Pattern Test Report, April 2020, Pigeon Loads (Fiocchi, Gamebore, Eley)

[Anglo]

32 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Didn't mention it earlier, but the mobile plate is ingenious.

Good luck with the homogeneous pattern spread.

Your last query, the info comes from Burrard (pigeon size and and most other avian species) and the BASC pattern test.

When the 'not 3 hits on average (the USA version is as per BASC and 1 or 2 pellets striking the vitals) but each shot and 6 on average' kicked off, it was the Gaussian bell curve that kept us in business. If we stay with the 32g No 6 and pigeon and the even spread in 30" = 707 sq ins, 16 sq ins pigeon =44 pigeon x 6 = 264 pellets required over 303 (32g of 6s)  = 87% (sorry), well over Full but can do a little under 35 yards with Full. With the more usual Bell curve performance Full will give a central 20" effective performance at some 42 yards. Generally, it's only TC that throws any where near an even spread so it's horses for courses. A TC pattern at your limited range - limited by sufficient pellet count for smaller species. Or some choke giving an extended (but not by too much)range with a limited effective pattern area.

I have deliberately not mentioned the worth of the 6 strikes on average and the 95% performance as per BASC as that wou;ld be an opinion

Thanks for the compliment. It even has a solid wheel so it can't be punctured by shot.

This is a little bit hard to follow. To clarify, are you saying it should OR should not be be 3 hits each and 6 on average? Where it says TC do you mean true cylinder?

If I can't get solid data, I may just end up with a pigeon shape drawn on clear acetate sheet, which i then place over the pattern and judge it by eye.

 

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

 

would be good to see a picture of each cartridge type cut open to show the contents, powder, wad, shot.

I have found the eley 6 shot can be 6&1/2 and the Fiocchi 6 shot 5&1/2

 

I wouldn't fuss, its not one size up or down that caused such poor performance.

[wymberley]

11 hours ago, Anglo said:

Thanks for the compliment. It even has a solid wheel so it can't be punctured by shot.

This is a little bit hard to follow. To clarify, are you saying it should OR should not be be 3 hits each and 6 on average? Where it says TC do you mean true cylinder?

If I can't get solid data, I may just end up with a pigeon shape drawn on clear acetate sheet, which i then place over the pattern and judge it by eye.

 

I wouldn't fuss, its not one size up or down that caused such poor performance.

Yep, TC is True Cylinder.

Yep, again. I didn't help by introducing something British into the equation. In the UK historically it's always been taken as 3 pellets for a kill. However, in order to achieve this, a higher figure is required on average to ensure that the lower figure is met as far as is possible taking into account scattergun performance with every shot. However, the American system adopted by BASC gives the same result and the need for 6 pellets on average. The UK version does have some advantage in one respect but is not relevant here.

With regards to your final point, if you do pick up Father's book have a look at Chap.5 Patterns and the 5" discs in particular. That may help.

[Anglo]

40 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Yep, TC is True Cylinder.

Yep, again. I didn't help by introducing something British into the equation. In the UK historically it's always been taken as 3 pellets for a kill. However, in order to achieve this, a higher figure is required on average to ensure that the lower figure is met as far as is possible taking into account scattergun performance with every shot. However, the American system adopted by BASC gives the same result and the need for 6 pellets on average. The UK version does have some advantage in one respect but is not relevant here.

With regards to your final point, if you do pick up Father's book have a look at Chap.5 Patterns and the 5" discs in particular. That may help.

Right, that makes sense now when I read back through it all.

There are three issues at hand:

1/ should it be 3 hits on each pigeon (uk), or 6 on average (usa/basc), or should the idea be scrapped

2/ Is the pattern assumed to be even which brings into question the vailidity of a 30 inch over a 20 inch circle

3/ the vital area of a pigeon in sq inch

Time for some opinion. What do you do personally when patterning in order to be satisfied that you've done your best?

Edited April 16, 2020 by Anglo

[wymberley]

47 minutes ago, Anglo said:

Right, that makes sense now when I read back through it all.

