Selmayr (who is an unelected official). Theyre all unelected, except for parliament. The fact is, if the people of Europe see themselves being chucked on the fire , for the aims of the elite, they shouldnt be too happy about it ? 2 minutes ago, Retsdon said: The issue predates a 'federal' Europe and all the empire building from Brussels. This is Common Market stuff. Within the EU there is free movement of goods, services and labour. It was THE founding principle on which the whole edifice has been built. And once you're out of the EU you can't suddenly say, I'll have the services and some of the goods but not others and as for the labour ....well maybe from here but not there.... It's never, ever, going to fly. That's not to support Brussels in any way at all. But the stuff that this government is offering up is positively child-like.Which is why I"m convinced it's a ruse. So how does Switzerland get away with it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 I don't care what scares are thrown up every day, I just want out. The latest are more violence against gays, no milk, no butter, no flying over Eire, extra costs to travel into Europe. The heatwave has been brought about by Brexit and when it rains, it will be to blame again. It is truly pathetic. A club run by a drunk, who can't bear the thought of a member leaving. If things are going to be so bad, why don't they let us get on with it and save their smugness for that day? I am sure that some excuses will be found for Switzerland, but that is all they will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, Rewulf said: So how does Switzerland get away with it ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations They pay in, dance to the tune, and shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Theyre all unelected, except for parliament. That one is a bit arguable; the commissioner (JC Juncker) is elected by MEPs as a sort of electoral college - who are elected by us. The 28 members of the European Commission are chosen one from each country (by the elected government of that country). 3 minutes ago, Gordon R said: no flying over Eire Send planes with an RAF escort - that WILL rattle them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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