Brexit - merged threads

[Raja Clavata]

I think we are getting to the crux of it all now, and let's not forget this is an evolving landscape.

Cameron called the referendum as a political stunt, he said whatever he thought needed to be said and didn't care or think about the leave implications too much as never dreamt the outcome would be leave. The minute he resigned all his promises evaporated. He lied, legal instruments should exist to bring him to account over this in the same way Blair should have been too.

Farage stepped down, apparently considering the job done. Err D'oh!

Johnson steps away because he's bright enough to know the whole thing will wreck his career a future PM aspirations.

A General election is called where both "major" parties pledge to deliver an unspecified Brexit - at this point it would have been  political suicide not to.

Parliament vote to trigger article 50 - same as above but clearly some are wobbling at this stage.

It now appears that neither major party were ever going to deliver a no-deal Brexit, as far as they are concerned it was on the table as a negotiating tool.

So those that voted Leave on the basis of WTO terms appear to have been sold a pup as the only people who might have delivered that were UKIP (which imploded) and ERG (too radical for mainstream conservatives).

For all the wrongs of parliament and MPs, we the people under a representative democracy basis voted them in to represent us on the basis that they know what they are doing and will ultimately act in the best interests of the nation as a whole and their constituents in particular. The party politics are more or less played out on this so it appears that the MPs are now acting in what they believe is the best interests of the nation and their constituents. What they are doing aligns with my preferred outcome on Brexit but apparently not the majority of the contributors to this thread. None of us know what the current voice of the masses is.

I accept and understand the viewpoint of this being undemocratic but believe it's a little bit more complicated than that - again back to a grey area.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

OMG!

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

If the Leavers are all cock sure it was the correct outcome then and remains the correct outcome now then what do they fear so much over a second vote that clearly spells out the details?

Seriously? I voted leave because I believe the EU to be undemocratic and inherently corrupt, and for no others reasons. 

The fact that it demands billions off us to leave and still makes further demands only strengthens that belief. 

As a leaver I’m not afraid another referendum. I just simply and utterly believe that if you believe in democracy then there cannot be another in or out vote; that vote has been decided. If we make a mockery of that decision, and fail to honour it, then what is the point? 

What are you afraid of by leaving? 

[Raja Clavata]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

OMG 😲 A Brexit betrayal !

 

OMG 😲 So you didnt know what you were voting for ?

 

OMG 😲 You have friends who are xenophobes and racists ?

 

OMG 😲 So youve tried to 'get into' your good racist friends minds , and been accused of being patronising ,and possibly insinuating they are not clever enough to know what they were voting for, obviously triggering their xenophobic neanderthal 'defence' mechanisms ?
I cant think why that would be 

Too many OMGs and not a very grown up response. Why not cut to the chase and enlighten us all on the personal benefits you forsee in Brexit!?

[Newbie to this]

[Raja Clavata]

7 minutes ago, Scully said:

Seriously? I voted leave because I believe the EU to be undemocratic and inherently corrupt, and for no others reasons. 

The fact that it demands billions off us to leave and still makes further demands only strengthens that belief. 

As a leaver I’m not afraid another referendum. I just simply and utterly believe that if you believe in democracy then there cannot be another in or out vote; that vote has been decided. If we make a mockery of that decision, and fail to honour it, then what is the point? 

What are you afraid of by leaving? 

I agree there are undemocratic aspects of the EU but would you agree it's less undemocratic than it used to be, at least in terms of how the commission operate?

Inherent corruptness is a broad brush so we'd need to discuss specifics?

I understand your position on the referendum but as things stand it looks like we could end up in remain or perpetual no mans land without any further say. Given the choice I would vote out on WTO terms in preference to the current deal proposed by government but I don't think that choice will be made available to us.

My main fears on leaving are manufacturing, the broader engineering sector and future opportunities that will be afforded to my kids as a result of Brexit. Happy to discuss these in more detail...

[Mice!]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I agree there are undemocratic aspects of the EU but would you agree it's less undemocratic than it used to be, at least in terms of how the commission operate?

Inherent corruptness is a broad brush so we'd need to discuss specifics?

