Brexit - merged threads

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, oowee said:

I think they are out of the EU as well. 

 

Like most of the world, they were never in it.  You can (of course) do either well and badly without any 'assistance' from the EU.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Like most of the world, they were never in it.  You can (of course) do either well and badly without any 'assistance' from the EU.

A bit like a labour or Tory Government then. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

A bit like a labour or Tory Government then. 

I think you will find that no labour government has ever left the economy in a better state than when they took over.  Several (by no means all) Tory governments have and if May goes out to Corbyn she (and Cameron) will have as well.  Brown left them a disaster and no money, only ever increasing debts - just as as Callaghan/Wilson did to Thatcher - where Healey had to go 'cap in hand' to the IMF just to pay our bills.

[toxo]

23 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I can't either; however, I can (very clearly) see that the team and policies presented by Jeremy Corbyn as his form of government will be a bigger disaster for the UK - and the effects (principally debt) will last for a generation if he carries through his promises.  He will bring;

• Unfunded spending
• Uncontrolled borrowing
• Large rises in interest rates leading to large increases in mortgage payments and defaults
• Higher taxation (for all, not just the 'rich')
• Increased lawlessness and disorder
• A complete end to inward investment (both from UK and overseas businesses)
• A massive run on the pound - which will cause massive inflation (because all goods imported will cot much more)
• A collapse of the market leading to a major crisis in pensions funding (most of our pensions are invested in equities and bonds on our behalf)
• Redundancy and rising unemployment
• Industrial unrest as wages struggle to keep up with the rising prices
• Food and goods shortages as there is no money to buy goods from overseas

ANY economic damage caused by whatever outcome Brexit may have will be minor compared to what a Corbyn government would bring. 

I am old enough (as are many here) to remember the last long period of left labour rule (not the almost Tory economics practised by Blair).

It left the country broke, with 3 day weeks, rubbish piling in the streets, power blackouts, months wait to get a phone, British Steel, British Coal, British Leyland, British Rail ALL loosing money and not delivering on time or on budget, strikes everywhere.  Thatcher had to administer some tough medicine to get back a working economy and competitive industry - and it was tough - I was redundant then as were many others.  But she was only curing the 'illness' caused by rampant labour overspending by Wilson and (to a lesser extent) Callaghan.

•  

Sigh!

More scaremongering! I would like to think that labour has learned lessons from the past. I don't think much of Corbyn as a leader but his heart is roughly in the right place and he may surprise us yet. What I do know is they can't do worse than this tory government as far as the working classes are concerned. If labour under any leader can stop child poverty, food banks, homelessness, a police force that's no longer fit for purpose, zero hours contracts etc etc etc etc , they'll get my vote and if it means borrowing a bit more to improve the infrastructure of GB so we have something to look forward to at last then so be it.

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, toxo said:

What I do know is they can't do worse than this tory government as far as the working classes are concerned.

You mean the Tory government that has given us the nearest thing to full employment the country has had in decades, the stable and low interest rates, gradually improved pensions and is gradually reducing the deficit?

You cannot borrow your way out of a poor economy - you have to work your way out.

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[Dave-G]

50 minutes ago, oowee said:

I think they are out of the EU as well. 

 

[toxo]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

You mean the Tory government that has given us the nearest thing to full employment the country has had in decades, the stable and low interest rates, gradually improved pensions and is gradually reducing the deficit?

You cannot borrow your way out of a poor economy - you have to work your way out.

 

Firstly, show me the employment figures using the benchmark that were used before these manipulating **** tweaked em to suit their figures. That includes leaving out part time workers, zero hours contracts, no contracts and all the so called back to work or training schemes. I was out of work once. They sent me on a six week one day a week course where everyone sat around doing crossword puzzles and the day I started my P45 came through my letterbox because of course I was no longer unemployed. They did teach us how to use a telephone though and made some of the younger ones do a two week work experience FOR NOTHING. That work experience was stacking shelves in a supermarket and included a bank holiday. There was 30 people in that class and every town had at least one building running similar schemes almost every day. You do the math.

This government is supposed to look after all the people. Austerity hasn't affected the upper classes but how many suicides have there been amongst the lower classes? Especially after the way they've handled universal credit.

