Thanks Nigel for exposing French migrant assistance

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, Retsdon said:

If the government could find the money to pay 3/4 of the working population's wages for a couple of months this year,

The Government haven't 'found' any money, they have borrowed it, and it will be the Tax payer that has to pay it back.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Newbie to this

[Raja Clavata]

Now that he's got a bit more spare time on his hands perhaps Nige will go after the traffickers rather than constantly highlighting the people who are to some extent victims in all this...

[Scully]

I agree the traffickers need sorting, with extreme prejudice as the saying goes, but I can’t agree illegal immigrants are ‘victims’ by any extent. If you enter a country by any other means than a legal one, by definition you’re an ILLEGAL immigrant. 

[Dave-G]

The videos we have seen rather suggest France aids and abets trafficking.

[Raja Clavata]

Discussed this with a friend recently who then sent me a piece she posted back in 2016...

"These stories in the papers ignite conscience in some people and anger in others... However you feel about the country you live in (and it's not 'your country' or 'our country', it's merely the section of earth you happen to have been born in, you personally didn't make it, build it or in any meaningful way shape it and for the most part you are merely helping to steroy it).

I think people should consider how they would feel if it was your family, your brothers, sisters, children out there running scared with nowhere to live - regardless of the originating reason... If there was a fire behind you and an ocean in front of you which way would you go?

For all the people getting angry about the possibility of some people seeking refuge, I suggest that instead of being defensive about something that doesn't belong to you, that you try to consider how you would feel in their position... And I hope you never have to experience that!

The situation makes me personally want to go and help these people , humans, families. So today I once again update my UN volunteer profile in case I can be of assistance and continue to do so and I will continue to donate to charities that are assisting these people. 

I for one would rather help personally and be part of the solution..."

I suspect many on here might consider her part of the problem and I guess that's just the way it is.

10 hours ago, Scully said:

I agree the traffickers need sorting, with extreme prejudice as the saying goes, but I can’t agree illegal immigrants are ‘victims’ by any extent. If you enter a country by any other means than a legal one, by definition you’re an ILLEGAL immigrant. 

I agree that by being an illegal immigrant you have undertaken criminal activity but do you really think that a criminal cannot also be a victim, I mean across the board or do you only reserve that judgement for immigrants?

When the container full of vietnamese / chinese turned up in Essex last year, you didn't feel the people inside were victims of something horrific?

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Discussed this with a friend recently who then sent me a piece she posted back in 2016...

"These stories in the papers ignite conscience in some people and anger in others... However you feel about the country you live in (and it's not 'your country' or 'our country', it's merely the section of earth you happen to have been born in, you personally didn't make it, build it or in any meaningful way shape it and for the most part you are merely helping to steroy it).

I think people should consider how they would feel if it was your family, your brothers, sisters, children out there running scared with nowhere to live - regardless of the originating reason... If there was a fire behind you and an ocean in front of you which way would you go?

For all the people getting angry about the possibility of some people seeking refuge, I suggest that instead of being defensive about something that doesn't belong to you, that you try to consider how you would feel in their position... And I hope you never have to experience that!

The situation makes me personally want to go and help these people , humans, families. So today I once again update my UN volunteer profile in case I can be of assistance and continue to do so and I will continue to donate to charities that are assisting these people. 

I for one would rather help personally and be part of the solution..."

I suspect many on here might consider her part of the problem and I guess that's just the way it is.

I agree that by being an illegal immigrant you have undertaken criminal activity but do you really think that a criminal cannot also be a victim, I mean across the board or do you only reserve that judgement for immigrants?

When the container full of vietnamese / chinese turned up in Essex last year, you didn't feel the people inside were victims of something horrific?

I’ll get back to you later, just on my way out....some of us have to keep the economy going! 😀

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Scully said:

I’ll get back to you later, just on my way out....some of us have to keep the economy going! 😀

Indeed, my daily commute is to the bottom of the garden in my man cave. Displaced from the house since everyone else in the household is working / studying from home too...

[oowee]

On 01/06/2020 at 09:09, Newbie to this said:

The Government haven't 'found' any money, they have borrowed it, and it will be the Tax payer that has to pay it back.

Hopefully the government can work a little harder in finding some more tax payers amongst the self employed and small business owners to spread the cost a bit further. 

 

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Indeed, my daily commute is to the bottom of the garden in my man cave. Displaced from the house since everyone else in the household is working / studying from home too...

Our house has been turned into a gym this morning. Wife on the Turbo trainer on the south side and me on the the rower on the east. A quick coffee and wife will commute the ten steps to her office and I will drive out to the local farm. No sign of her town office opening up anytime soon 😞 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Got to make the best of any situation!

