Lead ban & BASC

[Smokersmith]

2 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Then so potentially will everybody else carry on using lead for the next 5 years and then voluntary ban achieves nothing

The statement about the 5 year period, is to allow commercial companies time to develop suitable alternatives … and to allow us time to adjust.

It's a simple concept …. similar to Volvo stating that they wouldn't be making cars with combustion engines in 10 years time.

 

[rbrowning2]

2 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

The statement about the 5 year period, is to allow commercial companies time to develop suitable alternatives … and to allow us time to adjust.

It's a simple concept …. similar to Volvo stating that they wouldn't be making cars with combustion engines in 10 years time.

 

Indeed but why would you wait five year to change if you can change now?

if Volvo offered their electric car in four years not ten would they not expect somebody to buy them rather than everybody wait for the ten years to expire.

 

[bruno22rf]

Why can we not simply label all Game shot with lead? The end consumer then decides if they want to take the risk of eating the meat - works with Raw Milk?

[rbrowning2]

1 minute ago, bruno22rf said:

Why can we not simply label all Game shot with lead? The end consumer then decides if they want to take the risk of eating the meat - works with Raw Milk?

Think it currently is, but the big buyers are saying they will no longer take the game if it is shot with lead and then the big game shoots have no market for the game and then no justification for shooting it and big money lost.

 

[Farmboy91]

2 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Why can we not simply label all Game shot with lead? The end consumer then decides if they want to take the risk of eating the meat - works with Raw Milk?

Because that wouldn't have the desired effect on shooting, remember this isn't about lead being poisonous.

[motty]

7 hours ago, mick miller said:

In all honesty I think the game shooting fraternity should be looking at a voluntary ban on the release and subsequent shooting of all game birds within the next five years. Despite the evidence that game meat is sustainable and the allied activities benefit many other species, the general public is largely against the wholesale release of thousands of reared, non-native birds into the environment every year simply to be shot for sport. We don't need them for food and chickens are much more cost effective to raise anyway.

Whereas pigeon, rabbit and crow shooting can still hold the moral high ground, providing a valuable and free service to the farming community and the country as a whole (think of the cost of publicly funded pest species control), the game shooting industries can make no such claims. The tide of public opinion is marching inexorably onwards toward this outcome and, despite best efforts, it is clear that game shooting has been painted into a corner od sustainability and credibility.

It is with this in mind that I propose that all organisations get behind my suggested capitulation, despite any evidence to the contrary, and adopt this wholesale, voluntary, moratorium on game shooting as soon as possible. It is clear that this is the logical next step. We can kiss goodbye to the controversial muirburn policies, the tarring by association by unscrupulous game keepers and the accusations of raptor persecution. This would leave the rest of us in a much better place, those that simply shoot species such as deer, fox, rabbit, pigeon and crow for pest or species control without the fear of having the mud thrown at us for our legal, necessary activities, or the clay and target shooting communities whose activities take place in controlled and defined areas that do not affect SSSI's or any other sensitive area.

Whose with me?

Sorry, I strongly disagree. I think most people are Indifferent to the fact that we release and shoot game. If game shooting were to be banned, all other shooting may well follow!

[rbrowning2]

1 minute ago, motty said:

Sorry, I strongly disagree. I think most people are Indifferent to the fact that we release and shoot game. If game shooting were to be banned, all other shooting may well follow!

Do we really need game shooting to survive?

it gets most of the bad press given it is perceived as just killing for fun. If it went why would simulated game shooting not replace it?
Just like in the past when live pigeon shooting was replaced with glass balls and now clay pigeons. The live game shooters would just have to adjust to the change just like now adjusting to the use of non toxic shot. And on the plus side their would be no closed season so it may bring more money and more people into it.

all other forms of shooting are more justified, it is the game shooting that is most contentious.

May be it’s time shooting took a long hard look at its self if we are to ever get back to quietly going about our sport.

 

[Ultrastu]

Human nature as a population  is to try and change things around us .we always feel that things can ne improved upon (whether they can or not ) .

