Lead ban & BASC

[rbrowning2]

Question you are using a gun that is not steel proofed and the worst happens for what ever reason and somebody gets injured and they go legal what defence would you have in court for using cartridges the gun was never designed or proofed for?

will the insurance companies pay up or run a mile?

 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Question you are using a gun that is not steel proofed and the worst happens for what ever reason and somebody gets injured and they go legal what defence would you have in court for using cartridges the gun was never designed or proofed for?

will the insurance companies pay up or run a mile?

 

That is a VERY good question.  (And one I have always raised when various (often Americans) claim is fine to shoot 2 3/4 cases in 2 1/2 chambers)  It is also relevant because there is currently no steel cartridge available in 2 1/2" as far as I know.  The other (e.g. bismuth) alternatives are (for me anyway virtually prohibitively) expensive.

[wymberley]

32 minutes ago, arjimlad said:

Absolutely, if we sit here with our heads up our backsides in our own little worlds, thinking that our organisations stand a chance of successfully arguing against phasing out lead, or phasing out non-recyclable single use plastics, then we will have nothing to shoot & nothing to shoot with when a ban comes in.

This statement shows foresight by the strongest shooting organisations in calling on us and manufacturers to work harder to provide affordable viable alternatives. The biodegradable wad cup is a huge step in the right direction. Economies of scale will kick in when we have critical mass buying these products, which means that we have to be open minded about alternatives & use them wherever possible.

I expect to have to open up a choke barrel to use some non HP steel in my SBS, and stick with the more modern guns for the HP stuff. I'd welcome better facilities to recycle cartridge cases.

If enough of us are clamouring for these products them someone will fill the gap in the market - and I don't see our main cartridge companies failing to grasp the opportunities. 

Don't you? Why do you think that the vast majority of our UK shotgun manufacturing base has disappeared and the cartridge loaders are facing increasing competition from overseas? History always repeats itself and they failed to grasp or see the need for investment 70 odd years ago.

[captainhastings]

Just ordered my moderator that wont take steel. Hopefully get a few years yet

[lancer425]

It is like being in a time warp, we heard all this when it came into fowling 20 years ago.  Most guns with steel barrels not Damascus can handle normal steel.  just buy it like you do lead and go and use it. Leave your chokes alone, touch nothing.  Do your research just wade through the wildfowling section on here, you will be able to work out what’s involved re proof etc from threads and pinned info on there.

As a starter for 10, to get you going on steel. Get your Miroku/ beretta SP/ Rizini / baikal/ zoli / zabala/ just about anything with 70mm chambers.

Go into a local gunshop, and ask for a box of Gamebore supper steel 32 gram in 4s if they only got 5s or 3s buy them anyway. go out and shoot pigeons with that box of cartridges .  Only reason i say gb supper steel is they are most shops and though not the best work ok.   If you can clean kill pigeons with lead 6s or 7s then you will still be doing the same with that box of steel. if your crippling missing etc sort your act out dont blame the ammo.

15 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is a VERY good question.  (And one I have always raised when various (often Americans) claim is fine to shoot 2 3/4 cases in 2 1/2 chambers)  It is also relevant because there is currently no steel cartridge available in 2 1/2" as far as I know.  The other (e.g. bismuth) alternatives are (for me anyway virtually prohibitively) expensive.

 Perhaps no 2.5 inch right now but that will change, and reload is always an option.

[lancer425]

Many years as you want on bismuth or copper. Bismuth is Under £20 a kilo now in ingot. Just drop it exactly like lead its easy in sizes up to 4s , bigger only of concern to wildfowlewers generally are harder to make DIY.

Steel is not the problem its the plastic wads steel needs thats to complication, .

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, anyone know who will be the UK importer of these Armusa greenshot cartridges or RFDs/ clay shooting clubs/ started to sell these, not on Just Carts web site yet, i did find a clay forum member buying some from his local club, £185 per 1000, cheers

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Perhaps no 2.5 inch right now but that will change, and reload is always an option.

I hope so, but I think the possible problem is that there is insufficient room in a 2 1/2" case to get a normal load (weight) of steel.  An ouunce of steel is much larger in bulk (volume) than an ounce of lead.  For clays I'd be quite happy with 3/4 oz (which I use now in lead), but I doubt it would be any use at all for game.

 

[Papercase]

Personally I think it's a brave move from BASC and GWCT. - I also think it is the correct one.

Remember this isn't just BASC it's all of the shooting organisations- for too long we've been on the back foot playing a rear guard action for our conservative ways. It's getting to the point where we either evolve or die - my best pheasant gun isn't superior steel proof however from what I understand from a number of sources is that these new cartridge shot cup technology which a number of manufacturers are or have developed work in non-steel proof guns. Yes my old favourite .410 Webley might be resigned to the wall or clay ground but I'd rather that than loose it all.

