Brexit - merged threads

[Mice!]

11 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Its looking like another referendum to me,  her own party will push TM out, corbyn will demand a GE on the back of another vote, the cons will instigate a second referendum to stay in power.. .........possibly !

TM has already said she'll leave which weakens her, how can the PM say I'll leave if i get what I want?

 

Someone said last night a GE shouldn't be called over leaving the EU as its just one thing, a GE should be about more ie housing NHS education etc..

[Dave-G]

Just been watching this: Fluff up your cushions!

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D1QcKWcNfNfI%26fbclid%3DIwAR0yPXcmnP-pYAKwrNy95zGx9BbBeZNDOsOMuIx1wn_iGI6XfxCVw7DoegQ&h=AT1EHflNYUQljxX37WESRVsK88MHofSvqDYR4_R50UFOJXqCqr6r5Cia0kDAAqzC5cS0o6C3ycUWyISKyHs85mcuG9RYOuUFivoLkjWyy7RoiCNv5Hp7w1GGz5nJAMN2BBDzMWAYT1CIO-iyjCXiFnG6q3eA1mMyLiqLQro_1TJMUsa55Pajv5t3GdEja0KnK-vacZTJv52MwQ4Q7l605VLMbO2EAeo2ILDFYIxOUjfqt0vRn8P2Q4JHcpdo84xVmab5X41JxxLHVW-NDDqRWpqsgagXmlJ9pYDHJU7nUoirzlrLD-XJMBvaDvUo6-YuBzlLL3o6-cd8rC5uAAhtUK7y0PeGuXrc4C0EgXpy0JCsBIePZza-Kg8Rh3ayAIcMDg63u5MRE6kwIsJI_MOau3i_nbzPIMgfQRiuMRfyLwoy1PNQ3jP3r4EkTnOTN-RaomSh7izgHZH7CB4pxPU0cj6q_gmDLBvxoeqvcqkkYrmrmiUd1QETetRrNEOt1k3WZaMxUruRTwYqteuWa0kFucL32q_9CcSLNPViKBP9SOdl4qmD8BnkxER4TmGNN2smund8rBGngDF8lopmQYvzmto1HXav01z733XVdAFj2jc0Ss_gXHyJ_ckKFstEy3e9xs8jPWLjV9KKFG1InaFpkDYh8So2uYMzNkOhH4txR8Z1gFYWq8_U4eSkJVttcg

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

The assertion wasnt rubbished at all, and the only people saying older votes dont count is remainers, you even tried to justify this viewpoint yourself !

No I did not, where exactly?

[islandgun]

29 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

That puts it over very well

But what if they do initiate another referendum;

1. What would the wording be so as to be FAIR?

2. What happens if the same result came out? No change no improvement in carrying out the will of the majority.

3. So many people will feel cheated as democracy will indeed be dead.

we could have the best of three .........or five.........................seven ?

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Going back top the original point, if the notion that older people tended more towards leave than the young is rejected off hand then there is nothing to discuss but it was pretty evident from the coverage on Friday that the majority of people shown protesting for Brexit were at or around retirement age. If that is indicative then I think the point that people who have secured their futures through pensions have less to lose than those just starting out or mid career.

 

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

No the only real point is that the data suggests that older people tended to vote leave, the coverage I saw showed a higher percentage of older protesters so it supports the data.

It says nothing about you individually and like you said by default you'd be at work on a Friday afternoon (and presumably a fair way from London).

 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

 

 

So where did I even imply that older voters don't count!?

[Rewulf]

' If that is indicative then I think the point that people who have secured their futures through pensions have less to lose than those just starting out or mid career.#'

'If this is the case then does it not lead to the question of quite how much the older generation are being fair handed in suggesting we'll all take a hit in the short term but will be better in the long run if their financial futures are already secured (by this I mean drawing on a pension)?'

 

Did you not insinuate it by saying this  ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Oh so now the "Older Generation" are SELFISH for planning ahead!

 

[Raja Clavata]

Honestly I did not, I meant what I said - questioning whether or not it was fair handed. This was based on a discussion with my mother-in-law who was saying that she doesn't understand why it's so damned important to certain people of her age group, and within her circle of friends, to leave. She is 72 years old and pretty comfortable financially and I assume more or less "normal" within her circle of friends.

