Lead ban & BASC

[Terry2016]

9 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

To reply here is to guess. There has been lots of guessing on this thread on this subject.   Lots going on in Europe  and across the world, not all of it common knowledge and some of it totaly behind the scenes, we are in a quite comfortable place right now with our shooting orgs suggesting this voluntary transition period ban, its giving us time, and i think we need time right now.  

I think the orgs have been quite clever. nothings changed in law, yet we are seeing to be doing. This gives us the high ground. Its infuriating the antis and in my book thats always a good thing.

👍

[lancer425]

8 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Agreed, I am sure they will. 

Definitlty a step in the right direction for us as this will future proof shooting.

Look as S&B they try all sorts of stuff other cartridge firms would never try, the copoper/ steel hybrid they did couple of years ago, never accepted but performed well. Rotweil liked it enough to do a copper shot load or two as well.

And RC and their steel loads seem in my experience to pattern better than most other factory loads i have used and thats in nearly everything i have put them through. I have not heard of anything myself, but i dare say the other wad firms will allready be working on a viable alternative to plaswads. They must know the writing is on the wall some years ago, i think we will see stuff become available from . the scandinavian wad companies this next few months. .

[Dave-G]

At the risk of barking up the wrong tree again - its only a few months ago that the shooting and game industries were desperately seeking a way to stop throwing away game: Now they may have found a major buyer for game if its not been shot with lead...

Does 'danged if they do and danged if they don't' come to mind?

[Terry2016]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

Look as S&B they try all sorts of stuff other cartridge firms would never try, the copoper/ steel hybrid they did couple of years ago, never accepted but performed well. Rotweil liked it enough to do a copper shot load or two as well.

And RC and their steel loads seem in my experience to pattern better than most other factory loads i have used and thats in nearly everything i have put them through. I have not heard of anything myself, but i dare say the other wad firms will allready be working on a viable alternative to plaswads. They must know the writing is on the wall some years ago, i think we will see stuff become available from . the scandinavian wad companies this next few months. .

This is the thing, if the orgs had not taken this step then others would still be dragging their heels.. 

Maybe thats why Gamebore are so upset ? maybe they wanted to dominate the market before anyone else got a chance..... 

As i understand it 

Eley, Gamebore, Joker, Rio and Bio Ammo all already have biodegradable non toxic. 

I love RC cartridges so hoping they jump on board.. 

I understand small gauges and 2.5 inch are on the way..... as are 3" and 3.5" 

[clangerman]

3 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

At the risk of barking up the wrong tree again - its only a few months ago that the shooting and game industries were desperately seeking a way to stop throwing away game: Now they may have found a major buyer for game if its not been shot with lead...

Does 'danged if they do and danged if they don't' come to mind?

don’t believe the hype my friend if either of my large shoots even thought this so called big rush to eat game is coming they would be putting extra birds down to take advantage of it come this season we will have the same piles of birds we have with lead because the public have been convinced we kill for fun so they won’t touch game what ever we fire at it 

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, Dave-G said:

At the risk of barking up the wrong tree again - its only a few months ago that the shooting and game industries were desperately seeking a way to stop throwing away game: Now they may have found a major buyer for game if its not been shot with lead...

Does 'danged if they do and danged if they don't' come to mind?

Exactly and its again taken the heat off shooting. Only thing i am a bit scetchey about is the plaswad issue but going back to guess work. PERHAPS they had to include it, because they were in some frame or some groups sights. We don’t know yet and who knows or cares. it could be in our interests right now if we did not know. I am good with this. AND its obvious its pushing change . I suspect the cartridge companies will be hugging and kissing with BASC and the other orgs before much longer, they are just little prima donas they want it all their own way. Its like this HUL gamebore ans express get your act together lads or some other outfits will sreal your thunder, and remember we are opening up new trade deals right now, and with countries. Not sure whats going on in ausie but the old olin works got into trouble not sure if winchester still produce there, and New Zealand Yes Thats right New zealand . they got Falcon cartridges, not sure these days if they are on this non tox thing, now would that not be a turn up for the book if a little mob like falcon came up with something good.

[Newbie to this]

13 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Consult the members? why should they do that  ?  you join BASC for insurance and technical support and to know you are supporting an organisation that fight tp protect shooting for the future. 

BASC is set up as an association they have a member elected council to represent the views of the membership.  they do not consult the membership on the future of shooting or decisions they are going to take. 

I think Brexit has gone to everyones head ..everyone is aloud a vote ...  these organisations are not set up like that and never will be, nothing would ever get done.. 

 

 

Maybe because without their members they are nothing.