There are three issues at hand:

1/ should it be 3 hits on each pigeon (uk) or 6 on average (usa/basc)

2/ Is the pattern assumed to be even which brings into question the vailidity of a 30 inch over a 20 inch circle

3/ the vital area of a pigeon in sq inch

Time for some opinion. What do you do personally when patterning in order to be satisfied that you've done your best?

1/ The UK and USA ideas both require a 6 strike on average and both (obviously, having the same figure) give a theoretical 95% chance of a kill.

2/ It has been known since the late 19th century that shotgun patterns conform to the Gaussian bell shaped curve (Gen. Journey, Les Fusils De Chasse. This little titbit was largely unknown here until the ballistic studies towards the end of the 20th century both here and in the USA which improved our knowledge of lead shot performance so that better comparison with the newly emerging NTS could be made.

3/ I'm not absolutely sure about this (memory failing) but I think it is 3sq ins. I do know that the vulnerable area is as already given and as painstakingly measured by Burrard is 16.

I'm afraid that this now comes under the heading of do as I say not do as I do. There is a definitive answer on here which I can't find, but I will and then get back to you.

[Anglo]

Thank you.

On point 3, are you introducing a distinction between vital area and vunerable area?

I.e.

Vital area = 3 sq inch

Vunerable area = 16 sq inch

If you are, it creates a 4th question as to which should be used.

[wymberley]

As far as I'm aware, this is the only fully comprehensive pattern test detailed on PW:

https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/312152-first-attempt-at-pattern-testing/?tab=comments#comment-2843947

As you're going with the BASC procedure, it would make sense to go with the vital area.

As regards opinion; the author of the book I've mentioned uses the word "reasonable" in his definitive description of the effective range of a shotgun. As it comes under the heading of a diminishing return, I think that the 95% mentioned is too high. I don't know the 'ins and outs" of the American system but for the British, to maintain the required 3 strikes then reducing the average strike count to 5 from the 6 gives a more reasonable 90% to my mind. Theoretically, this would give some 40 yards with 1/2 choke or 45 yards with Full assuming everything is as previously mentioned and the 20" effective spread. I imagine that the USA system would be somewhat similar.

[Stonepark]

Anglo,

 

Well done first of all for attempting to conduct an honest evaluation to attempt to identify the best cartridge for you and your gun, the more people who do this the clearer it becomes to all that not every cartridge or choke is the same and it results in improved kills and therefore less wounding which we should all be trying to achieve.

For pigeon, I recommend 180 pellets of at least 0.8ftlbs in a 30 inch circle to give adequate pattern for clean kills being based both on experience,  experiment and calculated data.

You definitely need to count the number of pellets in a cut open cartridge and weigh the total load and also 50 pellets. (counting and weighing 50 pellets with a bit of calculator work is a lot easier than counting the entire load).

No 6 is a pheasant pellet but for the sake of simplicity a lot of game shots only want one cartridge and so settle on 32g No6 as an all rounder but old pigeon loads in No6 were 36g to get the pattern density but for a modern 28g to 32g loading, No 7 is the pigeon/partridge pellet to choose.

Clustered or welded shot is nearly always to do with soft lead rather than gas bypassing the wad. At a minimum 2% antimony is required to prevent welding/deformation at normal pressures up to 700bar, 3% is better.

Like you, in 12bore, i also like the 3/8 (Briley Light Mod or BLM) as a game getter as it averages well with decent distribution of pellets without shrinking the pattern spread too much.

I hope you are enjoying the experimentation.

If you wish to do a further comparison, try Gamebore Blue Diamond 28g 7.5 (technically a UK No 7) (or White Gold or Black Gold) all 5% antimony, Rio Target Load 28g 7.5 (UK nO 7) 2% antimony and another euro 7.5 cartridge such as Fiocchi.

 

[Farmboy91]

Out of all the cartridges I've got to test the 36g no7 Express is the one I really looking forward to seeing the results of. Although as I've only got one box and there's no prospect of getting anymore either it won't prove a great deal lol. I'm hoping for a fairly dense pattern @ 40ish yards, then I'll save them for a special occasion.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, have you ever tested the Jockers ?