I understand your position on the referendum but as things stand it looks like we could end up in remain or perpetual no mans land without any further say. Given the choice I would vote out on WTO terms in preference to the current deal proposed by government but I don't think that choice will be made available to us.

My main fears on leaving are manufacturing, the broader engineering sector and future opportunities that will be afforded to my kids as a result of Brexit. Happy to discuss these in more detail...

You must have missed my earlier comments on why i wanted to leave.

but as for your final paragraph above, I'm an engineer with kids, if we kept being forced by a foreign power to allow unlimited migration where are our kids going to work or live? 

If we are getting skilled motivated people who have gone through a process then great, such as Australia do, but just allowing in everybody and expecting infrastructure NHS housing to cope, that's just Corbyns dream of more votes.

[pinfireman]

11 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Allowing that (perhaps) up to a million voters that weren't allowed to vote but did anyway, the figure would have been closer to 45% v 55% leave. If the leave vote is thwarted don't disregard the backlash or the damage that will be done to parliamentary democracy for generations...…………..

History will reveal that Oliver Robbins rather than Theresa May negotiated brexit  and he was a staunch remainer 

How very true!

6 hours ago, Retsdon said:

So you want to do away with the NHS?

I NEVER said that, merely making the point how badly it is administrated!  Blair / Brown bragged, in the run up to the 2010 General Election, that they had succesfully created 65,000 jobs in the NHS. What they failed to tell you was that only 9,000 were medical staff. The rest were admin.  All on good salaries, and pensions! That money could be better spent on patient care!

[pinfireman]

5 hours ago, Jaymo said:

What about the 10 million who were registered to vote but didn’t, maybe it would have been a landslide Remain?

Whether it was complacency or confidence of ‘Remain’ winning, possibly ‘couldn’t be bothered or care less’, that lead to them not voting, but it does make  you think.

Had those 10 mill voted ‘Leave’, then yes, I think that would have been the sort of majority that would have ‘fully’ confirmed the wishes of ‘All the people’ ......

 

Those who did not perhaps believed the total garbage in Project Fear, put out by the side you supported?  As for the  kind of majority you suggest (which has NEVER been achieved in any democracy)  perhaps that means that the Party elected at a General Election, do not have a mandate to govern, as their popular vote is often  very close to that of the opposition?

3 hours ago, Scully said:

But it’s not about ‘all the people’ is it? It’s about those who could be bothered to vote, just as it is in any general election or otherwise.

Blairs government came into power with a landslide victory, but did ‘all’ the people vote? No. 

The majority of all those who voted in the referendum, voted to leave; that result should be honoured. What would be the outcome if the result of a general election received the same scandalous campaigning to overturn it as the referendum has? 

If we don’t leave, I sincerely hope Labour win the next GE, with Corbyn at the helm and Abbott as HS. Those who forecast oblivion if we leave the EU, will hopefully then get what they truly deserve. 

Correct!

3 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

Although that thought did send a shiver down my spine, I totally agree with you. Let them see what utter madness this raving madman would cause. 

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

So you believe the compass of the people you know is representative of the entire UK population. I've not read all 188 pages of this thread but it's self evident that Remainers are under-represented and I suspect have previously been shouted down.

You keep spouting on about Project Fear lies but seem unwilling to accept the Leavers had an equal hand in lying for their cause.

I have never claimed to be a Leaver. I do accept that 52% voted to leave in 2016.

Now you are getting into proper Osama Bin Brexit fantasist territory. I came back to PW as my FAC is up for renewal and was looking for a scope when I just happened upon this thread.

I have nothing to say on Tony Benn.

I'll put a post up to clarify exactly why I am here in a few...

Please list the Leave lies, (you can pass on the £350 million on the bus, we accept that was only an "ambition", not a fact). 

As for Tony Benn, I detested the man,s politics, but he was right about one thing..........he detested the EU.

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

If we don't leave then there's no reason to vote Corbyn and his lot in. But I view five years of Corbyn as a lesser evil than Brexit so would vote Labour for the first time if it meant staying in the EU or returning after leaving because Brexit isn't political in the traditional sense it's ideological.

It,s political.....

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Priceless rubbish. It was spelt out that leave meant leave.

