Brexit - merged threads

[panoma1]

She looked a little p***** off, so I guess she didn't get what she wanted?

[Vince Green]

Yet more goalpost moving, I didn't like Chequers but the reaction to it from Tusk  is tediously predictable,  butwhy should we care?

They sell us at least £70 billion more than we sell them. Some people say its £100 billion, so how is the single market doing us any favours? Its not at all

Their nationals are over here working cash in hand, claiming tax credits etc and sending the money back home, millions of them. How many of our nationals are working over there?

Their fishing fleets take between £6-8 billion worth of fish out of our waters without giving anything back at all, not even a thank you. That figure assumes they are sticking to their quotas and you would have to be mad to believe that.

We do actually pay them in cash the £350 million a week it said on the Brexit bus every week, that was not a lie. What do we get for that money? certainly not respect 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Vince Green

[Retsdon]

Just watched May's press conference. I don't think she's quite well.

[Gordon R]

She's probably sick of the Remain fools, who keep banging on about a second referendum. Political suicide for any party.

[Retsdon]

In public the EU has, until now,  been lukewarm polite whilst quietly mentioning 'substantive changes', but doubtless May and Raab would have been told in private that her Chequers plan needed the EU to forgo one of its core principals, so unless fundamentally altered it was always going to be a non-starter. So why didn't she listen to what the EU was saying and go back to her government for further instructions? Then, why did she go to Salzburg and basically threaten Varadkar at their breakfast meeting over the Irish border issue? What did she expect the EU response would be?

The response was that yesterday the EU collectively lost its patience with May and her government and their political games and put the bald, unvarnished truth out in the public domain. All along May has been like someone standing at a window threatening to jump, but trusting that friends or colleagues would either grab a leg or arrange a soft landing. And, in its own interest as much as anything else, that looked to be the EUs' intention. But the preternaturally stupid woman has overplayed her extremely weak hand and the EU has now thrown up its hands and is saying, OK jump.

So in March, on account of the Tory government's mind-boggling incompetence Britain is set to crash out of the EU without a parachute and the EU is going to allow it to happen.Who would have thought that grown-up people could make such a mess of things? But I suppose they were saying that in 1914 too...

[JohnfromUK]

35 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Who would have thought that grown-up people could make such a mess of things?

They may look grown up .........

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

In public the EU has, until now,  been lukewarm polite whilst quietly mentioning 'substantive changes', but doubtless May and Raab would have been told in private that her Chequers plan needed the EU to forgo one of its core principals, so unless fundamentally altered it was always going to be a non-starter. So why didn't she listen to what the EU was saying and go back to her government for further instructions? Then, why did she go to Salzburg and basically threaten Varadkar at their breakfast meeting over the Irish border issue? What did she expect the EU response would be?

The response was that yesterday the EU collectively lost its patience with May and her government and their political games and put the bald, unvarnished truth out in the public domain. All along May has been like someone standing at a window threatening to jump, but trusting that friends or colleagues would either grab a leg or arrange a soft landing. And, in its own interest as much as anything else, that looked to be the EUs' intention. But the preternaturally stupid woman has overplayed her extremely weak hand and the EU has now thrown up its hands and is saying, OK jump.

So in March, on account of the Tory government's mind-boggling incompetence Britain is set to crash out of the EU without a parachute and the EU is going to allow it to happen.Who would have thought that grown-up people could make such a mess of things? But I suppose they were saying that in 1914 too...

Can’t wait....as long as we’re out. I don’t want us out in name only I want us out and totally unfettered. 👍

[matone]

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

Can’t wait....as long as we’re out. I don’t want us out in name only I want us out and totally unfettered. 👍

Any right minded person has to agree,especially having seen the behaviour of the EU towards us since the vote!

They have behaved to type,ie bullies & dictators.

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

In public the EU has, until now,  been lukewarm polite whilst quietly mentioning 'substantive changes', but doubtless May and Raab would have been told in private that her Chequers plan needed the EU to forgo one of its core principals, so unless fundamentally altered it was always going to be a non-starter. So why didn't she listen to what the EU was saying and go back to her government for further instructions? Then, why did she go to Salzburg and basically threaten Varadkar at their breakfast meeting over the Irish border issue? What did she expect the EU response would be?