So to try and hold back the tide of "advancement " is very difficult .the only solution is instead of putting the brakes on and digging in .is to turn in a different direction  and circle round the back if possible .this I REALLY HOPE  is bascs strategy  to saving shooting sports ,country way of life , eating meat ,and the destruction  of the planet through veganism .

I WANT  to see the protection in law of the right to choose my food and the means of how to scource it for my self . 

 

[enfieldspares]

31 minutes ago, motty said:

Sacrificed? Explain how! I fully expect to carry on shooting pigeons over decoys or at roost, or rabbit shooting if I choose - all with steel shot.

You do realise that pigeons will need to be shot with non toxic, if they are to continue being sold abroad in the EU?

Explain how if I have only the one gun, that is fixed choked 3/4 and FULL that I use for clays at DTL and Double Rise that I can shoot steel through it please? All the information I've seen on the internet says do not use steel shot in barrels over 1/2 choke. It can't use steel!

The pigeons and pheasants that I shoot either get eaten by me, or friends, or shared between the guns and the beaters? None are sold and so none of them leave UK shores. Those that want them sold in the EU then let them use non-toxic. I am not my brother's keeper!

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, scutt said:

This ban aint about lead its about shooting.Death by a thousand cuts.

fox hunting

coursing

air rifle licence

medicals

tail docking

G-L.

B.O.P.

GROUSE MOORS.

Would like to win at least one battle if not the war

we lost the war a long time ago it’s just a slow retreat until the end now the antis probably have the champagne on ice already 

[enfieldspares]

6 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Do we really need game shooting to survive?

it gets most of the bad press given it is perceived as just killing for fun. If it went why would simulated game shooting not replace it?
Just like in the past when live pigeon shooting was replaced with glass balls and now clay pigeons. The live game shooters would just have to adjust to the change just like now adjusting to the use of non toxic shot. And on the plus side their would be no closed season so it may bring more money and more people into it.

all other forms of shooting are more justified, it is the game shooting that is most contentious.

May be it’s time shooting took a long hard look at its self if we are to ever get back to quietly going about our sport.

 

It may come to that. It may come to that.

[Farmboy91]

23 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Do we really need game shooting to survive?

it gets most of the bad press given it is perceived as just killing for fun. If it went why would simulated game shooting not replace it?
Just like in the past when live pigeon shooting was replaced with glass balls and now clay pigeons. The live game shooters would just have to adjust to the change just like now adjusting to the use of non toxic shot. And on the plus side their would be no closed season so it may bring more money and more people into it.

all other forms of shooting are more justified, it is the game shooting that is most contentious.

May be it’s time shooting took a long hard look at its self if we are to ever get back to quietly going about our sport.

 

What about the millions of pounds and thousands of jobs it provides in rural areas? 

The countryside will suffer if gamekeepers are not out there. 

I'll add an edit.

Anyone who's properly into shooting and countryside management knows what benefits game shoots bring to wildlife. I sincerely hope the day does not come where game shooting is lost. It will be a truly sad day for the countryside I grew up in, still live in and love.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Farmboy91

[Penelope]

27 minutes ago, motty said:

Sorry, I strongly disagree. I think most people are Indifferent to the fact that we release and shoot game. If game shooting were to be banned, all other shooting may well follow!

It's very much tongue in cheek Motty.

[rbrowning2]

19 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

What about the millions of pounds and thousands of jobs it provides in rural areas? 

The countryside will suffer if gamekeepers are not out there. 

Indeed that is a risk, but how do we know that the simulated game shooting would not sustain a lot of these jobs or even create more, I know people who shoot only clays for example who would likely enjoy it and it may even become a new sport like English sporting clays or fitasc.

as to the countryside suffering again the drives would still be need for the simulated game and I think the other option is what they call re wildling or diversify farmers are good at that.

jobs come and go all the time in this day and age, sad fact of life.

i know this is all very contentious but may be it is time to think out of the box and look to the future after all cartridge costs are only going to increase as is the cost of game, £30 to £60 a bird compared to 10p for a clay at today prices, what price will it be in five years time?