Topped only by this.

 

Excellent!

[Rewulf]

26 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Too many OMGs and not a very grown up response. Why not cut to the chase and enlighten us all on the personal benefits you forsee in Brexit!?

Im a leaver, so Im thick, and cant talk grown up 

As far as the 'benefits' of Brexit , maybe one day when we actually leave we'll find out for certain.

What people of your persuasion fail to recognise, is that most of the people who voted to leave didnt actually envisage the benefits as such, but more what the EU was turning into, and thus dragging us unwillingly with it.
You say youre  not pro EU , but you voted to stay anyway, why ? You dont like change ? Youre of a nervous disposition ,and fear the unknown ?

Of all those people who voted to leave, some I expect were scared too, but they weighed up the lesser of 2 evils, one being a step into the unknown, the other ,ending up a 'state' in a bEUrocratic superstate that considers national pride as a thing of the past, something to be ashamed of, whilst promoting ITSELF as something you need to be loyal to.
Forget your national identity, but take on the European identity, an oxymoron.
Or the mounting cost and red tape , with its isolationalist policies.
The fact that come 2020, the Lisbon treaty reaches its 'maturity' where sweeping new laws and changes will need to be bought in, EU army, EU tax settings, forced Euro and more quotas.

And not once have I mentioned immigration !

What you need to do is take the blinkers off, and do some research, and see just how bad EU membership has become, and its not because its a bad idea.
Ive stated many times on these threads , the basic premise of a trading organisation in Europe is a good thing, but the EU is a poor manager, and why we need this body to manage our laws, finances and politics for us , I cant imagine, do we not have enough politicians already? Between £6 - 7 billion in admin for the EU alone, then they start talking about poverty as they are quaffing champagne and tucking into lobster that we pay for.

I think Im wasting my time, because your mind is set.
But dont break down leavers reasons into 'bloody foreigners' and 'the bus' because that not only shows ignorance, but also an unwillingness to engage with differing views, and a lack of respect.
Be better than that.
 

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

In response to pinfireman and in danger of a one or two line put down from the seemingly self appointed PW Brexit Demagogue, but anyway here goes...

In the run up to the referendum, for me personally the whole IN or OUT of Brexit was a massive grey area, my initial bias was towards OUT but as I weighed up the pros and cons I increasingly became uncertain that was the correct choice for me, in a sense it was a case of the more I learnt the less I knew. In the discussions with close friends and family during this phase I was surprised that a number of them saw it in very black and white terms, or at least those that were in the OUT camp did.

In the final discussions prior to the vote I was astonished to find out both my brother and my life long best friend had voted out by post well in advance of the deadline - people that had previously confided in me with personal issues and asked for my opinion on choices, just as I had with them, had already "pulled their Brexit trigger". 

I can't speak for others but during this period I was barely if at all biased one way or the other by the mainstream media or press. Bottom line come voting day was that I could not vote for something as important as Brexit without details of what the vote meant in real terms, so I voted remain. 

So I've been curious all along about how the people that voted OUT did so with so much conviction, in clear black and white terms. This is what I have concluded from discussions with Leavers close to me:

Two of my best mates are cabbies and their logic is something like: We hate Uber, Uber drivers are foreigners, so we don't like foreigners and they come from the EU, let's leave.

One of my other best mates is a spark: "To be honest Mick, I didn't understand all the details so voted purely on the basis of immigration as our sites are full of Eastern bloc workers".

One of my other mates renovates houses and runs a few other things in the background but nothing like a "proper job" - he now blames foreign workers for preventing him from earning a decent living.

Intrigued by these and others I have really tried to get into the minds of the leavers mentality but have repeatedly hit the methaphoric brick wall with retorts of the standard diatribe along the lines of being patronising and / or suggesting Leavers are stupid. Standard and well trodden defence mechanisms. Yet through all these discussions I have yet to hear a single tangible personal benefit that any Leaver has been able to cite to support their decision to vote Leave.

If anyone has a tangible personal benefit for leaving that they can propose then I would love to learn of it!?

Over to you pinfireman et. al...