The response was that yesterday the EU collectively lost its patience with May and her government and their political games and put the bald, unvarnished truth out in the public domain. All along May has been like someone standing at a window threatening to jump, but trusting that friends or colleagues would either grab a leg or arrange a soft landing. And, in its own interest as much as anything else, that looked to be the EUs' intention. But the preternaturally stupid woman has overplayed her extremely weak hand and the EU has now thrown up its hands and is saying, OK jump.

So in March, on account of the Tory government's mind-boggling incompetence Britain is set to crash out of the EU without a parachute and the EU is going to allow it to happen.Who would have thought that grown-up people could make such a mess of things? But I suppose they were saying that in 1914 too...

I don't know what EU you've been watching, but the one I've seen has continued to act like the Mafia, even going as far as getting heads of state to tell us we should have another referendum, the same as they did to Ireland and France. I really do hope the EU reject Mays chequers deal, as it's an appalling deal for the UK and it means we can have the hard brexit that was voted for, but I wouldn't worry, there's no way the EU will let their golden goose leave their delapitated stable, Mays chequers deal will be approved by them at the last minute once the EU has checked they can't screw any more consesions out of us.

[Retsdon]

6 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I don't know what EU you've been watching, but the one I've seen has continued to act like the Mafia,

The one I've been watching is Barnier because he's the one charged with conducting the negotiations. And he's been consistent all along. The EU wants an amicable agreement but it can't sacrifice its founding principles to get one. There are options available to the UK that would be acceptable but the EU is not in a position to direct the UK in its choices. There. That's what Barnier (the voice of the EU) has been saying time after time for months. But hardly anyone in Britain is listening to what he actually says - they're listening to the media spin on him instead. Instead of listening to media reports, read one of Barnier's speeches in its entirety, or read the EU's Notice to Stakeholders documents. Nothing like the Mafia at all!

 

46 minutes ago, Scully said:

I don’t want us out in name only I want us out and totally unfettered.

Totally unfettered is a dream.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

but it can't sacrifice its founding principles to get one.

The four founding principles are for free movement of;

• Goods
• Capital
• Services
• Labour

I don't believe we are requesting to sacrifice ANY of these?

[12gauge82]

13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The four founding principles are for free movement of;

• Goods
• Capital
• Services
• Labour

I don't believe we are requesting to sacrifice ANY of these?

Beat me to it!

18 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

The one I've been watching is Barnier because he's the one charged with conducting the negotiations. And he's been consistent all along. The EU wants an amicable agreement but it can't sacrifice its founding principles to get one. There are options available to the UK that would be acceptable but the EU is not in a position to direct the UK in its choices. There. That's what Barnier (the voice of the EU) has been saying time after time for months. But hardly anyone in Britain is listening to what he actually says - they're listening to the media spin on him instead. Instead of listening to media reports, read one of Barnier's speeches in its entirety, or read the EU's Notice to Stakeholders documents. Nothing like the Mafia at all!

 

Totally unfettered is a dream.

Fingers crossed that EU continue to be unreasonable, a hard Brexit is better than the chequers deal all day long, my only fear is the EU will give us the deal as they will push it to the 11th hour to finalize, to see if they can squeeze anymore golden eggs from its prized goose.

[Gordon R]

Retsdon - you are blinded by your EU bias, despite protestations that you are a Brexiteer. It genuinely makes me laugh.

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Retsdon - you are blinded by your EU bias, despite protestations that you are a Brexiteer. It genuinely makes me laugh.

I must have missed this, he's claiming to be a Brexiteer? 😂

[Rewulf]

May -' We will basically keep all the shackles of EU membership, whilst not having a say, and we will give you a £39 bn sweetener, how does that sound ?'

Barnier - ' Non !'

[12gauge82]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

May -' We will basically keep all the shackles of EU membership, whilst not having a say, and we will give you a £39 bn sweetener, how does that sound ?'

Barnier - ' Non !'

And that's the most clear cut way I've seen the chequers "deal" described, it's a joke, BINO (Brexit In Name Only)

[Retsdon]

57 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The four founding principles are for free movement of;

• Goods
• Capital
• Services
• Labour

I don't believe we are requesting to sacrifice ANY of these?