[Scully]

33 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Do we really need game shooting to survive?

it gets most of the bad press given it is perceived as just killing for fun. If it went why would simulated game shooting not replace it?
Just like in the past when live pigeon shooting was replaced with glass balls and now clay pigeons. The live game shooters would just have to adjust to the change just like now adjusting to the use of non toxic shot. And on the plus side their would be no closed season so it may bring more money and more people into it.

all other forms of shooting are more justified, it is the game shooting that is most contentious.

May be it’s time shooting took a long hard look at its self if we are to ever get back to quietly going about our sport.

 

I've replied to this very same post in the other thread. 

[motty]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Because at this time we have no biodegradable wads as far as I know. Which is why I would have done this in two parts during the five years ie ban lead but allow one use plastic wads for say the next three years until the biodegradable wads are available.

unless somebody who has experience of steel knows of such wads, it is not possible to meet the conditions of the voluntary ban.

The technology is already there! We HAVE biodegradable wads available. It won't be long before the more unpopular gauges and chamber sizes are catered for.

[lancer425]

23 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Do we really need game shooting to survive?

it gets most of the bad press given it is perceived as just killing for fun. If it went why would simulated game shooting not replace it?
Just like in the past when live pigeon shooting was replaced with glass balls and now clay pigeons. The live game shooters would just have to adjust to the change just like now adjusting to the use of non toxic shot. And on the plus side their would be no closed season so it may bring more money and more people into it.

all other forms of shooting are more justified, it is the game shooting that is most contentious.

May be it’s time shooting took a long hard look at its self if we are to ever get back to quietly going about our sport.

 

Yes we need/  the country needs game shooting to survive,  Game shoots need maintaining have safe habitat with effective predator control managed areas of cover which often provide valuable habitat in the off season for other species to thrive there.

What is good habitat for game birds is good for many non quarry species.  The flora & fauna benefit, areas that might not be tolerated in a non shooting estate are accepted as habitat or conservation. 

 Shoots are often money makers for the local economy, it can be anything from Shovel wick halls staff laying on a big spread for the landed gentry attending, to has humble as the little newspaper shop selling a Mars bar to the beater on his way to the shoot in his scruffy white van. AND everything in-between the basket meals at the local the fish and chip shop dinner break run on the knock about syndicate lads. Of course we need them every last scratty little shot on every small farm accros the countryside or big estate they all add to the economy and thats not missing out the gun shop the farm store cartridges the little fishing tackle shops with qa slab or ten of cartridges the local syndicate like to buy. The grouse moors the list goes on game shooting is a very important integral part of the countryside, and without game shootings contribution we would be living in a very different country in but a year or so.

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Indeed that is a risk, but how do we know that the simulated game shooting would not sustain a lot of these jobs or even create more, I know people who shoot only clays for example who would likely enjoy it and it may even become a new sport like English sporting clays or fitasc.

as to the countryside suffering again the drives would still be need for the simulated game and I think the other option is what they call re wildling or diversify farmers are good at that.

jobs come and go all the time in this day and age, sad fact of life.

i know this is all very contentious but may be it is time to think out of the box and look to the future after all cartridge costs are only going to increase as is the cost of game, £30 to £60 a bird compared to 10p for a clay at today prices, what price will it be in five years time?

If we're going to be so negative, why don't we just ban shooting altogether? No more poisoning of the environment form either clay shoots nor live quarry shooting. No more risk to the general public of someone going apepoop with a gun. No more people killing stuff for sport. No need to fork out for expensive cartridges which are just going to increase in price. No more stubbing up for insurance, association membership, no more hassle over Gp's costs, nor certificate fees. 

We could all still enjoy the countryside as we do now, only with a camera. 👍

[motty]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

So only partly complying with the voluntary ban, which is understandable given the extra you would need to pay for biodegradable wads.
But their are available 32gm fibres in lead for about the same so it is good to see you using steel. I think the orgs in trying to ban both lead and non biodegradable plastic wads at the same time have made it very hard or expensive for everybody to comply.