[Anglo]

7 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, have you ever tested the Jockers ?

I assume you are referring to the clay cartridges I have for sale. I used a few in the early investigatory testing to check POA/POI making sure we were carrying out the method properly before moving onto cartridges under test. The patterns looked good, we didn't do a pellet count because I have never seen a suggested average pellet count for clays. I can assure you they smash clays at 40 yards.

[Anglo]

Thank you to wymberley and Stonepark for the detail you have offered.

I still have all the patterns. I think I need to go away and do some more reading & calculating before I draw any further conclusions.

I'm quite interested in the use of no7, spotted it here a few weeks ago: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/who-needs-bigger-balls-

The idea of using quality 'clay' loads seems to be a good one.

 

 

[wymberley]

42 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Anglo,

 

Well done first of all for attempting to conduct an honest evaluation to attempt to identify the best cartridge for you and your gun, the more people who do this the clearer it becomes to all that not every cartridge or choke is the same and it results in improved kills and therefore less wounding which we should all be trying to achieve.

For pigeon, I recommend 180 pellets of at least 0.8ftlbs in a 30 inch circle to give adequate pattern for clean kills being based both on experience,  experiment and calculated data.

You definitely need to count the number of pellets in a cut open cartridge and weigh the total load and also 50 pellets. (counting and weighing 50 pellets with a bit of calculator work is a lot easier than counting the entire load).

No 6 is a pheasant pellet but for the sake of simplicity a lot of game shots only want one cartridge and so settle on 32g No6 as an all rounder but old pigeon loads in No6 were 36g to get the pattern density but for a modern 28g to 32g loading, No 7 is the pigeon/partridge pellet to choose.

Clustered or welded shot is nearly always to do with soft lead rather than gas bypassing the wad. At a minimum 2% antimony is required to prevent welding/deformation at normal pressures up to 700bar, 3% is better.

Like you, in 12bore, i also like the 3/8 (Briley Light Mod or BLM) as a game getter as it averages well with decent distribution of pellets without shrinking the pattern spread too much.

I hope you are enjoying the experimentation.

If you wish to do a further comparison, try Gamebore Blue Diamond 28g 7.5 (technically a UK No 7) (or White Gold or Black Gold) all 5% antimony, Rio Target Load 28g 7.5 (UK nO 7) 2% antimony and another euro 7.5 cartridge such as Fiocchi.

 

Good post. Worth remembering perhaps for the balling that we're not talking .729" 12 bore here but on the way to 11 (being .751") being over bored at .742". Also the 0.8 ftlbs is the actual pellet energy. All calculations/measurements/tables relate to first passed the post figures. So unless you're going to rely on hitting the target with the first couple of pellets, it may pay to cater for the energy in the main pattern bulk as that figure and when consulting the oracle use, say, 1.0 ftlbs.

[oldypigeonpopper]

30 minutes ago, Anglo said:

I assume you are referring to the clay cartridges I have for sale. I used a few in the early investigatory testing to check POA/POI making sure we were carrying out the method properly before moving onto cartridges under test. The patterns looked good, we didn't do a pellet count because I have never seen a suggested average pellet count for clays. I can assure you they smash clays at 40 yards.

hello, i have some yet to try in 7.5s and 6s but i do not worry much on patterns,

[wymberley]

25 minutes ago, Anglo said:

28 minutes ago, Anglo said:

Thank you to wymberley and Stonepark for the detail you have offered.

I still have all the patterns. I think I need to go away and do some more reading & calculating before I draw any further conclusions.

I'm quite interested in the use of no7, spotted it here a few weeks ago: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/who-needs-bigger-balls-

The idea of using quality 'clay' loads seems to be a good one.