Does "tangible personal benefit"  mean  "how much cash will it put in my pocket"? The answer is easy. You cannot put a price on freedom!  I want to be a citizen of a FREE COUNTRY, not a Federal State! Where we make ALL our own laws. Where we decide who comes, and goes! Where we arrange trade deals with who we want, not who we are forced to deal with.  Lots more reasons, but I wont bore you with them......you too have a polarised view. I have never viewed leaving as a way to improve MY personal benefits...If I am worse off, so be it. But I will be a free man, in a free country, and you cannot put a value on that. Those who wish to Remain, on the grounds of personal benefit, are merely taking the EU,s  30 pieces of silver. 

Lastly, I do not want to be a little yellow star on the blue tea towel that the EU calls a flag.

1 hour ago, scutt said:

OK for you personally the hole in or out Brexit was a grey area .For the folk you picked out as examples it was black and white NO it was Personal opinions. 

Correct

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

NO! I would have liked to see us crash out on the 30th June 2016 which would have most likely seen us back in by year end once we realised what we had actually voted for. In terms of preparation there is very little to differentiate between out on WTO terms on 30th June 2016 and 29th March 2019 except for the irrecoverable damage that has been done in the meantime.

If the Leavers are all cock sure it was the correct outcome then and remains the correct outcome now then what do they fear so much over a second vote that clearly spells out the details?

All "damage" can be repaired.  As for a second vote, what they propose is NOT what we voted for in the first place!  Should it happen, (and for democracies sake, I hope it does not) then it should be  exactly the same as before.....Remain or LEAVE

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

The "fear" of another vote means there will be another every two years, because it will just keep going.

As for crashing out, that would have been great but we had to give notice, so we did.

I really do hope its no deal come March, we can say stick it and see what happens, i don't see the shops not selling food and can't see the lights going out. But they might in Europe when the cracks they've been trying to cover split wide open.

Correct! The EU superstate is in serious decline.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

OMG 😲 A Brexit betrayal !

 

OMG 😲 So you didnt know what you were voting for ?

 

OMG 😲 You have friends who are xenophobes and racists ?

 

OMG 😲 So youve tried to 'get into' your good racist friends minds , and been accused of being patronising ,and possibly insinuating they are not clever enough to know what they were voting for, obviously triggering their xenophobic neanderthal 'defence' mechanisms ?
I cant think why that would be 

Brilliant!

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

I think we are getting to the crux of it all now, and let's not forget this is an evolving landscape.

Cameron called the referendum as a political stunt, he said whatever he thought needed to be said and didn't care or think about the leave implications too much as never dreamt the outcome would be leave. The minute he resigned all his promises evaporated. He lied, legal instruments should exist to bring him to account over this in the same way Blair should have been too.

Farage stepped down, apparently considering the job done. Err D'oh!

Johnson steps away because he's bright enough to know the whole thing will wreck his career a future PM aspirations.

A General election is called where both "major" parties pledge to deliver an unspecified Brexit - at this point it would have been  political suicide not to.

Parliament vote to trigger article 50 - same as above but clearly some are wobbling at this stage.

It now appears that neither major party were ever going to deliver a no-deal Brexit, as far as they are concerned it was on the table as a negotiating tool.

So those that voted Leave on the basis of WTO terms appear to have been sold a pup as the only people who might have delivered that were UKIP (which imploded) and ERG (too radical for mainstream conservatives).

For all the wrongs of parliament and MPs, we the people under a representative democracy basis voted them in to represent us on the basis that they know what they are doing and will ultimately act in the best interests of the nation as a whole and their constituents in particular. The party politics are more or less played out on this so it appears that the MPs are now acting in what they believe is the best interests of the nation and their constituents. What they are doing aligns with my preferred outcome on Brexit but apparently not the majority of the contributors to this thread. None of us know what the current voice of the masses is.

I accept and understand the viewpoint of this being undemocratic but believe it's a little bit more complicated than that - again back to a grey area.

They were voted in to carry out their Manifesto to deliver Brexit, and Brexit meant LEAVE! As for best interests, you might check out some of the reasons as to why they are betraying the majority....look at their personals ties to the EU, look where their holiday homes are, look at the source of funding for thei anti-Brexit campaigns (George Soros).  Acting in the best interests of the nation...? Cobblers!

