Brexit - merged threads

[Newbie to this]

51 minutes ago, oowee said:

I can't agree. We voted that we wanted out.

Now the politicians need to set out what that means in practice. We can then decide if that's what we want. 

 

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

Cameron the then leader of our government and plenty of others pointed out exactly what voting leave meant.

Out of the single market.

Out of the customs union.

End of freedom of movement.

No longer under the jurisdiction of the EU courts.

No more large sums of money going to the EU.

Anything that doesn't deliver on these is not what was voted for.

He also stated that this was our decision, and it would be honoured, there will be no going back to renegotiate our membership and there will be no second vote.

 

[GingerCat]

If there is a second vote I'm pretty sure an actual nasty party, or rather a party with nasty elements will get in sufficiently to cause major problems. 1930's Germany is an example of an upset population voting or such a party to lead them on their struggle whilst blaming others for it and has more than a passing resemblance to brexit.   No one wants that. 

Any second vote bearing in mind the first one was democratically decisive and hasn't been implemented by the very parliamentary members voted for to do that one thing, will be undemocratic by definition. 

To the best of my knowledge all eu law was signed into our law as part of the process and workers rights etc are set in stone here as much as they are in the eu.  

what will the second vote say? It would have to say deal x (as yet to be decided) or wto rules  with no option of no brexit. If you split the vote 3 ways then remain will clearly have an unfair advantage and be decisively undemocratic for rather obvious reasons. 

We can't chose what parts of democracy we like if we are to remain a democratic society. If we aren't going to stay as one then look not so very far away for current examples of our future (north Korea, a fair proportion of the middle East, quite a few African nations, the socialist utopia of Venezuela). History is littered with others imposing their will undemocratically and none of it ended well for either the populace or the dictator (when we decide on which "rules" to implement or ignore at will it  will become a dictatorship pretty quickly of that we can be assured). 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Oooops looks like I was mislead by the leave proposition that said we would get an easy trade deal. Apparently it was in the interest of the German car makers. 

If the people who campaigned for leave, were actually in charge of leaving , you might have got that easy trade deal ?
But we got a remainer , and the decision passed on to a majority remain parliament, thus the mess of Brexit.

 

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Lets put this new alternative no deal on the table and see how many support that. 

I would say lets do that, but we dont have the people or the will in our elected government to do it, also I dont believe that Brussels see any reason to re negotiate now.
Our leverage is all but gone.

Lets see if parliament vote for a GE , bit difficult when they know their seats are far from safe eh ?

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

what will the second vote say? It would have to say deal x (as yet to be decided) or wto rules  with no option of no brexit. If you split the vote 3 ways then remain will clearly have an unfair advantage and be decisively undemocratic for rather obvious reasons. 

IF there is a second referendum (and there should NOT be) - there should be only two possibles;

• deal x (as yet to be decided)
• WTO rules

The remain option was voted out at the first referendum.

 

[GingerCat]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

IF there is a second referendum (and there should NOT be) - there should be only two possibles;

• deal x (as yet to be decided)
• WTO rules

The remain option was voted out at the first referendum.

 

I totally agree, others it seems don't. 

[pinfireman]

4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

It really is VERY simple; the plain underlying fact is that enough MP's stood at the last General Election for Labour and Tory on a platform of carrying out the Referendum result and leaving the EU.  There are enough MP's who stood on those manifestos promising leave to get a majority under ANY circumstances.  313 Tories, 246 Labour.  There should therefore be  559 votes for leave.

Which just goes to show that the vast majority of them are unprincipled liars! Anything to stay in power!

4 hours ago, oowee said:

Easy said but the question is under what terms. We certainly did not vote for a hard border. 

and we did not vote, only for the  rabble in Westminster to ignore the result!

[pinfireman]

4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

The MP's approved the referendum question selection (formulated by the Cameron government).  It was a clear question.  Did MP's not understand it when they approved it (by a large majority if I remember right)?  If they didn't why did they vote for it?

The result was not a massive majority - but it was a clear majority - for leave.