[johnphilip]

31 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Discussed this with a friend recently who then sent me a piece she posted back in 2016...

"These stories in the papers ignite conscience in some people and anger in others... However you feel about the country you live in (and it's not 'your country' or 'our country', it's merely the section of earth you happen to have been born in, you personally didn't make it, build it or in any meaningful way shape it and for the most part you are merely helping to steroy it).

I think people should consider how they would feel if it was your family, your brothers, sisters, children out there running scared with nowhere to live - regardless of the originating reason... If there was a fire behind you and an ocean in front of you which way would you go?

For all the people getting angry about the possibility of some people seeking refuge, I suggest that instead of being defensive about something that doesn't belong to you, that you try to consider how you would feel in their position... And I hope you never have to experience that!

The situation makes me personally want to go and help these people , humans, families. So today I once again update my UN volunteer profile in case I can be of assistance and continue to do so and I will continue to donate to charities that are assisting these people. 

I for one would rather help personally and be part of the solution..."

I suspect many on here might consider her part of the problem and I guess that's just the way it is.

I agree that by being an illegal immigrant you have undertaken criminal activity but do you really think that a criminal cannot also be a victim, I mean across the board or do you only reserve that judgement for immigrants?

When the container full of vietnamese / chinese turned up in Essex last year, you didn't feel the people inside were victims of something horrific?

Why do you keep posting stuff to get a reaction . Instead of spending a lot of time on here , trying to get people to turn to your way of thinking . Go out there and do something about the things you are concerned  about . . Think of this " you are only as good as your audience  " 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, oowee said:

Our house has been turned into a gym this morning. Wife on the Turbo trainer on the south side and me on the the rower on the east. A quick coffee and wife will commute the ten steps to her office and I will drive out to the local farm. No sign of her town office opening up anytime soon 😞 

At least your equipment is being used 👍

Just now, johnphilip said:

Why do you keep posting stuff to get a reaction . Instead of spending a lot of time on here , trying to get people to turn to your way of thinking . Go out there and do something about the things you are concerned  about . . Think of this " you are only as good as your audience  " 

Because I fail to accept you're all lost causes, but if I really can't convince you that you're not, then feel free to ignore me. No disrespect intended but it's impossible to discuss / debate with you as you constantly get the wrong end of the stick. Have a good day.

[johnphilip]

15 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

At least your equipment is being used 👍

Because I fail to accept you're all lost causes, but if I really can't convince you that you're not, then feel free to ignore me. No disrespect intended but it's impossible to discuss / debate with you as you constantly get the wrong end of the stick. Have a good day.

We are not lost causes , so you only want people to come around to your way of thinking .do you want to change the forum name at the same time  . 😀😎

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, johnphilip said:

We are not lost causes , so you only want people to come around to your way of thinking .do you want to change the forum name at the same time  . 😀😎

You've proved the point, again, about wrong end of the stick. There is a facility whereby you can choose to ignore certain posters "contribution", please feel free 👍

[johnphilip]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

You've proved the point, again, about wrong end of the stick. There is a facility whereby you can choose to ignore certain posters "contribution", please feel free 👍

I am only replying  to what you post.  You keep posting things to get a reaction . Were you not the one a few weeks ago who got the wrong end of the stick and accused me of something . I never said .

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, johnphilip said:

I am only replying  to what you post.  You keep posting things to get a reaction . Were you not the one a few weeks ago who got the wrong end of the stick and accused me of something . I never said .

You are entitled to your opinion and it is noted (re. the bold above).

Regarding the thing a few weeks ago, again, yet again, you are the one who got the wrong end of the stick - you endorsed a cowardly insult applied with double meaning and you weren't even aware you did it. I offered to give you the benefit of the doubt but you proceeded to try to school me on something I really did not need a lesson on, least of all from somebody like you. Now, please, give it a rest.

[johnphilip]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You are entitled to your opinion and it is noted (re. the bold above).

Regarding the thing a few weeks ago, again, yet again, you are the one who got the wrong end of the stick - you endorsed a cowardly insult applied with double meaning and you weren't even aware you did it. I offered to give you the benefit of the doubt but you proceeded to try to school me on something I really did not need a lesson on, least of all from somebody like you. Now, please, give it a rest.

And you were the one who sent me a private PM . To say you would apologise  in public . You ended up getting posts deleted .

[Raja Clavata]

1 minute ago, johnphilip said:

And you were the one who sent me a private PM . 

Yes, to try to diffuse the situation since you genuinely appeared to not appreciate what it was you had endorsed in the other thread.

2 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

To say you would apologise  in public . 