There is no new science here - the writing has been on the walls for years  and there is no good news in terms of lead - it is a poison regardless of if you've been eating it for 100 years and feel fine.

Also cartridge manufacturers are set to be hit hugely by this - years of product development down the swanny I don't think it's some move for them to score more monies.

BASC et al have fought tooth and nail to stop it as it has been the default position to resist change. Now they can concentrate on licences etc. 

To those scabs who think they're being sold down the river - wildfowlers take some incredible shots at high birds with steel and have for years often with old pre super steel guns.

Evolve or die. Simple.

 

 

[Smokersmith]

Will BASC be encouraging Eley to make their eco-wad available to reloaders?

[lancer425]

21 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Don't you? Why do you think that the vast majority of our UK shotgun manufacturing base has disappeared and the cartridge loaders are facing increasing competition from overseas? History always repeats itself and they failed to grasp or see the need for investment 70 odd years ago.

We have hull gamebore proper and Maxan/ rio/ eley hawk. Lyalvale. Proper ? I

 Proper do not do a steel load i know about up to now. If that changes we will see. but all the others are steel ammo producers and will just step that side up running down the lead side. Rio already marketing bismuth as do others so its just a case of beginning the transition from lead. I dont see a problem, they all got years of waterfowl ammo experience to build off and add more upcoming research it will only prove beneficial to the new ammo available in the future.

[johnphilip]

Do birds not visit clayground?????

[lancer425]

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I hope so, but I think the possible problem is that there is insufficient room in a 2 1/2" case to get a normal load (weight) of steel.  An ouunce of steel is much larger in bulk (volume) than an ounce of lead.  For clays I'd be quite happy with 3/4 oz (which I use now in lead), but I doubt it would be any use at all for game.

 

not really. might strugle with the more bulky powders, but typica;l modern powders are ecconomical on room/ casr volume compared to say the types of powder from the days of 2.5 inch "like nobel 60/80/ 82 etc" now they were bulky .

Remember steel has no cushion section required, and any steel wads which have a supper short cush section are there to help them in 70mm cases etc to achieve a good crimp. you could get say a TPS or B&P 35 wad and cut them down so you could get max shot volume and not interfere with the crimp closure. And of course RTO with frangible top disk / card. would give a couple more grams perhaps.  RTO in commercial ammo is common, and it could well be used. I think if i had a 2.5 inch i would reload, but i reload most of the time regardless.

 

[wymberley]

5 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

We have hull gamebore proper and Maxan/ rio/ eley hawk. Lyalvale. Proper ? I

 Proper do not do a steel load i know about up to now. If that changes we will see. but all the others are steel ammo producers and will just step that side up running down the lead side. Rio already marketing bismuth as do others so its just a case of beginning the transition from lead. I dont see a problem, they all got years of waterfowl ammo experience to build off and add more upcoming research it will only prove beneficial to the new ammo available in the future.

You quoted me, but did you have the courtesy to read what I said first? Yes, we have those makers - and more - so are you denying that our makers aren't facing increasing competition from overseas? You could just ask yourself who owns some of those that you mention.

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

Do birds not visit clayground?????

Not if they have any sense!

My local clay ground doesn't (currently) allow steel (possibly due to ricochet risk?)

Edited February 24, 2020 by JohnfromUK

[lancer425]

5 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

Do birds not visit clayground?????

Perhaps, but i think the idea is more about the option of claygrounds perhaps using lead shot cleaning machines to reclaim the lead shot cleaning up their act that way, with the reclaimed shot low carbon foot print etc etc.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

not really. might strugle with the more bulky powders, but typica;l modern powders are ecconomical on room/ casr volume compared to say the types of powder from the days of 2.5 inch "like nobel 60/80/ 82 etc" now they were bulky .

Remember steel has no cushion section required, and any steel wads which have a supper short cush section are there to help them in 70mm cases etc to achieve a good crimp. you could get say a TPS or B&P 35 wad and cut them down so you could get max shot volume and not interfere with the crimp closure. And of course RTO with frangible top disk / card. would give a couple more grams perhaps.  RTO in commercial ammo is common, and it could well be used. I think if i had a 2.5 inch i would reload, but i reload most of the time regardless.

 

OK, thanks.  I don't currently reload and hope that something suitable comes along off the shelf.  I'm willing (not happy but willing) to stick to 2 3/4" if I have to (in my AyA), but it seems sad that if no 2 1/2" solution is found/made, many many historic and highly serviceable older English guns will need to be retired - or confined to clays.  Currently I very occasionally attend a drive where there are duck, and so use my AyA with (2 3/4) bismuth there, but bismuth is currently just too expensive for regular use.

[PeterHenry]

If anyone wants a good example of sour grapes or stolen thunder, I would refer them to the blog of one Mark Avery

[lancer425]

16 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Will BASC be encouraging Eley to make their eco-wad available to reloaders?