In the subsequent (ill advised) General Election - both main parties promised to carry out the referendum result and leave.  The MP's - in standing on a party ticket, using the party machine, party funds for their campaign etc, accepted party policy as defined in the manifesto.  They were elected on that manifesto - 559 of them for Labour and Conservative.

Are they now saying they didn't know what they were standing for?  The manifesto leaflets that came through my door were as I recall clear.  We were to follow the referendum result and leave the EU.  Were they standing for the party with no intention of carrying out it's manifesto commitments?

There are 559 MPs in Parliament who stood on a promise to leave - did they not know what that meant when they stood?  If so - they should resign.

THEY MUST sort this out ......... and LEAVE.  Why the hell are they now saying they need another referendum?  We don't pay them a large salary and generous expenses, pensions and holiday package for them to keep coming back and asking us to tell them how to do their jobs.

In fact they have been (all 559 of them) utterly hopeless.  559 people stood on a leave ticket out of 650 and they say they can't get a simple majority.  If that isn't useless and unfit for purpose I don't know what is!

Excellent post! 

[pinfireman]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

 

To confirm the deal on the table when / if they get one. Leave was a broad term. If leavers want to leave put a firm proposition on the table setting out the implications. If people want to vote for that fair enough. 

Leave was NOT a broad term, it,s quite a simple one, as defined in the Oxford Concise Dictionary.............if you are still in the Customs Union, you have not left, if you are still in the Single Market, you have not left, if you are still allowing free movement of labour, you have not left...same for European Courts etc etc.  Yet this is the kind of rubbish Labour are touting in the "Brexit" plan.  We voted to Leave.....if the EU wants a "deal" it should approach us with one. Instead, May and her advisors, and the quislings in Westminster humiliated this country by running to Brussels with a begging bowl!

4 hours ago, mick miller said:

Our rights for workers are already better than the EU's. What makes you think any government would abandon them? It would be political suicide for any party that suggested it.

Correct

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

8 years ago !

He has the right to change his mind 🤣

Only Corbyn and Labour can do that......no one else is allowed to change their minds!

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

So lets get a proposition and put it to the people. 

 

But we were told it would be easy. Where is the easy deal? 

 

So lets see what this leave deal is and put it to the people. Lets be sure thats what people want as the description of leave varied depending on who you asked.

and what would the alternative be  on the ballot paper? Remain? No way, we,ve been down that road, and voted Leave!

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

So if FTA is the way the government wants to go lets have the FTA arrangement on the table. 

The EU currently guarantees those workers rights. Take away the EU and you may be at the whim of the nasty party. 

Is that the Unions that the current Government is working hard to undermine? 

No, it,s the unions that currently have the whip hand, and fund the Marxist Labour Party, who will take this country to hell in a basket!

2 hours ago, oowee said:

The EU will set it's own rules. If we want a trade deal we will agree with them reciprocally. Ergo we will follow the EU rules. 

It swings both ways, they will want a trade deal with us! And they have to accept some of our rules! 

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

....... and that is where I begin to fall out with the EU.  I am a 'free market' person.  When take my car to the garage, I tell them what I want done and get a quote, not how many days they need to give their workers on holiday, where they can/can't buy their tools from, what accountancy programme they use, what type of coffee they drink etc, etc.

I get a quote and (usually) take the lowest quote.  The main BMW garage is always a fortune (and not very good), but ever so plush, lots of young ladies offering me coffee (from BMW logo cups and saucers) and biscuits, BIG screen videos of the latest BMW models.  No doubt they have to use BMW branded tools, parts, spares, materials.  My local independent is very helpful, far less plush, far cheaper and apart from safety critical items sources his parts from decent independant suppliers (like Bosch) rather than through BMW.  (For example a Bosch battery was half price through him than the official BMW battery that was probably Bosch anyway).

I want us (like the independent garages) to be able to choose our ways of doing things.

Great analogy!

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

I can't agree. We voted that we wanted out.

