oowee Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 7 minutes ago, muncher said: Some won't, but will you also admit to being wrong if it's a success? The trouble I see is the political class don't seem to understand it wasn't about money. More than happy to, in fact more than that as I am betting an awful lot against it. For many the headline is about, sovereignty, freedom of movement, and not wanting to be part of some perceived super state. They will likely be disappointed on all fronts. Read that article above from the bloke with more experience doing this stuff than the whole of parliament added together and you will see where I am coming from. 1 minute ago, muncher said: Oowee, you come across as very intelligent, I would like to ask you a question as your political leanings seem apparent. Do you believe that the Labour party would make a good government, and not make a complete mess of the economy? That's an easy one. In my book they will be almost as bad as brexit. Unfortunately if the Tories get a majority things are likely to be bad for a very long time as the truth about the Brexit lies start to bite and the public start to understand what is coming down the tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 Boris does not know what it is so what hope do you think we have on here? Whatever it is its already too expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: I do wonder when and if ever this is settled those that voted for it will admit to having done such harm to our country. No doubt they will put the blame elsewhere if they do. I don't blame anyone for voting for Brexit. I very likely would have voted alongside them myself. What I would blame people for though is not being prepared to rethink their position now that so much of the leave campaign's promises and rhetoric have proven to be so much hot air. At the time of the Brexit vote, people like Sir Ivan were in the Civil Service and duty bound not to say what's what. Likewise Barnier and these people in the EU felt duty bound not to be seen to interfere in a British domestic political matter. So they were compelled to sit on the sidelines and stay shtum while the British public were told lie after lie about what a post-Brexit world would look like. And the Remain campaign was so weak and ill-informed itself that the public really didn't have a lot to go on other than their gut feeling. But that was then. NO blame there. But now, it's the willful ignorance that's hard to take. Like I posted the link to Sir Ivan's speech and I know that none of the Brexiters will read it because they don't want to hear what he has to say. And despite having not read it they'll say he's wrong anyway - either that or he's biased. But really, when one of the EU's most experienced senior negotiators talks about the EU and its trade goals and approach to negotiation - why on earth wouldn't anyone who supposedly has an interest in Brexit not choose to read what he has to say? I've come to the conclusion it's because in their hearts they actually know he's right, but their position has become so set in stone and immovable regardless - that there's no point. It doesn't matter if it brings fair winds or foul, Brexit has become become an Article of Faith and like a religious tenet it can't be questioned or challenged. To reconsider or turn from it would make one a traitor or a heretic or some other terrible being. And thus reading Sir Ivan would be not only a waste of time, but a dangerous waste of time to boot. Of course that make argument or persuasion impossible because you can't use logic to move people from a position that is held illogically. But ho hum...that's where we've seemingly arrived at. I suppose I'm lucky in that other than the devaluation of my state pension I'm not going to reap the consequences of this ongoing nightmare that's set to run and run and run. Nonetheless it's all very sad and I fear for the future of my country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 10 minutes ago, oowee said: More than happy to, in fact more than that as I am betting an awful lot against it. For many the headline is about, sovereignty, freedom of movement, and not wanting to be part of some perceived super state. They will likely be disappointed on all fronts. Read that article above from the bloke with more experience doing this stuff than the whole of parliament added together and you will see where I am coming from. That's an easy one. In my book they will be almost as bad as brexit. Unfortunately if the Tories get a majority things are likely to be bad for a very long time as the truth about the Brexit lies start to bite and the public start to understand what is coming down the tracks. Thanks for the reply, I'm not a fan of Boris but what choice is there. I agree a lot needs to change in our society and I'm not sure how this can come about, especially with the very poor political class we seem to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 It’s all about the money with some isn’t it? 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 5 minutes ago, Scully said: It’s all about the money with some isn’t it? 🙂 No, it's not about the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 12 minutes ago, Retsdon said: I don't blame anyone for voting for Brexit. I don't either but I suspect the reason for the vote is a more general dissatisfaction for the reality of life around them rather than a considered view of what needs to change to improve peoples lots. A classic is the immigration reason proffered by some and the proposed points based system, with equal treatment for all as an illogical response likely to compound the problem. The same for releasing the EU shackles to go around the world on a free trade jamboree. The vote is an understandable backlash the reasoning behind it unsound. That said with a different political system and a more collaborative approach I am sure a beneficial Brexit would have been possible but our adversarial politics will not allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Retsdon said: No, it's not about the money. Of course it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 11 minutes ago, muncher said: Thanks for the reply, I'm not a fan of Boris but what choice is there. I agree a lot needs to change in our society and I'm not sure how this can come about, especially with the very poor political class we seem to have. Exactly right. 7 minutes ago, Scully said: It’s all about the money with some isn’t it? 