Rewulf Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: but even the economist that is pals with JRM said that Brexit will kill UK manufacturing Do you have a link to that statement , never heards that before, but.... ...What UK manufacturing ? The EU killed it off years ago ! Brexit is a way to rebuild our manufacturing base, and stop being a nation based on services, with no one actually producing anything. 4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I do wonder how many ardent Brexiteers were outraged by the treatment of the miners and steel workers. I would imagine many of them were those miners and steelworkers. 4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: As I keep saying a right proper mess that is all very British unfortunately. All very typically European I would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRDS Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: I did ask a question but never mind. You wrote "The ballot paper didn't include any "specifics" it was a simple question, remain or leave..... 17.4 million were in the majority and voted leave! No ifs, buts or maybes...."leave means leave"." So, no specifics but you're arguing that despite being non-specific all 17.4M votes wanted the same unspecific thing. No specifics but then you argue no ifs, buts maybes so unspecific with no caveats, 17.4M united in unspecific bliss. And then "leave means leave" - I think that phrase is now being morphed to something like "leave with no deal but if that can't happen "leave" in name through the TM deal as that's a better face saving alternative to no Brexit at all" - this is now the slant that JRM seems to be taking. The 17.4M united argument then falls apart as Leavers here, and elsewhere, have said they'd prefer to remain than accept TMs deal. This is why you are wrong in your initial assertions... The specifics were in the GOVERNMENT LEAFLET that every household got prior to the vote, add that to the months of TV debates and anyone with any interest knew exactly what they were voting for. No CU. No SM. No FOM. No ECJ. Those were the 4 basic principles to extract us as you very well know like the rest of us. Edited March 26, 2019 by JRDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 18 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Do you have a link to that statement , never heards that before, but.... ...What UK manufacturing ? The EU killed it off years ago ! Brexit is a way to rebuild our manufacturing base, and stop being a nation based on services, with no one actually producing anything. I would imagine many of them were those miners and steelworkers. All very typically European I would say. I'll try and dig it out, I think the pro-Brexit economist was Patrick Minford, it resonated with me as my main background is Automotive PD. The premise was basically kill of UK car manufacturing, leave the EU and cars will be cheaper so everybody wins. But then that drives more cars which drives more congestion (which costs the UK economy ~£20B per year already) and that impacts air quality (not just tail pipe emissions but brake dust etc.) - interesting stat there given our net contribution to the EU is circa £12B. It's also memorable in citing Boris Johnson claiming to know more about the auto industry than Ralf Speth. You need to help me with how Brexit will help rebuild our manufacturing base, please? Ha, I nearly typed European instead of British myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, JRDS said: The specifics were in the GOVERNMENT LEAFLET that every household got prior to the vote, add that to the months of TV debates and anyone with any interest knew exactly what they were voting for. No CU. No SM. No FOM. No ECJ. Those were the 4 basic principles to extract us as you very well know like the rest of us. So one of you is saying no specifics and another claiming specifics, are you both right? I read all sorts of nonsense prior to the vote and believed very little of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 13 minutes ago, JRDS said: The specifics were in the GOVERNMENT LEAFLET that every household got prior to the vote, add that to the months of TV debates and anyone with any interest knew exactly what they were voting for. No CU. No SM. No FOM. No ECJ. Those were the 4 basic principles to extract us as you very well know like the rest of us. I agree, but the sad thing is that the Remainers in Parliament with the connivance of Corbyn - will say YES to all of the four above - and still 'claim' we are leaving. The May 'deal' ditches CU, SM - and most of FoM ...... and ECJ but that I think only fully after 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, ditchman said: as i said before the MP's are playing very dangerous games.................if by default or dare i say it ..design we end up staying in the EU in some various form or totally getting sucked up by the EU..............there will be a few moans on the streets.............then the people will ...in order to get back at the traitorus MP's will vote them out and vote in a far right alternative..............these groups are waiting in the wings just rubbing their hands and waiting................ And this will be the worst outcome of all. If anyone is delusional enough to think it won't happen, I say look to the rest of the EU contributors. In almost all, there has been a rise of the far right parties, that's without their MPs overtuning a referendum result. Just through their hatred of the corrupt EU. Edited March 26, 2019 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 @Rewulf this is the article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/28/brexit-to-destroy-u-k-car-manufacturing-lead-to-cheaper-imported-cars-increase-traffic-congestion/#59573c995c4b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: I did ask a question but never mind. You wrote "The ballot paper didn't include any "specifics" it was a simple question, remain or leave..... 