How can you say they represent the membership's view, if they fail to find out what that view is!

Were this council elected on a promise of a voluntary ban  I think not.

Bringing Brexit into it doesn't add more weight.

[lancer425]

10 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

This is the thing, if the orgs had not taken this step then others would still be dragging their heels.. 

Maybe thats why Gamebore are so upset ? maybe they wanted to dominate the market before anyone else got a chance..... 

As i understand it 

Eley, Gamebore, Joker, Rio and Bio Ammo all already have biodegradable non toxic. 

I love RC cartridges so hoping they jump on board.. 

I understand small gauges and 2.5 inch are on the way..... as are 3" and 3.5" 

Exactly And look how RC perform i mean come on nothing Gamebore do at the price point gets anywhere near RC  the sipe 32s are incredible in my opinion.

[Newbie to this]

17 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

At the risk of barking up the wrong tree again - its only a few months ago that the shooting and game industries were desperately seeking a way to stop throwing away game: Now they may have found a major buyer for game if its not been shot with lead...

Does 'danged if they do and danged if they don't' come to mind?

Then why not just bring in a non-lead policy on shoots that wish to sell their shot quarry.

Make it law, no quarry shot with lead to be sold for human consumption. Job done.

But what this fiasco has done, is no doubt started the end of lead ammunition altogether.

Of course this is just my opinion and could be wrong.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Newbie to this

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

Then why not just bring in a non-lead policy on shoots that wish to sell their shot quarry.

Make it law, no quarry shot with lead to be sold for human consumption. Job done.

But what this fiasco has done, is no doubt started the end of lead ammunition altogether. Of course this is just my opinion and could be wrong.

Ahh well you see🤭

law = compensation for guns made obsolete by the law 

voluntary and transition = you’re on your own and get sod all 

although I could be wrong too 🤔

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Then why not just bring in a non-lead policy on shoots that wish to sell their shot quarry.

Make it law, no quarry shot with lead to be sold for human consumption. Job done.

But what this fiasco has done, is no doubt started the end of lead ammunition altogether. Of course this is just my opinion and could be wrong.

BECAUSE THE DUCK SHOOTERS OF THE GAME SHOOTING WORLD LIED THEY BANGED DUCKS FULL OF LEAD IN GAME DEALERS YEAR ON YEAR DESPITE WARNINGS. They do not trust the game shooters on bit, and i really do not blame them. you can not pull off a stunt like that year after year despite warnings to comply.  they broke the law. And LIED TOO. Deceived technical sold something they should not have what is to trust when you are dealing with a bunch of criminals like this.

[Terry2016]

11 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Maybe because without their members they are nothing.

How can you say they represent the membership's view, if they fail to find out what that view is!

Were this council elected on a promise of a voluntary ban  I think not.

Bringing Brexit into it doesn't add more weight.

Without the members? so you joined BASC so you could vote on the decisions they make? and where on earth did you get that from ?

The BASC council were consulted.  These are the people that were voted in by members to represent them.  if you think they are going to come to all of the members every time a decision is made well thats just funny ... laughable.. lets not forget 9 organisations agree this is the way forwards ,,.  but you think they should ask the membership .... 

so CA should ask their members and NGO theirs and so on ... that is laughable especially as it is voluntary in other words you do not have to do it... 

[andrewluke]

33 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Consult the members? why should they do that  ?  you join BASC for insurance and technical support and to know you are supporting an organisation that fight tp protect shooting for the future. 

BASC is set up as an association they have a member elected council to represent the views of the membership.  they do not consult the membership on the future of shooting or decisions they are going to take. 

I think Brexit has gone to everyones head ..everyone is aloud a vote ...  these organisations are not set up like that and never will be, nothing would ever get done.. 

 

 

how does council know the views of their membership??

[lancer425]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Ahh well you see🤭

law = compensation for guns made obsolete by the law 

voluntary and transition = you’re on your own and get sod all 

although I could be wrong too 🤔

Ill say you could be wrong too. Never seen so much pistol gear crop up its like it started growing once the pistol ban came in. You went to bed at night got up in the morning and cupboards were overflowing with stuff people never eben knew they had.

[wymberley]

30 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Consult the members? why should they do that  ?  you join BASC for insurance and technical support and to know you are supporting an organisation that fight tp protect shooting for the future. 

BASC is set up as an association they have a member elected council to represent the views of the membership.  they do not consult the membership on the future of shooting or decisions they are going to take. 

I think Brexit has gone to everyones head ..everyone is aloud a vote ...  these organisations are not set up like that and never will be, nothing would ever get done.. 