🙂 For me the finance issue is a big part of it, if you want first class services, a decent pension whilst you are young enough to enjoy it. Alongside that are the benefits of integration particularly for those with skills and even those that just want to have some sun in their retirement. It's a recognition that the world has changed and the UK does not stop at the nearest channel port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 27 minutes ago, Retsdon said: because you can't use logic to move people from a position that is held illogically. Yeah, we are back to that yet again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Scully said: Of course it is. Ok, partially it's about the money because we're talking about people's livelihoods being sacrificed on the alter of a very hazy ideal. But it's also about the fabric of society. There are people behind the Brexit scenery - the free trade / no regulation zealots - whose goal is to completely change the social ethos of the country. And they're as fanatical, and reckless of the damage they might cause on the way to achieving their goal, as any Communist. Post-Brexit is Britain is about to become a social experiment. Edited November 26, 2019 by Retsdon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 Soooo, we go with Lord Hezeltine then and all vote Liberal. That man is far up his own backside. Peirs Morgan absolutely tied him in knots on Good Morning Britain. His decision to tell everone to vote liberal is purely because he has lost the argument and forcing a Liberal Government on this country is the only way he thinks he can get his way. I remeber him jumping about wielding the Mace in the Commons because on another occasion he couldn't get his own way. He has a seriously mardy streak for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 Just now, Walker570 said: Soooo, we go with Lord Hezeltine then and all vote Liberal. That man is far up his own backside. Peirs Morgan absolutely tied him in knots on Good Morning Britain. His decision to tell everone to vote liberal is purely because he has lost the argument and forcing a Liberal Government on this country is the only way he thinks he can get his way. I remeber him jumping about wielding the Mace in the Commons because on another occasion he couldn't get his own way. He has a seriously mardy streak for sure. Sooooo we go with the Boris who clearly does not know his **** from his elbow and watch the whole Brexit thing implode as only a run away train can do? We had better hope no overall control so we can find some middle ground or wait for the next crisis to arrive. Or at best capitulation to the EU machine and the hollow claim of victory for a tariff free half deal rather than a no deal fall out. Can Boris hold that together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 11 minutes ago, henry d said: Yeah, we are back to that yet again... I'm not really too sure you're in any position to questions anyones logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 12 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Ok, partially it's about the money because we're talking about people's livelihoods being sacrificed on the alter of a very hazy ideal. But it's also about the fabric of society. There are people behind the Brexit scenery - the free trade / no regulation zealots - whose goal is to completely change the social ethos of the country. And they're as fanatical, and reckless of the damage they might cause on the way to achieving their goal, as any Communist. Post-Brexit is Britain is about to become a social experiment. No, it's completely about the money. The remainers project fear was based 100 percent on money and what the UK as a country, and each individual would lose from a financial perspective if we voted to leave...not leave, but simply voted to leave. Hazy ideal or not, I voted leave to be free from what I believe to be a corrupt and unaccountable regime. I have seen nothing during the last three years to diminish that belief, but much to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Scully said: Hazy ideal or not, I voted leave to be free from what I believe to be a corrupt and unaccountable regime. I have seen nothing during the last three years to diminish that belief, but much to the contrary. I think you're about to find out how unaccountable it is when - like Wallonia did with the TTIP - a country or region of Europe repeatedly scuttles Brussels' post-Brexit deal with the UK because some article or other in it is deemed to be not in their interests and they won't ratify the treaty until it's changed. In trade deals Brussels only has as much rope as is allowed by the 27 countries. Sure, most of the time countries pool their resources and let Brussels handle things but an individual country has a perfect right to nix any post Brexit trade agreement. I suppose it could be called holding Brussels to account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Retsdon said: I think you're about to find out how unaccountable it is when - like Wallonia did with the TTIP - a country or region of Europe repeatedly scuttles Brussels' post-Brexit deal with the UK because some article or other in it is deemed to be not in their interests and they won't ratify the treaty until it's changed. In trade deals Brussels only has as much rope as is allowed by the 27 countries. Sure, most of the time countries pool their resources and let Brussels handle things but an individual country has a perfect right to nix any post Brexit trade agreement. I suppose it could be called holding Brussels to account. You make it sound as though the EU wants us to leave! 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Scully said: You make it sound as though the EU wants us to leave! 😂 More like a divorce, there sick of us, want us out the house but to keep paying the Bill's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Scully said: You make it sound as though the EU wants us to leave! They do. You just have to read the European newspapers to see how sentiment has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 16 minutes ago, Retsdon said: They do. You just have to read the European newspapers to see how sentiment has changed. If only. It would come at a cost no doubt....like I said, it’s all about the money. 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Scully said: I'm not really too sure you're in any position to questions anyones logic. If you are not really too sure I'm okay with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Scully said: No, it's completely about the money. The remainers project fear was based 100 percent on money and what the UK as a country, and each individual would lose from a financial perspective if we voted to leave...not leave, but simply voted to leave. Hazy ideal or not, I voted leave to be free from what I believe to be a corrupt and unaccountable regime. I have seen nothing during the last three years to diminish that belief, but much to the contrary. I do think we are both singing from the same hymn sheet Scully 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 24 minutes ago, henry d said: If you are not really too sure I'm okay with that! It’s just a turn of phrase Henry, laden with sarcasm. Believe me, I’m sure. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Sarakun Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 The Common Market, all those years ago, was a fantastic idea. Freedom of movement for goods and people, brilliant. The secret, unaccountable government it evolved into, was not good. It is always about money, money you and I will never see. I have wage slips from 1980, to now. Everything has gone up in price, but not my wages. I earn now, what I was earning 20 years ago. Though everything has gone up in price. How has the EU helped me? It hasn't. I want out. How can it get worse? I am prepared to take that chance. I am looking forward to the change that is going to mess the whole financial system up, and put the Great, back into Great Britain. Ireland, Scotland, Wales, I pray our Politicians have it in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted November 26, 2019 Report Share Posted November 26, 2019 28 minutes ago, Scully said: It’s just a turn of phrase Henry, laden with sarcasm. Believe me, I’m sure. 👍 I'm sure I don't believe you, but well done trying to turn it around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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