17.4 million were in the majority and voted leave! No ifs, buts or maybes...."leave means leave"." So, no specifics but you're arguing that despite being non-specific all 17.4M votes wanted the same unspecific thing. No specifics but then you argue no ifs, buts maybes so unspecific with no caveats, 17.4M united in unspecific bliss. And then "leave means leave" - I think that phrase is now being morphed to something like "leave with no deal but if that can't happen "leave" in name through the TM deal as that's a better face saving alternative to no Brexit at all" - this is now the slant that JRM seems to be taking. The 17.4M united argument then falls apart as Leavers here, and elsewhere, have said they'd prefer to remain than accept TMs deal. This is why you are wrong in your initial assertions... No! If you say you asked a question of me, it would be rude for me to not respond! As I can't recall it! Would kindly repeat your question and I will endeavour to give a response! Perhaps I should have written the only specifics on the ballot paper were the questions leave or remain....but then again you knew that! You just chose to ignore it to bolster your assertion that I'm wrong! Lol! As far as I recall there were no clauses or caveats, ifs, buts and maybes on the ballot paper just leave or remain, all 17.4 million (the majority) voted to leave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 The question was about how long Farage would have taken to cool off in the event of the referendum outcome being remain. I did not ask the question of you specifically but you replied quoting my post which contained the question. I subsequently answered the question as none of the Leavers present on the topic at the time seemed to know. I didn't ignore, I responded specifically to what you wrote. Very much tongue in cheek but it looks to me like you made a statement, didn't like my response, so had another go at re-framing the statement. I'm sure you get what I'm alluding to here 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: @Rewulf this is the article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/28/brexit-to-destroy-u-k-car-manufacturing-lead-to-cheaper-imported-cars-increase-traffic-congestion/#59573c995c4b It's not just cars read across to other industries. Machine gears and control systems. Much of it Japanese only here because of our EU position and labour laws. Project fear project fear, I can hear the parrots in the background. Pretty much every industry and trade body from farming to automotive (with the exception of fishing) is saying the same thing for their sectors. The rich will get richer as the poor get poorer. Edited March 26, 2019 by oowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 41 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I'll try and dig it out, I think the pro-Brexit economist was Patrick Minford, it resonated with me as my main background is Automotive PD. The premise was basically kill of UK car manufacturing, leave the EU and cars will be cheaper so everybody wins. Minford sometimes talks sense, sometimes not so much , and JRM quoting him doesnt really make them 'pals' 😄 I dont actually see where it would make cars cheaper ?, If we continue buying what we are buying now , this is certainly not going to happen. My theory was to revive a home grown British car industry, producing hi tech affordable hybrids. 45 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: But then that drives more cars which drives more congestion (which costs the UK economy ~£20B per year already) and that impacts air quality (not just tail pipe emissions but brake dust etc.) - interesting stat there given our net contribution to the EU is circa £12B. This sort of infers that if we DONT leave , then emissions will continue at high levels anyway, like I say, I dont think Brexit will make more people want to drive anyway, but emissions certainly arent going down if we stay, despite legislation , the market is wide open for a cheap electric vehicle, why not put HS 2 money into development ? 48 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: It's also memorable in citing Boris Johnson claiming to know more about the auto industry than Ralf Speth. BJ is a buffoon, Ive no idea why hes so popular. 49 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: You need to help me with how Brexit will help rebuild our manufacturing base, please? Why not produce things for this country, IN this country ? Why not eat food , grown and reared , IN this country ? Why have we become so reliant on European products ? Because EU HAVE TO ! It helps the 'developing' countries . 1 minute ago, oowee said: Pretty much every industry and trade body from farming to automotive (with the exception of fishing) is saying the same thing for their sectors. The rich will get richer as the poor get poorer. But staying in the bloc means that doesnt happen right ? 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 Just now, oowee said: It's not just cars read across to other industries. Machine gears and control systems. Much of it Japanese only hear because of our EU position and labour laws. Project fear project fear, I can hear the parrots in the background. Pretty much every industry and trade body from farming to automotive (with the exception of fishing) is saying the same thing for their sectors. The rich will get richer as the poor get poorer. Agreed, we're having all sorts of issues with a large aero engine manufacturer and a company that manufacture buses that fly as a result of all this. I wonder how many ex miners and steel workers realise that every leave vote was a stab in the back for their UK manufacturing brethren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: Agreed, we're having all sorts of issues with a large aero engine manufacturer and a company that manufacture buses that fly as a result of all this. I wonder how many ex miners and steel workers realise that every leave vote was a stab in the back for their UK manufacturing brethren. There is a large Japanese precision engineering company, one that I worked on to bring to the UK maybe 20 years ago. They have already agreed with government to finish a recent R&D package and I am expecting them to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 Just now, Rewulf said: I dont actually see where it would make cars cheaper ?, If we continue buying what we are buying now , this is certainly not going to happen. I think this relates to zero tarrif on all imports including cars. My theory was to revive a home grown British car industry, producing hi tech affordable hybrids. The government have thrown a shed load of cash into various sector deals and similar inline with their industrial strategy, hybrids are just a stop gap really it's full EV where the smart money needs to be invested. We need to implement a strategy to generate all the electricity