Lead ban & BASC

[lancer425]

9 minutes ago, AULD YIN said:

We in this country  (SCOTLAND ) can shoot ducks legally with lead ,another point you got wrong,why not give us facts instead of  your opinion of facts

Tell me something i dont know, so all these lead shot ducks were shipped down from scotland is that what you are saying.?

. But in the subject of Scotland and inland lead. It was a good idea. but its leaving us as in Real shoreline wildfowlers in a bit of a grey area. The areas in Scotland that are not actually draining into wetlands in the true interpretation of the law are few and far between. and this law is abused. Make no doubt about that. it is a thorn in the side for many wildfowlers on the shores up there.

[AULD YIN]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

Tell me something i dont know, so all these lead shot ducks were shipped down from scotland is that what you are saying.?

. But in the subject of Scotland and inland lead. It was a good idea. but its leaving us as in Real shoreline wildfowlers in a bit of a grey area. The areas in Scotland that are not actually draining into wetlands in the true interpretation of the law are few and far between. and this law is abused. Make no doubt about that. it is a thorn in the side for many wildfowlers on the shores up there.

Try reading it again , if you know it why not state it ,you said  COUNTRY   or is it lets make up a story time  or fill in what you want  

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I should have thought that the idea of taxpayers money being used to finance research to 'subsidise' a 'rich man's sport of killing innocent wildlife' is about as politically toxic as you can get!

 Give the cartridge companies in this country NOTHING. They got more money than they ever deserved anyway. The Scandinavian wad makers or B&P Galandi will come up with something, then they will just assemble ammo with those wads. 

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, AULD YIN said:

Try reading it again , if you know it why not state it ,you said  COUNTRY   or is it lets make up a story time  or fill in what you want  

So i said country instead of England and Wales.

My point was Ducks were illegal shot with lead and put into game dealers for two years AFAIR. and there was knowledge of this, it was noted in the press and media, but what did the shooters do. exactly the same the next year. If that is not flaunting the law then i do not know what is . Non lead is a CIVIL LAW.  The fact its been ignored by so many on these duck drives IN ENGLAND AND WALES is frankly not acceptable. We could have lost  lead there and then based on those peoples actions alone.

How could we have realistically argued with the government if they had banned all lead when they found those ducks year on year."you wont behave yourselves so we are taking it away".  How it works is Law abiding people might not agree with a law but they dont ignore it. Wildfowlers don’t ignore it. what gives The game shooters the idea they can break a civil law openly and all the time.  I feel sorry for the few game shooters that used steel and still got tared with the same brush as the others that broke the law. Sorry but its the company you keep. THREE TIMES ON THIS POST I HAVE SAID THIS NOW NON LEAD IS A CIVIL LAW. 

[theshootist]

4 hours ago, grahamch said:

I see from the latest press release BASC et al have approached government to see if R&D finance can be provided to cartridge makers.

The UK shooting industry/community contains some hugely rich folk from here and overseas who could well afford to bankroll cartridge developments.

I wonder if they have been approached to see if they will divvy up?  

Unfortunately the chances of either are very low indeed. 

[AULD YIN]

17 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

So i said country instead of England and Wales.

My point was Ducks were illegal shot with lead and put into game dealers for two years AFAIR. and there was knowledge of this, it was noted in the press and media, but what did the shooters do. exactly the same the next year. If that is not flaunting the law then i do not know what is . Non lead is a CIVIL LAW.  The fact its been ignored by so many on these duck drives IN ENGLAND AND WALES is frankly not acceptable. We could have lost  lead there and then based on those peoples actions alone.

How could we have realistically argued with the government if they had banned all lead when they found those ducks year on year."you wont behave yourselves so we are taking it away".  How it works is Law abiding people might not agree with a law but they dont ignore it. Wildfowlers don’t ignore it. what gives The game shooters the idea they can break a civil law openly and all the time.  I feel sorry for the few game shooters that used steel and still got tared with the same brush as the others that broke the law. Sorry but its the company you keep. THREE TIMES ON THIS POST I HAVE SAID THIS NOW NON LEAD IS A CIVIL LAW. 

Christ but you go on and on and on ,so   your saying its the english wildfowlers fault for shooting ducks with lead i thats caused all this is it? where did you get this information from?