Hope so i would use them in a heartbeat and i am sure you would. Most wildfowlers are about the environment, and i am sure game shooters are just the same, they just lack knowledge and need a bit of a shove to get them out of their dirty habit. I remember i had to chastise my brother to stop that filthy smoking habit he had too. it happens but its for the greater vgood and aids long term survival in both instances.

[clangerman]

18 minutes ago, Papercase said:

Personally I think it's a brave move from BASC and GWCT. - I also think it is the correct one.

Remember this isn't just BASC it's all of the shooting organisations- for too long we've been on the back foot playing a rear guard action for our conservative ways. It's getting to the point where we either evolve or die - my best pheasant gun isn't superior steel proof however from what I understand from a number of sources is that these new cartridge shot cup technology which a number of manufacturers are or have developed work in non-steel proof guns. Yes my old favourite .410 Webley might be resigned to the wall or clay ground but I'd rather that than loose it all.

There is no new science here - the writing has been on the walls for years  and there is no good news in terms of lead - it is a poison regardless of if you've been eating it for 100 years and feel fine.

Also cartridge manufacturers are set to be hit hugely by this - years of product development down the swanny I don't think it's some move for them to score more monies.

BASC et al have fought tooth and nail to stop it as it has been the default position to resist change. Now they can concentrate on licences etc. 

To those scabs who think they're being sold down the river - wildfowlers take some incredible shots at high birds with steel and have for years often with old pre super steel guns.

Evolve or die. Simple.

 

 

just because people do not like shooting organisations pulling their trousers down for the opposition it does not make them a scab the only scabs in this are the shooting organisations they sold people out not the shooters 

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, PeterHenry said:

If anyone wants a good example of sour grapes or stolen thunder, I would refer them to the blog of one Mark Avery

Not seen it have we stolen his march by any chance. 😀

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, lancer425 said:

Not seen it have we stolen his march by any chance. 😀

Link: https://markavery.info/2020/02/24/news-shooting-organisations-bow-to-the-inevitable-on-lead/

[wymberley]

3 hours ago, wymberley said:

Spot on. If this does happen - and we should know shortly - then we're going to be fighting off the back foot and retreating to the ropes understanding how Wilder felt knowing that the big punches from Fury which will finish us are just about to land and there's nothing we can do about it.

Must admit I didn't see this coming with regard to the involvement of all/most of the organisations. I would imagine that the lions/donkeys lot are ready and waiting to discredit those who wish to make a valid criticism by their usual means.

Have to confess that it was more to do with ongoing availability, but fortunately I've already stocked up with sufficient ammunition to see me out figuring that I've probably just got one more certificates renewal before I pack it all in.

EDIT: Oops, just seen it, scrub the "if" bit.

Here's another one. Different though, now we're "scabs".

[Petay]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

Perhaps, but i think the idea is more about the option of claygrounds perhaps using lead shot cleaning machines to reclaim the lead shot cleaning up their act that way, with the reclaimed shot low carbon foot print etc etc.

Was at AGL a couple of weeks ago and wasn't until my eyes zoned in that I realised that what I thought was gravel around the stands and pathways was actually shot, imagine tons of it. Interesting to see how it could be cleaned up.

The bans been coming for years and although it may be starting with live quarry shooting it will spread to Clay's and other target rifle disciplines. I imagine rimmy shooters and air rifle shooters will have it worse in someways as rifled barrels are already picky with ammo and generally non lead alternatives don't group consistently as well as lacking punch down range. 

Plastic bans I'm all for so maybe this will increase development of eco wads further and bring the price down. 

Perhaps not communicated well by BASC but I suspect they know they need to pick their battles and this is probably one that's just not worth having - they'd loose the plastic argument in a heartbeat and their is no debating lead is toxic so would not take much to turn opinion against it.

 

[wymberley]

26 minutes ago, Papercase said:

Personally I think it's a brave move from BASC and GWCT. - I also think it is the correct one.

Remember this isn't just BASC it's all of the shooting organisations- for too long we've been on the back foot playing a rear guard action for our conservative ways. It's getting to the point where we either evolve or die - my best pheasant gun isn't superior steel proof however from what I understand from a number of sources is that these new cartridge shot cup technology which a number of manufacturers are or have developed work in non-steel proof guns. Yes my old favourite .410 Webley might be resigned to the wall or clay ground but I'd rather that than loose it all.

There is no new science here - the writing has been on the walls for years  and there is no good news in terms of lead - it is a poison regardless of if you've been eating it for 100 years and feel fine.

Also cartridge manufacturers are set to be hit hugely by this - years of product development down the swanny I don't think it's some move for them to score more monies.

BASC et al have fought tooth and nail to stop it as it has been the default position to resist change. Now they can concentrate on licences etc. 

To those scabs who think they're being sold down the river - wildfowlers take some incredible shots at high birds with steel and have for years often with old pre super steel guns.

Evolve or die. Simple.

 

 

Here we go.