[Rewulf]

29 minutes ago, toxo said:

I don't think much of Corbyn as a leader but his heart is roughly in the right place

Corbyns heart has been in a place for most of his life, a place where terrorists are heroes, communism is 'cool' and diversity at any cost is a high priority.
This place in his heart is despite his pacifism, a place where anything traditionally British is hated and considered 'wrong' to be fought against , and its enemies nurtured.
This place has unlimited money to be spent on pet social projects, paid for by all those terrible 'wealthy' people that Corbyn hates with a vengeance too . 

A place where all creeds ,colours and religions will mix and be happy , whether they like it or not.

A happy socialist state where the state will provide for you, work will be optional and every need cared for, unless you are one of those nasty Jewish people of course.
A happy place indeed 

[Vince Green]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Corbyns heart has been in a place for most of his life, a place where terrorists are heroes, communism is 'cool' and diversity at any cost is a high priority.
This place in his heart is despite his pacifism, a place where anything traditionally British is hated and considered 'wrong' to be fought against , and its enemies nurtured.
This place has unlimited money to be spent on pet social projects, paid for by all those terrible 'wealthy' people that Corbyn hates with a vengeance too . 

A place where all creeds ,colours and religions will mix and be happy , whether they like it or not.

A happy socialist state where the state will provide for you, work will be optional and every need cared for, unless you are one of those nasty Jewish people of course.
A happy place indeed 

You missed out that he is also bone idle and doesn't like getting his hands dirty with anything that looks even remotely like work. He couldn't function as a Prime Minister because he wouldn't have anybody to criticise.

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

You missed out that he is also bone idle and doesn't like getting his hands dirty with anything that looks even remotely like work. He couldn't function as a Prime Minister because he wouldn't have anybody to criticise.

Ill take your word for it, but thats how the minds of people like Corbyn 'work' 

Having a long discussion on the benefits of socialism = work
Attending terrorist funerals = work
Putting ex lovers into parliamentary jobs =work
Talking twoddle =work 
Plotting the downfall of the rich bourgoise elite = really hard work !

Barely gets a minute to himself the poor man.

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, toxo said:

Firstly, show me the employment figures using the benchmark that were used before these manipulating **** tweaked em to suit their figures.

I'm not going to waste my time - since you cleary indicate you don't believe the official figures.  You can use Google at least as well as I can.

 

1 hour ago, toxo said:

This government is supposed to look after all the people.

Let me remind (or inform?) you of a few raw facts;

• The UK's national debt currently stands at £1.78 Trillion pounds  (If you took committed pension liabilities into account as well it is more like £4.8 trillion pounds)
• The £1.78 trillion is £15,000 per head of the population, or £33,000 for every person in employment
• At the start of the coalition, the debt was increasing at £150 billion per year
• Since then the coalition/Cameron/May governments have reduced this to only increasing at £45 billion a year - That is - our debt - despite making austerity savings' is still increasing at nearly a billion a week, or £45.50 a second.
• We are currently paying £48 billion a year on interest - or in other words all and more of the increase in borrowing simply goes on paying the interest. - at that is at a time with the lowest interest rates in years.

The country is BROKE.  We have no credible way to pay back what we have already borrowed in a generation, more likely 3 generations.  And you support Corbyn and Co proposing to borrow even MORE.

This makes sobering reading http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

 

How do you think it is ever going to get paid back?

Edited December 3, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Toxo

You are a fool!

[TriBsa]

19 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I'm not going to waste my time - since you cleary indicate you don't believe the official figures.  You can use Google at least as well as I can.

 

Let me remind (or inform?) you of a few raw facts;

• The UK's national debt currently stands at £1.78 Trillion pounds  (If you took committed pension liabilities into account as well it is more like £4.8 trillion pounds)
• The £1.78 trillion is £15,000 per head of the population, or £33,000 for every person in employment
• At the start of the coalition, the debt was increasing at £150 billion per year
• Since then the coalition/Cameron/May governments have reduced this to only increasing at £45 billion a year - That is - our debt - despite making austerity savings' is still increasing at nearly a billion a week, or £45.50 a second.
• We are currently paying £48 billion a year on interest - or in other words all and more of the increase in borrowing simply goes on paying the interest. - at that is at a time with the lowest interest rates in years.