Edited March 3, 2020 by AULD YIN
add on info

[Rob85]

Starting to think we are flogging a dead horse with this thread now.... or flogging a dead BASC for that matter. In the short term I think cartridge manufacturers need to up their production of standard pressure steel. It might not be to everyone's taste or their expensive guns taste, so buy a cheap Baikal or hatsan escort or something like that and abuse it until something else comes along at a reasonable price that you can run through a 50grand purdey. Is it not better to have a gun to continue your sport than get hung up on the pretty safe queens that some people own? 5 years may not be enough time to develop new and exciting stuff but in 5 years you could have still be shooting with beater gun that will devour steel and still clatter pigeons at a shade over 30 yards than sitting on your backside crying that you can't shoot as there's no lead. I think BASC et al have bolted the horse from the stable and there's no going back now. WJ, the government and every anti in the country will be on this and you cannot un-ring the bell so I think we will all just have to get on with it as essentially your only other option is to stop shooting live animals and stick with clays or hand in your guns. As for my guns I'll just be getting my chokes bored out for standard steel and buying a hatsan for shooting anything a bit more spicy.

[lancer425]

18 minutes ago, AULD YIN said:

Christ but you go on and on and on ,so   your saying its the english wildfowlers fault for shooting ducks with lead i thats caused all this is it? where did you get this information from?

No idea where you got that from. Wildfowlers did not break the law, the game shooting world broke the law shooting ducks on shoots with lead. two years on the trot. WHY? its a civil Law. You can not do this.

9 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

Starting to think we are flogging a dead horse with this thread now.... or flogging a dead BASC for that matter. In the short term I think cartridge manufacturers need to up their production of standard pressure steel. It might not be to everyone's taste or their expensive guns taste, so buy a cheap Baikal or hatsan escort or something like that and abuse it until something else comes along at a reasonable price that you can run through a 50grand purdey. Is it not better to have a gun to continue your sport than get hung up on the pretty safe queens that some people own? 5 years may not be enough time to develop new and exciting stuff but in 5 years you could have still be shooting with beater gun that will devour steel and still clatter pigeons at a shade over 30 yards than sitting on your backside crying that you can't shoot as there's no lead. I think BASC et al have bolted the horse from the stable and there's no going back now. WJ, the government and every anti in the country will be on this and you cannot un-ring the bell so I think we will all just have to get on with it as essentially your only other option is to stop shooting live animals and stick with clays or hand in your guns. As for my guns I'll just be getting my chokes bored out for standard steel and buying a hatsan for shooting anything a bit more spicy.

Good post, but every anti and wj etc were all ready on this long before this announcement. i don’t think we have all the facts yet. Lets wait and see what unfolds first before blaming the shooting orgs too much.

[AULD YIN]

4 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

No idea where you got that from. Wildfowlers did not break the law, the game shooting world broke the law shooting ducks on shoots with lead. two years on the trot. WHY? its a civil Law. You can not do this.

Christ but you go on and on and on ,so   your saying its the english  game shooters  fault for shooting ducks with lead i thats caused all this is it? 

TRY AGAIN 

[Konor]

1 minute ago, Rob85 said:

Starting to think we are flogging a dead horse with this thread now.... or flogging a dead BASC for that matter. In the short term I think cartridge manufacturers need to up their production of standard pressure steel. It might not be to everyone's taste or their expensive guns taste, so buy a cheap Baikal or hatsan escort or something like that and abuse it until something else comes along at a reasonable price that you can run through a 50grand purdey. Is it not better to have a gun to continue your sport than get hung up on the pretty safe queens that some people own? 5 years may not be enough time to develop new and exciting stuff but in 5 years you could have still be shooting with beater gun that will devour steel and still clatter pigeons at a shade over 30 yards than sitting on your backside crying that you can't shoot as there's no lead. I think BASC et al have bolted the horse from the stable and there's no going back now. WJ, the government and every anti in the country will be on this and you cannot un-ring the bell so I think we will all just have to get on with it as essentially your only other option is to stop shooting live animals and stick with clays or hand in your guns. As for my guns I'll just be getting my chokes bored out for standard steel and buying a hatsan for shooting anything a bit more spicy.

If standard steel is restricted to 30 yards range I’ll maybe bore out my AYA #3 magnum to 1/4 choke both barrels and hope with the 3 inch case range might be extended to 40 yards with the right cartridge. I’ll use my Extrema 3 1/2 inch for heavier loads on the shore.