If I was trying to make a point about the value of votes I would have been much more direct in doing so.

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Oh so now the "Older Generation" are SELFISH for planning ahead!

Eh, what? Where does this stuff come from...?

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Honestly I did not, I meant what I said - questioning whether or not it was fair handed. This was based on a discussion with my mother-in-law who was saying that she doesn't understand why it's so damned important to certain people of her age group, and within her circle of friends, to leave. She is 72 years old and pretty comfortable financially and I assume more or less "normal" within her circle of friends.

If I was trying to make a point about the value of votes I would have been much more direct in doing so.

I never actually said you doubt the value of votes, I said you tried to justify the viewpoint, and you still are.

It doesnt matter if your mother is 72 or 102, her vote counts just as much, if she doesnt want to participate in voting because she is 'comfortable' thats her decision surely.
So did she not bother, or did she vote remain ?

But cant you see the fallacy in the remainer argument that 'only old people voted to leave' ?
For one its completely false , and second , so what ?
They are entitled to live out their lives as they see fit are they not ?

You are lapping up the argument , because it suits your viewpoint, you even say the people in London on Friday and Saturday were 'of retirement age' when they clearly were from every age group , from teenagers to pensioners.

[oowee]

40 minutes ago, islandgun said:

we could have the best of three .........or five.........................seven ?

We can and will no doubt have the best of more. If we are out we may vote to rejoin. If we are in or half in we might vote for more out. Democracy is a process not an event. Fingers crossed for another election to sort this thing out. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

We can and will no doubt have the best of more. If we are out we may vote to rejoin. If we are in or half in we might vote for more out. Democracy is a process not an event. Fingers crossed for another election to sort this thing out. 

And who do you hope will be victorious if we did have a GE soon?

[Rewulf]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

And who do you hope will be victorious if we did have a GE soon?

Whoever votes to remain  probably .

There isnt time for an election, I wish there was , to see labour get spanked would be hilarious !

They have to pull something out the bag by next week, and if its soft Brexit , then we need a GE to make sure all of those that supported it get whats coming to them.

[Raja Clavata]

Hang on, who has said only old people voted to leave, certainly not me or anyone else on here from what I've seen?

I wholeheartedly agree that each and every vote counts the same (all men are equal - at least in the voting sense).

I think you're missing the point, I was trying to get to a point where if we established older people were more likely to vote leave then we could explore the reasons for this.

Whilst people are driving wedges, playing this us and them game then we are never going to reconcile the void between the two camps.

I said the people shown on tv here were by majority at the older end of the spectrum and this seemed to fit what the data in all the polls I have seen suggest.

My mother in law voted remain.

Just now, oowee said:

Democracy is a process not an event. 

Not according to some people it would seem.

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

And who do you hope will be victorious if we did have a GE soon?

Not a GE we want a new ref now. Something that sets the issue on the table properly and unambiguously. In or out and if you want out may or no deal. Simples. 

[Raja Clavata]

In other news, Parliament are now discussing the long overdue topic of Dominic Cummings found to be in contempt of Parliament. Apparently it's his democratic right to do what he did and they are discussing that that there should be some restrictions placed on what roles he should be able to undertake in the future or some other way of sanctioning him. 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

My mother in law voted remain.

I thought she wasnt bothered , comfortable ect ?

Youre ducking and diving now, you said there was factual evidence that the older generation voted more for leave than the young, oowee backed this up with FULLFACT 🙄

Yet it clearly states no such data exists, by simple logic , far more of the UK population are over 30 than under, and far far less are under 25, you know , those poor mites that have had their future 'stolen'

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I think you're missing the point, I was trying to get to a point where if we established older people were more likely to vote leave then we could explore the reasons for this.

What on earth are you trying to establish ?
The 'older' people voted to leave for the same reasons that the younger people wanted to leave, or are you saying something different like , Im old and racist , so I want out ?

[Scully]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

Norway, Iceland, Canada, Canada + or ++ no deal, Mays deal they are all version of out. There is no point being in denial there are different versions of out any one of which is out. That is ambiguous. Quitters trying to justify the intangible decision to quit. 

😀 Hilarious! Mostly options biased towards remain! 

No deal is the only deal which severs all ties with the EU, which is in the spirit of which the referendum was held, on which campaigning was based, and intended. Out is out, not a little bit out or a little bit in. OUT...completely. 