The country is BROKE.  We have no credible way to pay back what we have already borrowed in a generation, more likely 3 generations.  And you support Corbyn and Co proposing to borrow even MORE.

This makes sobering reading http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

 

How do you think it is ever going to get paid back?

The largesse of the May/Cameron Governments in committing to spend 0.7% of GDP on Foreign Aid doesn't help. £14.1 Billion pounds last year which can be seen in context of the above figures. This added to unparalled third world imigration driven by the Tories globalist agenda has hardly had a positive effect on the figures either. I agree that we are in dire straits economically, but the "social" side of the Tories performance/agenda would seem to indicate otherwise.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, TriBsa said:

The largesse of the May/Cameron Governments in committing to spend 0.7% of GDP on Foreign Aid doesn't help. £14.1 Billion pounds last year which can be seen in context of the above figures. This added to unparalled third world imigration driven by the Tories globalist agenda has hardly had a positive effect on the figures either. I agree that we are in dire straits economically, but the "social" side of the Tories performance/agenda would seem to indicate otherwise.

I agree completely.  Note though that Labour under Corbyn wants to spend MORE on foreign aid  https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/889149/foreign-aid-labour-jeremy-corbyn-demands-theresa-may-taxpayer-money-international-abroad

Labour would also like to spend on 'Social Justice' rather than 'Charity', by which I think they mean supporting leftist regimes https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/labour-party-outlines-plan-to-redesign-uk-s-approach-international-aid.html

Giving money to countries with space programmes, nuclear weapons programmes and large oil reserves is crass stupidity (and I understand the two largest recipients are India and Nigeria, neither of whom are actually 'poor').  But I regard it as absolute madness to be actually planning to increase debt faster as Corbyn and Co are planning.  I would be delighted to cut foreign aid to things like famine, flood and earthquake relief and help get our debt down.  However

To keep on topic, £40 billion to the EU between now and 2020 (or whenever the transition ends) isn't my idea of wise either .......... but in perspective, it is less than our annual interest bill.

Anyone who thinks you can borrow your way out of debt is a fool.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

Toxo

You are a fool!

 

Harsh, but fair. Anyone who thinks Corbyn is basically okay is very suspect in my book. His treatment of Jews is nothing short of a disgrace. Look at the people he surrounds himself with - terrorists, Abbott, Osanya, Osamor, McDonnell, Momentum.

[oowee]

This Tory Government has the country torn apart. Some on here speak of civil unrest but I would not go so far,. Fragmented certainly and the very Union itself at risk. The level of business uncertainty is at record levels. Even communities and families are set against each other and that is before we look at the food bank crisis, and the universal credit fiasco. Unless you subscribe to the May plan, then the country has no plan and is adrift at the mercy of whatever political shinanigans come along next. We have lost our way and are wasting time treading water. 

I am not for a moment suggesting that Corbyn is the answer (and I think probably Gordon nails it in the last post, with the exception of the Jewish bit) but I would doubt any party could do worse than those we have at the moment. 

[Gordon R]

oowee - without wishing to start an argument, do you think his treatment of Jews is acceptable? He refuses to acknowledge any problem at all.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

....... I would doubt any party could do worse than those we have at the moment. 

Well done for bring us back on topic - - - - - but much as I agree with the majority of your post, adding MacDonells Marxist economics, Abbotts accounting skills and Corbyn's loony left terrorist supporting and unilateral disarmament views plus more government spending will only make matters even worse.  The Labour party is just as split on Brexit as the Tories.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

This Tory Government has the country torn apart. Some on here speak of civil unrest but I would not go so far,. Fragmented certainly and the very Union itself at risk. The level of business uncertainty is at record levels. Even communities and families are set against each other and that is before we look at the food bank crisis, and the universal credit fiasco. Unless you subscribe to the May plan, then the country has no plan and is adrift at the mercy of whatever political shinanigans come along next. We have lost our way and are wasting time treading water. 

I am not for a moment suggesting that Corbyn is the answer (and I think probably Gordon nails it in the last post, with the exception of the Jewish bit) but I would doubt any party could do worse than those we have at the moment. 