Until then I’ll be buying some good quality 2 1/2 inch lead loads for my Damascus barrelled gun and some 25 g lead loads for my 20 bore and for the next five years use them both for all my shooting inland and enjoy them I’ll probably use one in the morning the other in the afternoon on my day afield.

If a heavy barrelled single barrelled ,single shot boxlock  fit for steel pressures comes on the market I’ll consider getting one.

 

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

1/2 oz of pure copper 6s in a2.5 inch .410  case,  shove it with SP3. light it with a cci209m "consistant" it will kill any partridge ever breed out to about  30 yards. Copper patterns like steel. Awesome. generally. Can about duplicate that with bismuth but would have to be my own @35 tin in the melt. i would want 7s and i would need buffer. I think i could get that to 30yds  maybe a little more.

Can do well into the 40s  with 20,magnum  and into the 50s with a normal  12.

No real need for big loads around an oz is enough to get it done on game. at these closer ranges where you have pressure to spare as in the bigger gun the better, its always best to tame that pressure into speed if you can hold it altogether.  As range increases the advantages disapear. But to 25/30 yards the extra fylbs can pay dividends and if you up the FPS you can reduce the shot size gain count. But its about working out a balance between excess speed and your target range the more range the less speed matters as they cancel each other out. Man when you think about it factory ammo is very average indeed. good luck whatever you do.

 

Thank you very useful post 👍👍👍

[lancer425]

27 minutes ago, AULD YIN said:

Christ but you go on and on and on ,so   your saying its the english  game shooters  fault for shooting ducks with lead i thats caused all this is it? 

TRY AGAIN 

Stop being obtuse. You do not have an argument here, shooting those ducks with lead was an illegal act a crime breaking a civil law. If you think that was a good advert for shooting generally and lead shot then good luck with that then.

[Konor]

3 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Stop being obtuse. You do not have an argument here, shooting those ducks with lead was an illegal act a crime breaking a civil law. If you think that was a good advert for shooting generally and lead shot then good luck with that then.

This whole thread has not been a good advert for shooting generally. It has spotlighted the divisions within shooting, called for game shooting to be replaced with simulated game/ clay shoots , and highlighted the lack of support for our shooting organisations.

As an aside some Wildfowlers on the shore continue to use lead you would be naive to think otherwise.

[AULD YIN]

26 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Stop being obtuse. You do not have an argument here, shooting those ducks with lead was an illegal act a crime breaking a civil law. If you think that was a good advert for shooting generally and lead shot then good luck with that then.

No answer again about your claim as to  the cause of this fiasco then,  civil law ,does that cover all the UK?

Edited March 3, 2020 by AULD YIN

[AULD YIN]

34 minutes ago, Konor said:

This whole thread has not been a good advert for shooting generally. It has spotlighted the divisions within shooting, called for game shooting to be replaced with simulated game/ clay shoots , and highlighted the lack of support for our shooting organisations.

As an aside some Wildfowlers on the shore continue to use lead you would be naive to think otherwise.

Konor , my shooting is 99%  vermin no game no  clay  no wildfowling  but support  all the members who do, as to my shooting org,(SACS) sends me an email telling me that they  as a group have been in contact with the manufacturers  then after the manufactures statement SACS then send me another email stating they were under the impression  there had been contact what am i supposed  to think?

edit to add  71 years  old dont think i have 5 years left so  i have enough lead carts left to do me and leave the younger generation  to sort  out  a dwindling  sport/hobby/pastime

Edited March 3, 2020 by AULD YIN

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, Konor said:

This whole thread has not been a good advert for shooting generally. It has spotlighted the divisions within shooting, called for game shooting to be replaced with simulated game/ clay shoots , and highlighted the lack of support for our shooting organisations.

As an aside some Wildfowlers on the shore continue to use lead you would be naive to think otherwise.

Sorry konor. I do not see it that way at all.  I think it has been a good advert for shooting. It has showed that the vast majority of shooters are either prepared for change or are at least interested in the options available to them. Many have asked questions and been given answers, to go away with and act upon in due course.  I think if anything a good number of the the die hards who were  non lead sceptics at first. Are looking at this in a different light  now.

