London Best Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: But of course the question has to be asked; Why such a large load? I use 6, 6.5 or 7 for pigeons, but usually only 28 grammes, I have heavier shells that are kept for the corvids. I think they are talking about steel loads?? May be wrong, of course. Incidentally, why do people seem to think corvids need heavy loads / big shot? I find they die very satisfactorily with 14 gram of 7’s from a 2 1/2 inch fourten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 I assume it is to avoid risk to their dogs, mine are big enough to pick a winged crow and keep its bill and claws out of reach of their eyes. If you head shoot any bird a few tiny pellets are more than enough. I have shot with clay load 9s and killed birds very cleanly, but it affords very little margin for error. Large heavy loads in a reasonable choke should either kill dead or miss completely (at sensible ranges). A light small load will kill cleanly if put in the right place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 1 hour ago, London Best said: I think they are talking about steel loads?? May be wrong, of course. Incidentally, why do people seem to think corvids need heavy loads / big shot? I find they die very satisfactorily with 14 gram of 7’s from a 2 1/2 inch fourten. Well I do like to shoot them at 70 Yds plus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Well I do like to shoot them at 70 Yds plus! Why so close? or are you not a very good shot 😗 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Why so close? or are you not a very good shot 😗 Still practicing, since I gave up shooting the hares at 700 yds with my rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Still practicing, since I gave up shooting the hares at 700 yds with my rifle. I know how you feel 😂 keep practicing and I’m sure you will get better and take the hare record 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Old farrier said: I know how you feel 😂 keep practicing and I’m sure you will get better and take the hare record 😂 No I am happy to let hat hare record stand! When we can get out again I will do my damdest to get a few corvids to fly past at 80, 90 or even a100yds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: No I am happy to let hat hare record stand! When we can get out again I will do my damdest to get a few corvids to fly past at 80, 90 or even a100yds. Although some would say............ id better not 😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmboy91 Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 Yeah yeah just you lot wait till I get my mini mobile gun with strike anywhere cooks matches. I'll show you long range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 Just now, Farmboy91 said: Yeah yeah just you lot wait till I get my mini mobile gun with strike anywhere cooks matches. I'll show you long range. Oh in that case can I bring my rarden out to play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmboy91 Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Oh in that case can I bring my rarden out to play? Hmm I don't know, don't want to rock the long range boat to much do we 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo Posted April 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2020 Research I’ve read the relevant sections of the books I have access too. I don’t have a copy of Burrard - The Modern Shotgun but the work is referenced in the books I do have. A big thank you to Stonepark for sharing is own extremely detailed shotgun ballistics spreadsheets with with me. I now better understand what I think wymberley was trying to put across: The BASC method I used is fundamentally the same an Burrard’s method, using figures supposedly supplied Roster (who is american). There will always we a Gaussian distribution; more pellets a central 20 inch circle than the outer 20-30 inch ring. Getting the area of the bird wrong ruins the calculation. The requirement for an average of 6 shots in each bird can result in an unreasonably high requirement for average pellet count, leading to the use of a tight choke all the time, which we know is daft because of what it does at close range. This method assumes an even the distribution of pellets across the 30 inch circle, which is also also daft. I now better understand what I think Stonepark was trying to put across: 7 shot provides typically provides enough energy for pigeon beyond up-to 40 yards & beyond, so why not take the advantage of a the higher number of pellets it a given load. That last point really makes me question all the present day norms manufacturers, writers and crack shots. Gough Thomas - Shotguns and Cartridges for Game and Clays In chapter 4 he explains the Burrard method. Note that half way down page 55 he criticises the method. In Chapter 5 under Critical Appraisal of Patterns, he briefly explains and refers to ‘a more convenient and reliable method’ of judging patterns derived from Oberfell and Thompson, given in his Gun Book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo Posted April 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2020 (edited) Continued Gough Thomas’s Gun Book We find the method referred to here On pages 160 to 164 with a simple experiment, he demonstrates that the Burrard method is not completely sound for the reasons we have already given. John Bridle – Shotgun Shooting Techniques & Technology Brindle explains the reality of the pellet distribution. On Page 204 he has something to say about the work of Burrard which is a lot less restrained than Thomas. My choice of Gun From what I have read about the pros/cons overbored barrels, the perceived benefits of lower recoil & better patterns are actually caused by a reduction in velocity, which can be achieved simply by using a slower cartridge. Its certainly not worth the major disadvantage of poor obtruation with certain fibre wads, leading to balling. I really like the Maxus I bought this year, its light, well built and the speed-load makes it so easy to use… I just wish Browning wouldn't offer only .742 overbore barrels on the majority of their guns. The same can be said for other manufacturers. My impressions I’ve really got the impression that my fathers & grandfathers generation had a better grasp on shotgun performance than my own generation. They had bores of nominal diameter, my father has always expressed to me that true cylinder to quarter choke produces better patterns than half choke and upwards, and 30 & 32 gram no7 loads sound more common back in his day. Today with my generation, overbore barrels are very common, its also common for people the use too much choke and then when they are not satisfied with performance they increase shot size and load – its not commonly understood that what we usually need is more pellets