 

 

I was with you all the way until your last paragraph when it all fell apart. Isn't this our Brexit - Lexit - and for this event a referendum was deemed appropriate in view of the gravity of the decision?

Quick, delete your last before anyone else sees it and be 100% correct.

[Old farrier]

5 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

BECAUSE THE DUCK SHOOTERS OF THE GAME SHOOTING WORLD LIED THEY BANGED DUCKS FULL OF LEAD IN GAME DEALERS YEAR ON YEAR DESPITE WARNINGS. They do not trust the game shooters on bit, and i really do not blame them. you can not pull off a stunt like that year after year despite warnings to comply.  they broke the law. And LIED TOO. Deceived technical sold something they should not have what is to trust when you are dealing with a bunch of criminals like this.

Sadly all the time clay cartridges In lead are available it will continue 

[Terry2016]

1 minute ago, andrewluke said:

how does council know the views of their membership??

How? they do not need to know the views....  they are the people you voted for .. and if you didn't then maybe next time you will . 

the whole purpose of council is to represent the members which is why they submit a biography for members to read .. then get voted. 

 

[Newbie to this]

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

BECAUSE THE DUCK SHOOTERS OF THE GAME SHOOTING WORLD LIED THEY BANGED DUCKS FULL OF LEAD IN GAME DEALERS YEAR ON YEAR DESPITE WARNINGS. They do not trust the game shooters on bit, and i really do not blame them. you can not pull off a stunt like that year after year despite warnings to comply.  they broke the law. And LIED TOO. Deceived technical sold something they should not have what is to trust when you are dealing with a bunch of criminals like this.

OK, I'll take your word for it.

My take on this is, the sale of game/wildfowl needs to be much more stringent with checks and traceability.

[Terry2016]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I was with you all the way until your last paragraph when it all fell apart. Isn't this our Brexit - Lexit - and for this event a referendum was deemed appropriate in view of the gravity of the decision?

Quick, delete your last before anyone else sees it and be 100% correct.

Our brexit ... no that is my point .. you don't need to vote.  you can choose to do it or do not 

it is not legislation it is voluntary 

[stagboy]

The padre has discovered that the soldiers have agreed to try non-lead ammo...

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by stagboy
typo

[Newbie to this]

19 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Without the members? so you joined BASC so you could vote on the decisions they make? and where on earth did you get that from ?

Where on Earth did you get that from?

19 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

The BASC council were consulted.  These are the people that were voted in by members to represent them.  if you think they are going to come to all of the members every time a decision is made well thats just funny ... laughable.. lets not forget 9 organisations agree this is the way forwards ,,.  but you think they should ask the membership .... 

You kind of missed the point. You stated that BASC have an elected council to represent the view of their members.

But if they don't know what that view is, how can they  

hence my statement about the council being elected (or NOT as the case maybe) on the grounds of a voluntary ban on lead and plastic.

Did the 9 organisations agree, I've seen convicting statements where some have said they were told things which appear to not be true 

The membership are their bread and butter, without them they are nothing.

That some can't see that is just funny... laughable

19 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

so CA should ask their members and NGO theirs and so on ... that is laughable especially as it is voluntary in other words you do not have to do it...

Absolutely. They all should have. They are after all the ones who pay the wages. At the very least they should have kept them informed.

13 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

it is not legislation it is voluntary 

For now!!!

Edited March 8, 2020 by Newbie to this

[wymberley]

7 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Our brexit ... no that is my point .. you don't need to vote.  you can choose to do it or do not 

it is not legislation it is voluntary 

Yep, I take your point, absolutely correct, but 52 pages and counting suggests that the foreseeable consequences of this action and not necessarily the action itself would have warranted such consideration for the membership.

[lancer425]

7 minutes ago, stagboy said:

The padre has discovered that the soldiers have agreed to try non-lead ammo...

 

 

 

[McSpredder]

58 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Consult the members? why should they do that  ?  .....  BASC is set up as an association they have a member elected council to represent the views of the membership.  they do not consult the membership on the future of shooting or decisions they are going to take.

You have hit the nail on the head.   They have a member elected council to represent the views of the membership, but they do not consult the membership.

They have no idea what my views might be, and have made not the slightest attempt to find out.   When seeking election, did any of those council members say "I want to see lead shot banned within five years"?

Edited March 8, 2020 by McSpredder

[Scully]

48 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Exactly And look how RC perform i mean come on nothing Gamebore do at the price point gets anywhere near RC  the sipe 32s are incredible in my opinion.

Yes, best cartridge out there in my opinion.