for this too which is bordering on a national crisis at the moment. This sort of infers that if we DONT leave , then emissions will continue at high levels anyway, like I say, I dont think Brexit will make more people want to drive anyway, but emissions certainly arent going down if we stay, despite legislation , the market is wide open for a cheap electric vehicle, why not put HS 2 money into development ? Yes but suggests if we do they'll get worse - I agree with you on HS2, the issue with EV currently as I'm sure you are aware is in range, we're not leading the battery technology field. Well actually we are good, world-class even, at the R&D but we are beyond **** at the commercialisation and I don't think we can blame that on the EU. BJ is a buffoon, Ive no idea why hes so popular. Agreed, great bloke to have a beer with or get to do an after dinner speech, but run the country - don't make me larf... Why not produce things for this country, IN this country ? Why not eat food , grown and reared , IN this country ? Why have we become so reliant on European products ? Because EU HAVE TO ! It helps the 'developing' countries . I don't know much about food and it's relation to the EU but I think most of the stuff I buy is labelled from countries outside the EU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 The Prime Minister, and specifically the Chancellor decreed that if we voted to leave the country would fall apart within hours and be a disaster in days. The result was simple, they both had to find alternative employment. **** the scare mongering, this country is GREAT and we will not only survive but come out stronger! Stuff the remainers, you lost, now get on with making the exit an opportunity to excel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 9 minutes ago, oowee said: There is a large Japanese precision engineering company, one that I worked on to bring to the UK maybe 20 years ago. They have already agreed with government to finish a recent R&D package and I am expecting them to go. As opposed to - They were definitely stopping 'if it wasnt for Brexit' ? Its like when Honda pulled out of Rover , before BMW walked in there and tried to take the IP rights of Hondas engine R+D https://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/news/archive/1994-02/honda-breaks-ties-with-rover/ In 1994 , but can we blame that on Brexit too ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 Just now, Dekers said: Stuff the remainers, you lost, now get on with making the exit an opportunity to excel! Stuff the people who hold the key to us excelling, we're losers, that's a great strategy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Rewulf said: As opposed to - They were definitely stopping 'if it wasnt for Brexit' ? Its like when Honda pulled out of Rover , before BMW walked in there and tried to take the IP rights of Hondas engine R+D https://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/news/archive/1994-02/honda-breaks-ties-with-rover/ In 1994 , but can we blame that on Brexit too ? Apparently some can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 Just now, Rewulf said: As opposed to - They were definitely stopping 'if it wasnt for Brexit' ? Its like when Honda pulled out of Rover , before BMW walked in there and tried to take the IP rights of Hondas engine R+D https://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/news/archive/1994-02/honda-breaks-ties-with-rover/ In 1994 , but can we blame that on Brexit too ? Nobody should be claiming it's all down to Brexit, that would be dishonest and misleading but I've witnessed it personally at a very high level to be used as an excuse to further put the boot in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: Stuff the people who hold the key to us excelling, we're losers, that's a great strategy! You have no strategy, except to complain you lost, get over it, spend your energy on making it work rather than winging eternally! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dekers said: You have no strategy, except to complain you lost, get over it, spend your energy on making it work rather than winging eternally! Making what work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: Nobody should be claiming it's all down to Brexit, that would be dishonest and misleading but I've witnessed it personally at a very high level to be used as an excuse to further put the boot in. Plenty of people still believe everything they see and hear on the 10 oclock news, if someone says its Brexits fault, then it is . Excuses are what its all about. The blame game. 8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I don't know much about food and it's relation to the EU but I think most of the stuff I buy is labelled from countries outside the EU You posh then 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 Just now, Dekers said: You have no strategy, except to complain you lost, get over it, spend your energy on making it work rather than winging eternally! Ironically it appears the Leavers who are increasingly bemoaning / complaining which is odd since officially they "won". We stand no chance of "making it work" whilst a proportion of ardent Brexiteers cling on to the false hope of no deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: Ironically it appears the Leavers who are increasingly bemoaning / complaining which is odd since officially they "won". We stand no chance of "making it work" whilst a proportion of ardent Brexiteers cling on to the false hope of no deal. And then saw it all drop away as Remoaners were sent in to do the "bargaining" Edited March 26, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE A bit of colour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted March 26, 2019 Report Share Posted March 26, 2019 Just now, Rewulf said: Plenty of people still believe everything they see and hear on the 10 oclock news, if someone says its Brexits fault, then it is . Excuses are what its all about. The blame game. You posh then 😂 I think a degree of gullibility played it's part in all this 🙂 Dripping in diamonds me... Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said: And then saw it all drop away as Remoaners were sent in to do the "bargaining" Out of curiosity, what's the leave version of a Remoaner? Don't tell me, a Loner, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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