  Game shooting is good for the country and its countryside, always has been always will be, its shaped out country to some extent. We owe it for providing safe well managed habitat, effective predator and pest control and jobs and incomes both in and outside the shooting community. .Game shooting is essential.

 Right down to the releasing of birds into land that in many cases would be just farmed, has a wealth of habitat for all species to thrive in not just the game birds who we are simply releasing and growing them on in these areas until we decide to harvest them.

  As for the lack of support for our shooting organisations, on the face if it yes, but this is typical knee jerk reactions from a stubborn hardcore of our community.   I think as more is known of the exact details of all this attitudes could well change with regards the actions of the shooting organisations. 

Regarding Coastal wildfowlers shooting Lead. I must be naive then because i really do not see it .  I am in a few clubs well known mix with a lot of dedicated wildfowlers , visit their homes reloading rooms in communication via social media facebook and text. its hard to hide closet lead use in such circles. It really is.

 Most spend a great deal of their time fooling with steel and other shot types. swapping info showing patterns and that is just like now in the off season.

 Not saying it couldn’t happen, but i do not see it has being measurable its so small. You can not realistically get away with this . Most wildfowlers know non tox inside out, there would be a wad they found that triggered a shadow of doubt, other things will fit that Super XX case that viscerene wrap. straight out of a XX Winchester. That pink knocked out the federal premier case coupled with the Pink federal pattern driver in the creek. NO! possible but its just not happening certainly in big percentages. Its how it is. And put it this way if ought they are history way too much to lose most value their reputation much more than this.  Most wildfowlers are seriously addicted to wildfowling they can not just move on to something else, they have to stay compliant to retain this way of life. . 

[lancer425]

34 minutes ago, AULD YIN said:

No answer again about your claim as to  the cause of this fiasco then,  civil law ,does that cover all the UK?

I am not a lawyer and if its a civil law all over the uk  or not i am not 100% sure. But it is in ENGLAND that much i am 100% about.

I do not know what answer you want from me and i do not believe you do either.  But if you are in some way trying to link this to the lead shot ducks . IT can not have helped is my view. You might have other ideas. That i imagine is highly probable.

Now GIVE ME ONE ON SPORT.

[AULD YIN]

22 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I am not a lawyer and if its a civil law all over the uk  or not i am not 100% sure. But it is in ENGLAND that much i am 100% about.

I do not know what answer you want from me and i do not believe you do either.  But if you are in some way trying to link this to the lead shot ducks . IT can not have helped is my view. You might have other ideas. That i imagine is highly probable.

Now GIVE ME ONE ON SPORT.

Not trying to link anything and on the contrary i thought  thats what you  were implying ... I dont think you give  straight answers,  blether springs to mind.

 

[lancer425]

37 minutes ago, AULD YIN said:

Not trying to link anything and on the contrary i thought  thats what you  were implying ... I dont think you give  straight answers,  blether springs to mind.

 

Straight questions would be a prime place to get straight answers. Being obtuse and trying to get cute with me does not become you .

Ask  what you want to know, i am done with your bile. . one or the other i do not suffer fools gladly sir. .

[figgy]

I think all this furore will blow over for the next four years and something will only happen in the last year. 

Manufacturers are all set up for lead shot. Not enough powders yet for all the steel carts. Lots more development to be done with wads. CIO limits. 

Knee jerk reactions as is the usual.

Carry on and enjoy shooting lead were it's still legal to do so. 

Might be easier in future to just sell all lead shot game abroad. 

[Konor]

6 hours ago, AULD YIN said:

Konor , my shooting is 99%  vermin no game no  clay  no wildfowling  but support  all the members who do, as to my shooting org,(SACS) sends me an email telling me that they  as a group have been in contact with the manufacturers  then after the manufactures statement SACS then send me another email stating they were under the impression  there had been contact what am i supposed  to think?

edit to add  71 years  old dont think i have 5 years left so  i have enough lead carts left to do me and leave the younger generation  to sort  out  a dwindling  sport/hobby/pastime

My remark about the thread highlighting division wasn’t aimed at you auld yin and I can understand how the way the organisations have dealt with this has brought about opposing views ,but some of the rhetoric Is extreme .One example was the guy who doesn’t release foxes deer pigeon or rabbits but has plenty to say about restricting pheasant shooting  .As Lancer425 says ,to many ,shooting is a way of life and the social side of game shooting whether it’s as guns ,beaters or pickers up makes winter worth looking forward to for many

i know we’re having to move ahead but in doing so we don’t want to be losing more than we have to and the absence of old English Irish and Scottish guns in the field would be a big loss to me as would the loss of any shooters compelled to give up by the changes that maybe heading our way.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Konor
Addition

[grahamch]

This thread is going in ever decreasing circles. Is it time to close comments on it? 