spread evenly. What am I going to do I think I shall re-evaluate the Eley patterns using the Oberfell & Thompson when I have time and go from there. I recognise the importance of choosing fibre wads carefully when using a overbored barrel. I’ve looked into 7 shot in 30 and 32 gram loads. Under £300 a thousand, the only option I have found is Lylavale Express Special Game 30g – £297 for Fibre Wad on Just Cartridges who tend to be little over priced anyway. Not cheap, but I’d like to try them if I can get a box. Allegedly, they are available in 32g too. As suggested, I'm also interested in Gamebore Super Game High Bird 28g and Gamebore Blue Diamond 28g. Edited April 18, 2020 by Anglo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 Well put and relevant to your needs. When you start to look to optimise steel with plastic wads the game changes again, and if you read about the Mossberg 935’s barrel you’ll see where extreme over boring comes into play. My last purchase was a 45 year old auto with 18.4 bore size, but that won’t be going fowling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo Posted April 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 hours ago, Smokersmith said: Well put and relevant to your needs. When you start to look to optimise steel with plastic wads the game changes again, and if you read about the Mossberg 935’s barrel you’ll see where extreme over boring comes into play. My last purchase was a 45 year old auto with 18.4 bore size, but that won’t be going fowling. Are you saying that overboring only starts to make sense when used with steel & plastic wads? Unfortunately, I'm moving away from plastic wads but realise it might become the norm if we all change to steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 Plastic wads are typically where overboard barrels come into their own ... be it lead or steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 Don't worry too much about Major Burrard's feelings as he was always up for a good scrap if someone disagreed with him - see Burrard/The field v Pollard/ the Country Life - where he (Burrard) considered Curchill and his XXVs to be useless. Major Pollard was in Churchill's corner. "I’ve really got the impression that my fathers & grandfathers generation had a better grasp on shotgun performance than my own generation." Yep. It is just unfortunate that they were fed the wrong information on which to base their findings. When post war shooting became more popular (more affordable) everybody and their granny burst into print and the same tables, graphs, figures and numbers appeared for several decades. Eventually, this was revised/revisited for the reason given earlier. Gough Thomas realised this as had Dr John Brindle. I was referred to Dr Brindle by Dr Roger Giblin and both of these two gentlemen were extremely helpful when I needed as much assistance as I could get. Sadly, both of them died when we really needed them. I have always thought that we don't really need to rely on others for our knowledge. (That said, I do appreciate thar a duplication of effort is a waste of resources.) The report by the BRL reflects that as ever we are perfectly capable of looking out for ourselves. Unfortunately this was government sponsored and was not widely circulated. Together with our home grown ballisticians, BASC should have been able to have preached the gospel - the new testament as it were. Anyone having doubts about this simply needs to sight: https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1382490/1/396689.pdf the author's name of which appears below that of Dr Roger Giblin in the Ballistic Research Laboratory report mentioned above. As it is, too many folk are stumbling around in the dark. We can ignore those who do so out of lack of interest, but more could be done to put the switch in a more accessible position for those who would have an interest and would benefit from the knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Rabbit Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 I bet some of you would have fun analysing these bad boys! Actually 2.5mm (6.5 shot). WR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisyrob1 Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, White Rabbit said: I bet some of you would have fun analysing these bad boys! Actually 2.5mm (6.5 shot). WR. Jeepers what make are they? Wonder what they were intend for? 535 bits in tht bad boy🤯 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Rabbit Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 minute ago, daisyrob1 said: Jeepers what make are they? Wonder what they were intend for? 535 bits in tht bad boy🤯 Cheddite. I assume they're intended for their domestic market. Shooting thrush's etc at range. WR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmboy91 Posted April 19, 2020 Report Share Posted April 19, 2020 5 hours ago, White Rabbit said: I bet some of you would have fun analysing these bad boys! Actually 2.5mm (6.5 shot). WR. Wouldn't mind a go with those myself to be honest. Anything to improve the odds my end 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted April 21, 2020 Report Share Posted April 21, 2020 I quite like no7 for decoying on a cylinder bore. Seems to perform well out to 40 yards, awkward to get hold of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 22, 2020 Report Share Posted April 22, 2020 16 hours ago, GingerCat said: I quite like no7 for decoying on a cylinder bore. Seems to perform well out to 40 yards, awkward to get hold of. Yep, not as easy as 'twas. Some continental clay 7&1/2s will equate to our 7s. If you prefer UK, then if you have 2&3/4" chambers the Gamebore Blue Diamond 7&1/2s ( in common with their diamond shot sizing) are 7s take some beating if they suit your gun. Similarly, 2&1/2" chambers are catered for by their Super Game High Bird offering. Although I'm OK and stocked up, I can see the latter option going the way of the Post Offices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted April 22, 2020 Report Share Posted April 22, 2020 I shoot No. 7 regularly from 2 1/2 chambered guns. Express Supreme Game. I never have any trouble getting hold of them and find them a superb cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 22, 2020 Report Share Posted April 22, 2020 52 minutes ago, London Best said: I shoot No. 7 regularly from 2 1/2 chambered guns. Express Supreme Game. I never have any trouble getting hold of them and find them a superb cartridge. Yep. I just avoided anything over the £300 mark. I can't answer for all of the offerings in 7s from Express, but having quite recently had to sort myself out all that I tried were quite handily coming in at 7&1/4s if you get my drift - c370/oz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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