Now the politicians need to set out what that means in practice. We can then decide if that's what we want. 

The politicians you put so much trust in do not want us to leave, so how can we trust them  to set out what that means? It means to them that we stay in.....! We have already decided what we want. As Newbie says, it is undemocratic to force another referendum on us, with options that would effectively  give Remain a win! 

I once wonan election to be President of my local club...............we did not have a second election, to confirm the first one!

2 hours ago, oowee said:

Sounds good to me. I don't want to buy my t shirts from a country that uses child labour. Unfortunately I don't have the time to check where my t shirt is coming from. I expect my Government to do that work for me and look out for those less able. 

Oooops looks like I was mislead by the leave proposition that said we would get an easy trade deal. Apparently it was in the interest of the German car makers. 

Lets put this new alternative no deal on the table and see how many support that. 

I don't want to buy my t shirts from a country that uses child labour. Unfortunately I don't have the time to check where my t shirt is coming from. I expect my Government to do that work for me and look out for those less able.

As virtually ALL t shirts are made in poorer countries, I fear you may have to wear something else! And your government IS doing something.........................it,s giving away billions in Foreign Aid to these countries. You could do your bit by simply glancing at the label on the garment.

[Gordon R]

Quote

As virtually ALL t shirts are made in poorer countries, I fear you may have to wear something else! And your government IS doing something.........................it,s giving away billions in Foreign Aid to these countries. You could do your bit by simply glancing at the label on the garment.

Ouch. I'm glad I didn't make the original post (answered above).

[henry d]

2 hours ago, pinfireman said:

No, it,s the unions that currently have the whip hand, and fund the Marxist Labour Party, who will take this country to hell in a basket!

More testicles, you have the option to not fund the labour party, many don`t, including (when I was in a union) me.

[Raja Clavata]

4 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

I really don't need to.

Whatever way you want to dress it up, calling for a second vote on something that has already been decided, but hasn't been enacted. Is undemocratic.

And anyone doing it, is an anti-democrat!

It's not dressing up, we had a grown up discussion earlier about the issue of the implications of a confirmatory vote, I ceded that I too have issues / concerns over the implications of that by putting myself in the shoes of people who voted for Brexit and still hold that view. Instead of taking the opportunity to align on something you turn it around and start name calling. This completely uncompromising bullish approach of "I won, you lost so STFU" will be down-fall of Brexit. 

[tandytommo]

4 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

 

 

And where is darling Dave  now? you can't trust a Tory!!!!

[Rewulf]

15 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

a confirmatory vote

You mean a re run really dont you ?

This time with the deck stacked for remain, let's at least be honest about it.

[Walker570]

11 hours ago, mick miller said:

Esther McVey for me. I like the attitude and life experience outside of the 'bubble', plus she's a scouser, which for northern voters may appear more human than the usual Oxbridge and Eaton patrician accents.

Saw her interviewed last week and I agree. Seems to mean what she says and not live in lah lah land.

[Newbie to this]

43 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

It's not dressing up, we had a grown up discussion earlier about the issue of the implications of a confirmatory vote, I ceded that I too have issues / concerns over the implications of that by putting myself in the shoes of people who voted for Brexit and still hold that view. Instead of taking the opportunity to align on something you turn it around and start name calling. This completely uncompromising bullish approach of "I won, you lost so STFU" will be down-fall of Brexit. 

But that is democracy, especially in a binary choice. One side wins and the other loses.

Democracy isn't fair in respect that everyone gets what they want. The majority decide for all. Democracy is fair in the respect that everyone has a chance by voting. We've already done that.

What you are suggesting is neither fair or democracy.

I suggested a compromise of a confirmatory vote on how we leave the EU without Remain being an option, so the democracy of the first vote would be see through. You dismissed that of hand.

You agree that if there is another vote and remain won, then those of us that voted leave and still want to, would of had our democracy taken from us and you seem happy for this to happen.

You don't seem to care about the democracy of the first vote at all.

I don't know what other conclusions I can come to other than what you are suggesting is undemocratic.