 

 

You've got 5 years for sure - probably at least twice that - so go for it. Actually, regarding 7s you've not now got as much choice as previously. For years I used 6&1/2s but they've all but disappeared now. I then moved to 7s as the 32g of the 6&1/2s which were virtually Hobson's choice were getting to me because of my age. I then noticed that the previously available range of the 7s in game loading had almost dried up. They probably won't cycle in the Maxus, but if you have another perhaps lighter gun, then to complement Stonehouse's suggestions (I like the Blue Diamonds)you could try try Gamebore Super Game High Bird in 28g flavour. These are 2&1/2" (Maxus cycling), gentle on the shoulder and being slower this may well explain the good patterns.

 

 

 

 

[adzyvilla]

Great work and thanks for posting. A very thorough examination, and I look forward to your findings should you choose to test any different makes/loads. 

I have found the pl32s to be quite a clean killing cartridge on pigeons (certainly no worse than the eley pigeon hb they replaced), but mine were bought bulk a few years ago now, so maybe there has been an adverse change in the manufacturing process? I'm coming to the end of my stock so will need to buy again in a few months, so I may think twice about buying the fiocchis again based on your research. 

[Townie]

Really interesting read, thank you for posting. Different cartridges I know, but I’ve found the Fiocchi F3s to kill very well.

[Anglo]

31 minutes ago, adzyvilla said:

Great work and thanks for posting. A very thorough examination, and I look forward to your findings should you choose to test any different makes/loads. 

I have found the pl32s to be quite a clean killing cartridge on pigeons (certainly no worse than the eley pigeon hb they replaced), but mine were bought bulk a few years ago now, so maybe there has been an adverse change in the manufacturing process? I'm coming to the end of my stock so will need to buy again in a few months, so I may think twice about buying the fiocchis again based on your research. 

I strongly suggest buying a single box and testing it before committing to a great quantity. That goes for all brands.

[the hitman]

9 hours ago, Farmboy91 said:

Out of all the cartridges I've got to test the 36g no7 Express is the one I really looking forward to seeing the results of. Although as I've only got one box and there's no prospect of getting anymore either it won't prove a great deal lol. I'm hoping for a fairly dense pattern @ 40ish yards, then I'll save them for a special occasion.

36g no 7 would be a cracking pigeon load, however I cannot say that I have ever seen them for sale locally.

Who makes them ? 
 

Hitman 

[Stonepark]

8 minutes ago, the hitman said:

36g no 7 would be a cracking pigeon load, however I cannot say that I have ever seen them for sale locally.

Who makes them ? 
 

Hitman 

Express?

[the hitman]

6 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Express?

Sorry I meant any other maker 

[Farmboy91]

13 minutes ago, the hitman said:

36g no 7 would be a cracking pigeon load, however I cannot say that I have ever seen them for sale locally.

Who makes them ? 
 

Hitman 

Express, but the box I've got is an older design I believe. When I saw them there was no way I wasn't going to pick them up. Last box on the shelf, I was told they'd been got in especially for a customer but these had been left over. 

If you have a local suppliers who deals with express they might be able to get them, I'd imagine you'd have to order a slab minimum though.

 

1 minute ago, the hitman said:

Sorry I meant any other maker 

I've not seen English 7's anywhere let alone in a load that size.

[Anglo]

When I want to look for carts, i use the Just Cartridges website because you can filter for shot size etc and see different prices for what you want.

[wymberley]

9 hours ago, the hitman said:

36g no 7 would be a cracking pigeon load, however I cannot say that I have ever seen them for sale locally.

Who makes them ? 
 

Hitman 

They won't extend your range but will make it possible at the 45 yards using just 1/4 choke.

[matone]

10 hours ago, the hitman said:

36g no 7 would be a cracking pigeon load, however I cannot say that I have ever seen them for sale locally.

Who makes them ? 
 

Hitman 

They used to be loaded for Fitasc but the rules changed quite a few years ago. A local shop sold a lot off cheaply to pigeon shooters to get rid of them!!!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

But of course the question has to be asked;

Why such a large load?

I use 6, 6.5 or 7 for pigeons, but usually only 28 grammes, I have heavier shells that are kept for the corvids.