I'm  not talking about the principles of free movement. I'm talking about the principle of a single market The single market works because you have intra-border uniformity of standards and a common external border operating under the same rules and conditions. What Chequers proposes is that the EU should breach its external border. How's that supposed to work? How can the EU have 'seamless' borders with a country that could go out and negotiate an independent trade deal with a 3rd country that differs markedly to the terms that third country might itself have with the EU? 

[Retsdon]

30 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I must have missed this, he's claiming to be a Brexiteer?

I would have voted for Brexit, yes. In retrospect though, I think I would have been wrong. Living with the disease sometimes proves to be a wiser decision than undergoing the surgery.

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I would have voted for Brexit, yes. In retrospect though, I think I would have been wrong. Living with the disease sometimes proves to be a wiser decision than undergoing the surgery.

Weve lived with the disease for 40 years now, and we arent getting any better.
Quality of life is eroding and the chances of the malady killing us are increasing.

Time for that surgery, while we are still strong enough for a good chance of survival.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I would have voted for Brexit, yes. In retrospect though, I think I would have been wrong. Living with the disease sometimes proves to be a wiser decision than undergoing the surgery.

 

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Weve lived with the disease for 40 years now, and we arent getting any better.
Quality of life is eroding and the chances of the malady killing us are increasing.

Time for that surgery, while we are still strong enough for a good chance of survival.

Check!

[12gauge82]

8 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I would have voted for Brexit, yes. In retrospect though, I think I would have been wrong. Living with the disease sometimes proves to be a wiser decision than undergoing the surgery.

Fair enough, each to their own, however, a democratic vote has been made and there can be no argument to actually remain in the EU without first actually leaving in the spirit the vote was made.

[Gordon R]

 

Quote

I would have voted for Brexit, yes. In retrospect though, I think I would have been wrong.

Just so I can be clear on your view - you would have voted to leave, but suddenly a lot of things occurred to you (which are now obvious - according to you) - have made you change your mind.

Priceless.

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, Gordon R said:

 

Just so I can be clear on your view - you would have voted to leave, but suddenly a lot of things occurred to you (which are now obvious - according to you) - have made you change your mind.

Priceless.

Why priceless? I think I"m better informed than I was two years ago. And some things become clearer as events develop over the passage of time. What's wrong with re-thinking one's position? 

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Fair enough, each to their own, however, a democratic vote has been made and there can be no argument to actually remain in the EU without first actually leaving in the spirit the vote was made.

Thats just given me a strange, brainstormy idea 😄

We leave, hard Brexit , no divorce deal, WTO rules.
But we have a transition period, 1 year , maybe 6 months if feasible, we pay our usual 'subs' but can negotiate other trade deals.
We use the transition period to negotiate rejoining the EU !
Put our demands down about what we want from the EU , and get THEM to put US a deal on the table.
When (if )the deal is down, we go back and ask the people, another referendum ,based on the new deal.
That way all remainers get a second chance, based on how much the EU actually wants US , rather than how much the EU just wants our money.
If all leavers are still sure, we get to stay out.
Yes the time frame is tight, but thats so they can get theyre bums into gear and sort it, no dancing, no carrots.

4 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Why priceless? I think I"m better informed than I was two years ago. And some things become clearer as events develop over the passage of time. What's wrong with re-thinking one's position? 

Better informed by what ?
Project fear 2 ?
Or the economic factors of Brexit not even happening yet ?

[Retsdon]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Better informed by what ?

Mostly by Richard North's blog http://www.eureferendum.com/profile.aspx?username=richard - not just the content of the blog itself, but also by the links and the comment section. These aren't propagandists, they're mostly people who know what they're talking about having a discussion. 

As for the economics of a hard Brexit, in this day and age the world's trade is increasingly governed by regional FTA agreements or globally by regional trade blocs and cartels that negotiate on behalf of their membership. Where is Britain, estranged from his regional neighbours, going to fit into all this? It's not 1978 anymore. 

As I said before, I hope my pessimism is misplaced - but I don't know - I find the whole thing a bit depressing. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.