I can't help that you don't like my analysis.

40 minutes ago, tandytommo said:

And where is darling Dave  now? you can't trust a politician!!!!

There I fixed it for you.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Raja Clavata]

34 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You mean a re run really dont you ?

This time with the deck stacked for remain, let's at least be honest about it.

Nope, it's like taking VR at work, nobody takes the plunge without knowing what the overall package is, at least nobody with...

[Raja Clavata]

28 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

But that is democracy, especially in a binary choice. One side wins and the other loses.

Democracy isn't fair in respect that everyone gets what they want. The majority decide for all. Democracy is fair in the respect that everyone has a chance by voting. We've already done that.

What you are suggesting is neither fair or democracy.

I suggested a compromise of a confirmatory vote on how we leave the EU without Remain being an option, so the democracy of the first vote would be see through. You dismissed that of hand.

You agree that if there is another vote and remain won, then those of us that voted leave and still want to, would of had our democracy taken from us and you seem happy for this to happen.

You don't seem to care about the democracy of the first vote at all.

I don't know what other conclusions I can come to other than what you are suggesting is undemocratic.

I can't help that you don't like my analysis.

I never said happy or intended to imply any such thing.

In the micro and macro scheme of things, life isn't fair, not my call but if it was I'd take ~33% of the population left outraged over risking flushing my kids futures down the drain (or risking them having to move from their motherland in order to prosper).

To be clear I'm using my kids as an example.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Raja Clavata

[Newbie to this]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I never said happy or intended to imply any such thing.

In the micro and macro scheme of things, life isn't fair, not my call but if it was I'd take ~33% of the population left outraged over risking flushing my kids futures down the drain (or risking them having to move from their motherland in order to prosper).

 

7 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

In tatters I would imagine, but what is your point, surely this is obvious?

Both these would suggest to me that you are indeed happy with it (happy as in completely OK with) (it's a figure of speech where I come from)

I would not be happy (OK) with killing democracy. No matter how small you claim the amount of people that would be outraged. 

I am a democrat.

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Nope, it's like taking VR at work, nobody takes the plunge without knowing what the overall package is, at least nobody with...

It's nothing like the same thing is it? 

Millions of people voted to leave not really knowing the outcome, but they still did it, reckless, desperate, stupid? 

Choice isn't always rational, but it's still choice, in a free society, we were given that choice with the government thinking we would be too scared to leave, they simply didn't understand the mood and wants of the people. So they've now removed the choice. 

I'll guarantee there won't be a second ref. or a 'confirmation vote' until they are absolutely positive remain will be the outcome. They won't make the same mistake twice. 

If you really want to compare it the VR analogy, imagine taking the package, leaving, then them telling you the deals off, but you can't come back without a big pay cut. 

[Raja Clavata]

I've already said I'm not happy.

I can live with the fact that you consider yourself a democrat and that in your view I am not.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

It's nothing like the same thing is it? 

Millions of people voted to leave not really knowing the outcome, but they still did it, reckless, desperate, stupid? 

Choice isn't always rational, but it's still choice, in a free society, we were given that choice with the government thinking we would be too scared to leave, they simply didn't understand the mood and wants of the people. So they've now removed the choice. 

I'll guarantee there won't be a second ref. or a 'confirmation vote' until they are absolutely positive remain will be the outcome. They won't make the same mistake twice. 

If you really want to compare it the VR analogy, imagine taking the package, leaving, then them telling you the deals off, but you can't come back without a big pay cut. 

I think my analogy works.

I think the desperation comes in when people see their <insert whatever you want to characterise it as> choice being thwarted. Some are so bought into it that they want to see it through come hell or high water, anyone and everything offering an alternative outcome is an enemy to democracy.

Fairness, democracy and all that, all very well and good but they need to be rationalised against reality.

You don't leave on VR without the package being delivered to your account - sorry, but your analogy doesn't work and highlights fundamental issues with Brexit. Not least good old Nige doing one as soon as he got the vote he wanted (and saw what a mess he had help create).