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Too many OMGs and not a very grown up response. Why not cut to the chase and enlighten us all on the personal benefits you forsee in Brexit!?

There you go again with "personal benefits"....perhaps we are not for sale?

55 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

CORRECT!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

No deal come on down!

[pinfireman]

41 minutes ago, Mice! said:

You must have missed my earlier comments on why i wanted to leave.

but as for your final paragraph above, I'm an engineer with kids, if we kept being forced by a foreign power to allow unlimited migration where are our kids going to work or live? 

If we are getting skilled motivated people who have gone through a process then great, such as Australia do, but just allowing in everybody and expecting infrastructure NHS housing to cope, that's just Corbyns dream of more votes.

Correct! 90% of those arriving here were either merely semi-skilled, or unskilled! We had 2 million unemployed in 1997.....We STILL have 2 million unemployed today! Why did the Blair / Brown government not train these  people to fill jobs, instead of opening the flood gates to the world?

[12gauge82]

I find it incredible that people want the largest democratic vote in this country's history overturned, I can understand people having other views, even though I believe them misplaced, but to not bring the UK out of EU membership and all the rules that being an EU member entailed will be the largest travisty of freedom this country has ever known, there would simply be no excuse for it. 

[pinfireman]

25 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im a leaver, so Im thick, and cant talk grown up 

As far as the 'benefits' of Brexit , maybe one day when we actually leave we'll find out for certain.

What people of your persuasion fail to recognise, is that most of the people who voted to leave didnt actually envisage the benefits as such, but more what the EU was turning into, and thus dragging us unwillingly with it.
You say youre  not pro EU , but you voted to stay anyway, why ? You dont like change ? Youre of a nervous disposition ,and fear the unknown ?

Of all those people who voted to leave, some I expect were scared too, but they weighed up the lesser of 2 evils, one being a step into the unknown, the other ,ending up a 'state' in a bEUrocratic superstate that considers national pride as a thing of the past, something to be ashamed of, whilst promoting ITSELF as something you need to be loyal to.
Forget your national identity, but take on the European identity, an oxymoron.
Or the mounting cost and red tape , with its isolationalist policies.
The fact that come 2020, the Lisbon treaty reaches its 'maturity' where sweeping new laws and changes will need to be bought in, EU army, EU tax settings, forced Euro and more quotas.

And not once have I mentioned immigration !

What you need to do is take the blinkers off, and do some research, and see just how bad EU membership has become, and its not because its a bad idea.
Ive stated many times on these threads , the basic premise of a trading organisation in Europe is a good thing, but the EU is a poor manager, and why we need this body to manage our laws, finances and politics for us , I cant imagine, do we not have enough politicians already? Between £6 - 7 billion in admin for the EU alone, then they start talking about poverty as they are quaffing champagne and tucking into lobster that we pay for.

I think Im wasting my time, because your mind is set.
But dont break down leavers reasons into 'bloody foreigners' and 'the bus' because that not only shows ignorance, but also an unwillingness to engage with differing views, and a lack of respect.
Be better than that.
 

Excellent !

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I find it incredible that people want the largest democratic vote in this country's history overturned, I can understand people having other views, even though I believe them misplaced, but to not bring the UK out of EU membership and all the rules that being an EU member entailed will be the largest travisty of freedom this country has ever known, there would simply be no excuse for it. 

I,m with you on this.................

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Interesting to see Doc Martin are doubling production in Northampton!

They don't seem to be scared.

[Pushandpull]

Suppose that this muddle we are in results in a general election.

Suppose that the Labours win a majority and forms the government.

Suppose that this government bans the private ownership of shotguns and rifles.

Would we all respect the democratic decision ?  I rather think there would be much appealing to Alexis de Tocqueville, John Stuart Mill etc. and the so-called "tyranny of the majority", while the next election would be eagerly anticipated.

Please don't be rude to me as I am not taking sides but looking for a different perspective on a rather stale argument.

[12gauge82]

12 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

Suppose that this muddle we are in results in a general election.

Suppose that the Labours win a majority and forms the government.