Whilst I agree with much of what you say and accept you have no alternative to May's Government, I certainly feel that Comrade Corbyn and Co would so a lot worse!

[old man]

On 30/11/2018 at 14:00, panoma1 said:

I read Tusk has warned the UK it's either "the deal" or no Brexit! Does the stupid, arrogant ******* not grasp that the EU interfering in UK sovereignty issues, is a major reason why we voted for Brexit in the first place! If I were May I would tell the weasel to keep his neb out of our business!........... But then again, May probably asked him to say it..........in order to add the EU's weight to project fear 2?

I saw this, arrogant man, obviously believes the European State and Army will rule regardless of our Sovereign the?

On 30/11/2018 at 15:23, Rewulf said:

Rightly so, if thats what French people want to do.
Things are done differently over there, the government raises fuel duty slightly...

 

In the UK , we get constant higher fuel costs, bans on guns, knives, and lately it seems we are going to ban democracy and go back to the feudal system ?
The British reaction ?

👍

[TriBsa]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Whilst I agree with much of what you say and accept you have no alternative to May's Government, I certainly feel that Comrade Corbyn and Co would so a lot worse!

The only viable and credible alternative to May's Tory government at present  is for May to go. She needs to be replaced by a proper conservative who believes in and will deliver Brexit.

[old man]

I can observe with certainty that most poliitcos speak with forked tongues. This being based on a lifetime of observation and multiple redundancies. It matters not the persuasion, they do because they can and walk away from the results.

[oowee]

19 minutes ago, TriBsa said:

The only viable and credible alternative to May's Tory government at present  is for May to go. She needs to be replaced by a proper conservative who believes in and will deliver Brexit.

What difference would a new leader make? Same as a general election I can't see it sorting anything.

Happy to be shot down in flames but my prediction for now is;

If May's plan does not go through then we start planning and bracing for a no deal, putting in place the contingencies we need. Then out for an election no majority so coalition agrees May type deal version 2? 

Or we get a time extension and ...............................  

[Yellow Bear]

16 minutes ago, oowee said:

Or we get a time extension and ...............................  

get totally stuffed by the united states of soviet Europe,

 

 

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

The situation as I see it is like this;

• Next week there si a vote on May's deal - Parliaments choice.
  • If it passes - then we are on the 'May deal' for the Transition period - which we cannot end without EU agreement.
  • If it looses, we have four choices (whoever ends up in power);
  1. No deal so called 'hard brexit'
  2. Try and renegotiate the 'deal'.
  3. Second referendum
  4. Remain 'in'.

Looking at these in turn;

1. Although Parliament has agreed to leave (Article 50 vote) they also have to have a 'meaningful vote' on the leave arrangement.  They will not get a majority for no 1 - Neither Labour, Lib Dems, Scot Nats would support this - and nor would some Tories ........ so it would never pass.
2. The EU has said they will not renegotiate.  In practice - they probably would - but would not move much.  Merkel and Macron both have troubles at home with seriously diminishing support - and giving ground to the UK won't help that.  They control the EU.  Juncker and Tusk won't want to give anything as the EU is their bread and butter- not to mention a thick layer of jam.  Ireland won't move to help us, nor will Spain. 
3. The Labour party (and possibly Lib Dem and Scot Nats) will support this - as will some Tories - it is the most likely outcome - despite May having rejected it.
4. Parliament would be unlikely to go this way (at this stage) as even they have some grudging respect for the referendum outcome.

So, no 3 is (in my view) the most likely now.  This would be carried out by whoever is PM, be it May, a.n. other Tory, or Corbyn.  Absolutely key to a second referendum is what is the question.  My guess is that it will be "Do you want";

1. To leave the EU with no deal (hard brexit)
2. To leave the EU with the May deal
3. To remain within the EU under the old pre referendum terms

This will split the leave vote enough to enable remain to win.  Brexit will not happen.  We will have achieved nothing other than a massive division in the country and the EU will come out stronger with us weaker.  Why - because ALL of our parties have played internal bickering and party political games rather have served the national interest.

If the question was a simple (a) or (b), then leave might well win, but you can bet that won't be the question - and it will be a 3 way to split the leave vote.