 

You are just sounding awkward. I don't have to comply with anything, as of yet! I can continue to use what I want. I bought the steel cartridges so I can sell pigeons for hawk food. My purchases have not been made with any proposed ban in mind.

[rbrowning2]

9 minutes ago, motty said:

The technology is already there! We HAVE biodegradable wads available. It won't be long before the more unpopular gauges and chamber sizes are catered for.

But not for 28gauge which due to a poor shoulder I shoot mostly, unless you can point me in the direction of them.

so as I see it I can only shoot expensive bismuth if I am to comply with the voluntary ban at this time.

i would shoot steel but don’t know of any manufacture loading it in 28ga as I don’t think any wads are made for steel shot in 28ga yet alone biodegradable ones so I guess I have the five years transition period to continue with lead until the technology arrives.

so if I was to shoot at a location where they state steel shot only to comply with the voluntary ban I assume I would either get turned away or told to carry on which would then but lead shot game in the bag.
28ga is quite popular with game shooters I know as rather than pushing to the limits with extreme high birds they prefer to challenge themselves with a smaller gauge gun at sensible birds.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by rbrowning2

[Farmboy91]

20 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Indeed that is a risk, but how do we know that the simulated game shooting would not sustain a lot of these jobs or even create more, I know people who shoot only clays for example who would likely enjoy it and it may even become a new sport like English sporting clays or fitasc.

as to the countryside suffering again the drives would still be need for the simulated game and I think the other option is what they call re wildling or diversify farmers are good at that.

jobs come and go all the time in this day and age, sad fact of life.

i know this is all very contentious but may be it is time to think out of the box and look to the future after all cartridge costs are only going to increase as is the cost of game, £30 to £60 a bird compared to 10p for a clay at today prices, what price will it be in five years time?

@lancer425 said it spot on in he's reply.

The time and money will simply not be invested into the countryside if game shooting goes.

We are not talking about 'a few jobs' this is a whole industry, something that some area's rely almost solely on. People who do it because that's their passion in life. It isn't just a job.

[motty]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Then so potentially will everybody else carry on using lead for the next 5 years and then voluntary ban achieves nothing, surly the logic is that you change over as quickly as circumstances allow. Which for most modern 12gauge guns is now using either the eley offering or the bioammo announced at the recent shooting show.

would be good if basc David could comment on this issue.

Why are you finding this so hard to comprehend? Yes, potentially most people will use lead over the next 5 years. The next 5 years is for people to use up existing lead stocks and for cartridge manufacturers to develop new loads. I could have bought some eco wad steel today. I didn't, because I can use other stuff that's cheaper.

[rbrowning2]

14 minutes ago, motty said:

You are just sounding awkward. I don't have to comply with anything, as of yet! I can continue to use what I want. I bought the steel cartridges so I can sell pigeons for hawk food. My purchases have not been made with any proposed ban in mind.

Fully agree which is why I said it was good that you purchased steel shot, what ever your reason for doing so. I ha e read a lot of your post over time and you have been very positive with respect to using steel shot. 

5 minutes ago, motty said:

I didn't, because I can use other stuff that's cheaper.

Again fully agree as I expect I would and will regardless of the type of shot, which for 28ga will be lead for I suspect quite some time. But in doing so we are ignoring the aims of the voluntary ban.

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by rbrowning2

[ClemFandango]

5 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Of course it doesn’t apply to rifle ammunition the same as clay grounds say steel shot is dangerous but it’s safe in the countryside 🙄🤭

It does apply to rifle ammunition. Lots of people and organisations are using non lead rifle ammo for thay reason. 

[lancer425]

rbrowning2 stop fretting about stuff, its covered just about already has been more or less 20 years now.  We will see wads come on sale before much longer, and soon as they do we will all be incorporating them in reloads, and factories will be using them in comercial loads. B&P Galandi ETC will be on this all ready, i doubt we will get to the season before one or even more bio option is available to us.