Why is it so hard to understand? 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Not a GE we want a new ref now. Something that sets the issue on the table properly and unambiguously. In or out and if you want out may or no deal. Simples. 

Definitely , lets make it Remain, No deal, Canada ++, Norway + and Mays deal, and whoever gets the most votes wins , that sounds fair 😆🤣

We. Already. Voted. On .This.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

Not a GE we want a new ref now. Something that sets the issue on the table properly and unambiguously. In or out and if you want out may or no deal. Simples. 

I wonder if this chap is available?

 

[JohnfromUK]

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

Fingers crossed for another election to sort this thing out.

A General Election would solve nothing;

Realistically there are only four possible outcomes, two likely, two less likely.

1. Tory minority (likely):  Situation largely as now - party split between mix of hard leave, soft leave and a few remain.  Potential partners - DUP, soft leave with backstop removed.  NO MAJORITY FOR ANY BREXIT SOLUTION
2. Labour minority (likely):  Similar situation - party split between mix of leave, 2nd referendum and a few remain.  Official line - very soft Bexit in name only (Starmers 6 tests). Potential partners - Lib Dem, SNP, Green, Independant Group, all solid leavers.  NO MAJORITY FOR ANY BREXIT SOLUTION.  Plus likely immediate troubles over currency, stock market and confidence.
3. Tory majority (unlikely): Situation largely as now - party split between mix of hard leave, soft leave and a few remain.  NO MAJORITY FOR ANY BREXIT SOLUTION
4. Labour majority (unlikely): Situation similar to now - party split between mix of hard leave, soft leave and a few remain.  Might get a majority for a very softish Brexit - but has sufficient members from leave constituencies to make this unlikely.  PROBABLY NO MAJORITY FOR ANY BREXIT SOLUTION.  Plus likely immediate troubles over currency, stock market and confidence.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

I thought she wasnt bothered , comfortable ect ?

Youre ducking and diving now, you said there was factual evidence that the older generation voted more for leave than the young, oowee backed this up with FULLFACT 🙄

Yet it clearly states no such data exists, by simple logic , far more of the UK population are over 30 than under, and far far less are under 25, you know , those poor mites that have had their future 'stolen'

What on earth are you trying to establish ?
The 'older' people voted to leave for the same reasons that the younger people wanted to leave, or are you saying something different like , Im old and racist , so I want out ?

I said she was financially comfortable, nothing about not being bothered.

The only thing I'm trying to duck is avoiding you totally misrepresenting what I have said for whatever reason it is that you may be doing so.

Now you're changing your story - earlier on you were espousing a list of reasons that the older people know better, now you're saying old and young voted leave for the same reasons.

I have no idea how old you are and sharing my views on whether or you are racist is not helpful or relevant here or are you actually saying that you are old and racist and that's the reason you voted out. See you don't like it and it's not nice is it...

[12gauge82]

Don't forget, the "it was the older generation that voted out" as an argument is ridiculous, most of these older people will have several children and being financially comfortable themselves, they will want nothing more than to see their children do well and grow up in a stable and prosperous country, they certainly aren't going to vote for anything they believe will harm their children's financial future. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I said she was financially comfortable, nothing about not being bothered.

The only thing I'm trying to duck is avoiding you totally misrepresenting what I have said for whatever reason it is that you may be doing so.

Now you're changing your story - earlier on you were espousing a list of reasons that the older people know better, now you're saying old and young voted leave for the same reasons.

I have no idea how old you are and sharing my views on whether or you are racist is not helpful or relevant here or are you actually saying that you are old and racist and that's the reason you voted out. See you don't like it and it's not nice is it...

They did, to get out of the EU, away from the unelected leaders with no consciences!

[oowee]

13 minutes ago, Scully said:

😀 Hilarious! Mostly options biased towards remain! 

No deal is the only deal which severs all ties with the EU, which is in the spirit of which the referendum was held, on which campaigning was based, and intended. Out is out, not a little bit out or a little bit in. OUT...completely. 

Why is it so hard to understand? 

I don't know why you are struggling to be honest. They are all leaving the EU. You may have miss understood the term 'leave the EU' and presumed it meant leave everything to do with Europe 😂 rather than the political entity.