Suppose that this government bans the private ownership of shotguns and rifles.

Would we all respect the democratic decision ?  I rather think there would be much appealing to Alexis de Tocqueville, John Stuart Mill etc. and the so-called "tyranny of the majority", while the next election would be eagerly anticipated.

Please don't be rude to me as I am not taking sides but looking for a different perspective on a rather stale argument.

Yes I think we would, we would be annoyed about it, we would vote for party's that represent our views, but I don't think you'd see anyone calling for the result of the election to be ignored or for another general election to be held because we didn't like the result of the first one! 

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I agree there are undemocratic aspects of the EU but would you agree it's less undemocratic than it used to be, at least in terms of how the commission operate?

Inherent corruptness is a broad brush so we'd need to discuss specifics?

I understand your position on the referendum but as things stand it looks like we could end up in remain or perpetual no mans land without any further say. Given the choice I would vote out on WTO terms in preference to the current deal proposed by government but I don't think that choice will be made available to us.

My main fears on leaving are manufacturing, the broader engineering sector and future opportunities that will be afforded to my kids as a result of Brexit. Happy to discuss these in more detail...

I have two kids also, one 22 the other 19; both at university. I'm not afraid and neither are they. I recall the day after the vote, where a local girl who was 18 at the time ranted on FB about the selfishness of the older generations ( and my generation ) for effectively wiping out the futures of her generation. She fell quiet after I pointed out that her generation had had the opportunity to vote, and blew it, and that if she really wanted to learn of a generation which had their futures wiped out by an elder generation she could look outward to the centenary of that said generation, rather than looking inward to her own. She was at drama school in London at the time, and less than a fortnight after her rant, her proud parents announced she had been selected for a four month dance and theatre tour of Bulgaria. She went from strength to strength and is now in the early stages of starting her own theatre company.....poor mite.

My daughter asked me some time ago what I thought would happen if and when we leave, and I told her people will just get on with their lives, as they do so now. I suspect this will be highly likely. 

I'm not afraid of leaving, but am afraid of remaining. My only hope now is that the EU comes crashing down like an old condemned building. 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

I find it incredible that people want the largest democratic vote in this country's history overturned, I can understand people having other views, even though I believe them misplaced, but to not bring the UK out of EU membership and all the rules that being an EU member entailed will be the largest travisty of freedom this country has ever known, there would simply be no excuse for it. 

I don't believe or see a majority in parliament for overturning the election result. Whilst many on here believe the vote meant out of everything EU (short of towing our island further offshore) the reality is that the vote was not clear on the options for a future relationship with the EU. Parliament is merely reflecting the vastly different options and perspectives as to what the leave vote meant. We have an advanced trading relationship with the EU and it's surely right that we try to protect some of this, this whilst defining the process of leaving. The question is, will parliament be capable of doing this? 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by oowee

[Scully]

32 minutes ago, Pushandpull said:

Suppose that this muddle we are in results in a general election.

Suppose that the Labours win a majority and forms the government.

Suppose that this government bans the private ownership of shotguns and rifles.

Would we all respect the democratic decision ?  I rather think there would be much appealing to Alexis de Tocqueville, John Stuart Mill etc. and the so-called "tyranny of the majority", while the next election would be eagerly anticipated.

Please don't be rude to me as I am not taking sides but looking for a different perspective on a rather stale argument.

We would respect the democratic decision because we have already done so. No one would lobby to have the election result overturned, but we would oppose that decision by tactical voting at the next election . That is how democracy works. 

The referendum isn't an election, nor is it best out of three. Those who gave us the referendum stipulated as far as I recall, that this was a once in a generation vote. It would appear not. 

[oowee]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

We would respect the democratic decision because we have already done so. No one would lobby to have the election result overturned, but we would oppose that decision by tactical voting at the next election . That is how democracy works. 

The referendum isn't an election, nor is it best out of three. Those who gave us the referendum stipulated as far as I recall, that this was a once in a generation vote. It would appear not. 

No one has the right to tell the electorate that they cannot vote on a topic. Anyone who says that a vote is a once in a generation vote are lying. It may however be a once in a generation opportunity.