[Konor]

5 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Sorry konor. I do not see it that way at all.  I think it has been a good advert for shooting. It has showed that the vast majority of shooters are either prepared for change or are at least interested in the options available to them. Many have asked questions and been given answers, to go away with and act upon in due course.  I think if anything a good number of the the die hards who were  non lead sceptics at first. Are looking at this in a different light  now.

  Game shooting is good for the country and its countryside, always has been always will be, its shaped out country to some extent. We owe it for providing safe well managed habitat, effective predator and pest control and jobs and incomes both in and outside the shooting community. .Game shooting is essential.

 Right down to the releasing of birds into land that in many cases would be just farmed, has a wealth of habitat for all species to thrive in not just the game birds who we are simply releasing and growing them on in these areas until we decide to harvest them.

  As for the lack of support for our shooting organisations, on the face if it yes, but this is typical knee jerk reactions from a stubborn hardcore of our community.   I think as more is known of the exact details of all this attitudes could well change with regards the actions of the shooting organisations. 

Regarding Coastal wildfowlers shooting Lead. I must be naive then because i really do not see it .  I am in a few clubs well known mix with a lot of dedicated wildfowlers , visit their homes reloading rooms in communication via social media facebook and text. its hard to hide closet lead use in such circles. It really is.

 Most spend a great deal of their time fooling with steel and other shot types. swapping info showing patterns and that is just like now in the off season.

 Not saying it couldn’t happen, but i do not see it has being measurable its so small. You can not realistically get away with this . Most wildfowlers know non tox inside out, there would be a wad they found that triggered a shadow of doubt, other things will fit that Super XX case that viscerene wrap. straight out of a XX Winchester. That pink knocked out the federal premier case coupled with the Pink federal pattern driver in the creek. NO! possible but its just not happening certainly in big percentages. Its how it is. And put it this way if ought they are history way too much to lose most value their reputation much more than this.  Most wildfowlers are seriously addicted to wildfowling they can not just move on to something else, they have to stay compliant to retain this way of life. . 

Pigeon watch makes up a small part of the shooting community and the contributors to this thread are a small part of Pigeon watch so I would be wary of drawing too many conclusions from such a small sample of shooters. I do think though that the range of opinions expressed  will reflect a polarisation of opinion in general.

I was brought up on the Solway side and have shot it for nearly fifty years I know a few wildfowlers who hand load I know far more who don’t and have no desire to. Going to the shore with a ten bore for geese or flighting wigeon under the moon with a light twelve has been the extent of my fowling a little over a long period of time. Like many I have no interest in working up loads or investing the time and money to do so but I do have a respect for those who do and share their findings and enthusiasm with others..

I think we should bear in mind that we all have far more in common than divides us, that appeasement is a poor strategy and that the anti fieldsports supporters will only be happy when there is no shooting of wildlife whatsoever no matter the consequences. It’s us and them and I’m with us.

19 minutes ago, grahamch said:

This thread is going in ever decreasing circles. Is it time to close comments on it? 

I’m not a big fan of censorship

[motty]

9 hours ago, AULD YIN said:

We in this country  (SCOTLAND ) can shoot ducks legally with lead ,another point you got wrong,why not give us facts instead of  your opinion of facts,dont know who your trying to convince with all your havering about ducks being turned in with lead shot causing this fiasco

He didn't get it wrong, though!

[Pushandpull]

The current restrictions on lead shot use are not exactly "civil law". They were put in place by Statutory Instrument, so did not go through Parliament as a piece of primary legislation. Because this is a devolved issue, the regulations north of the border are different. To be brutally honest, the Scottish regulations allow a lot of wriggle room, such as folk shooting on the shore but saying that their shot will land on dry land. But that's the way it is. The situation is England and Wales is more clear cut, but also illogical at times.

It's quite easy to Google the details but take an aspirin first.