Again to diffuse the situation and exhibit some humility, at which point you went off on one suggesting I was a show-off.

3 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

You ended up getting posts deleted .

One post, on the original thread, in response to what I considered a cowardly insult.

Talking of deleted posts, the mods have already warned about taking issues across threads, how disruptive it is to harmony of the site / community and how grimly they view it.

So, with that in mind, I'm done with you and this. Feel free to have the final word here. 

Perhaps when you feel capable of "attacking" my views rather than my "persona", we can re-engage. Until then, please leave it.

[johnphilip]

Here is a quote  I gave you in a reply to a PM you sent me . Please read what my reply to you regarding you suggested  I said you were a show of . 

[treetree]

5 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Discussed this with a friend recently who then sent me a piece she posted back in 

However you feel about the country you live in (and it's not 'your country' or 'our country', it's merely the section of earth you happen to have been born in, you personally didn't make it, build it or in any meaningful way shape it and for the most part you are merely helping to steroy it). 

I disagree so strongly with this 'citizen of the world' argument, as if any person could just be dropped into any country and it would make no difference to their being, as it's just a patch of land you happen to occupy.

The nation state is the largest unit to which people are willing to work collaboratively and unselfishly. Our history, culture, landscape has shaped all of us, and forms the invisible ties which is just about still holding everything together.

It means something to be British, just as it means something equal but different to be French or German. 

What does she believe in, if not a nation state, some kind of supranational state, where we are all identikit units?

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, treetree said:

I disagree so strongly with this 'citizen of the world' argument, as if any person could just be dropped into any country and it would make no difference to their being, as it's just a patch of land you happen to occupy.

That may be your interpretation but I'm not sure that's actually fundamental to the notion of global citizenship, but it's not a subject that I claim to know much about.

The nation state is the largest unit to which people are willing to work collaboratively and unselfishly. Our history, culture, landscape has shaped all of us, and forms the invisible ties which is just about still holding everything together.

That sounds like a personal perspective to me, rather a definitive statement of established fact. 

It means something to be British, just as it means something equal but different to be French or German. 

I agree and that's just the point, it does mean something to be British, or whatever nationality and being a global citizen does not waive or denounce that fact, it just demotes it from being the primary factor of identification or meaning. What you seem to be promoting is that rather than being British meaning something, you actually mean everything. 

What does she believe in, if not a nation state, some kind of supranational state, where we are all identikit units?

I think she believes in global citizenship.

She might be wrong on this one, but she is right on a lot of things not least in the way she approaches life in the whole. 

[discobob]

On 16/06/2020 at 08:46, oowee said:

Hopefully the government can work a little harder in finding some more tax payers amongst the self employed and small business owners to spread the cost a bit further. 

I had an interesting proposal put to me about paying for people who have been furloughed which at first appearances would be a valid suggestion. This would be to leverage a tax onto the companies and employees (and self employed) who benefited from the various schemes put in place. A bit like Student Loans - with a minimum salary etc..

In regards to furlough we are 3 months in at (up to) £2500 so currently that is £7500 maximum but not everyone will be getting that (and then the element of that payment has already had tax and NI applied to it to reduce the amount)

I thought it was a good idea overall

[oowee]

48 minutes ago, discobob said:

I had an interesting proposal put to me about paying for people who have been furloughed which at first appearances would be a valid suggestion. This would be to leverage a tax onto the companies and employees (and self employed) who benefited from the various schemes put in place. A bit like Student Loans - with a minimum salary etc..

In regards to furlough we are 3 months in at (up to) £2500 so currently that is £7500 maximum but not everyone will be getting that (and then the element of that payment has already had tax and NI applied to it to reduce the amount)

I thought it was a good idea overall

I see where your coming from but the furlough scheme is there for everyones benefit. If you receive it or not it's keeping the whole economy more liquid so we should all pay for the benefit. I just hope pensioners, company owners and  the self employed do not escape. 

[johnphilip]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

I see where your coming from but the furlough scheme is there for everyones benefit. If you receive it or not it's keeping the whole economy more liquid so we should all pay for the benefit. I just hope pensioners, company owners and  the self employed do not escape. 

Escape what , I am a pensioner what are you expecting from me ??

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

Escape what , I am a pensioner what are you expecting from me ??

Escape from the tripple lock it's a nonsense policy.  Extra tax. All in it together and that should include those on a pension. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by oowee

[johnphilip]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

Escape from the tripple lock it's a nonsense policy.  Extra tax. All in it together and that should include those on a pension. 

I have paid my way many times over , you try living on a state pension  , I dont get any hand outs . I dont have enough to pay tax . You can go look somewere else .your getting nothing here .