Demonstrations in london

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

Just out of interest, what is ‘ the British way of life’?

Part (and a core part) of the British Way of life is (or at least should be) keeping protest peaceful, fair treatment of all regardless of race, background, etc., and applying change through democratic means.  Most apply the above and a small minority want to bully the majority.  They must not be allowed to get their way through bullying and violence.

I appreciate this is not the first time we have seen violent protests - and suspect those initiating the violence have a common thread - and not the thread the peaceful majority are following.

[Mice!]

10 minutes ago, Scully said:

Just out of interest, what is ‘ the British way of life’?

For me it would be the country I grew up in, lots of things change slowly but not because of violent protests. 

 

[mossy835]

18 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

That is close to the worst thing I have ever seen. 

 

 

 

and the cop got away with it, what did the boy do wrong.

[grrclark]

8 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I don't expect everyone to agree with everything,  no one ever does, for me it points out how much is done to include everyone that lives in this country.

The point is that in a fully inclusive society we don't need tokens or a metaphorical pat on the head to say 'you're really one of us, have a day on us to fly your flags to prove it'.

The reason there isn't a white history month, or a white pride day or a Miss White GB is because we don't need it.  Everything in our society is geared up around us 'white Brits' and that is entirely natural given that the UK stems from being a predominantly white, Christian country.  However we are no longer that, as much as many may lament that fact.

That is what these protests are fundamentally about, setting the thuggery apart, is that very many people in the UK do not feel that society encompasses them as it should and it is not necessarily about race.

The majority of Scottish nationalists are white Christian, but very many of them think UK society is unfair, exclusionary and divisive and that is why much of the rhetoric of those campaigning for Independence is that they see that as the vessel to enable change.  That may not be the root of the SNP cause, but those that do believe there is unfairness think that is a catalyst to make change for the better.  Likewise with the current protests, the heart of the BLM movement stand for something different, but so many see that as a catalyst to make change too.

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

Part (and a core part) of the British Way of life is (or at least should be) keeping protest peaceful, fair treatment of all regardless of race, background, etc., and applying change through democratic means.  Most apply the above and a small minority want to bully the majority.  They must not be allowed to get their way through bullying and violence.

I appreciate this is not the first time we have seen violent protests - and suspect those initiating the violence have a common thread - and not the thread the peaceful majority are following.

All throughout British history we have evolved because people who felt oppressed stood up and did something against it and it has always come with disruption.  The British way of life used to have signs in windows saying No blacks, No Irish.  The British way of life used to have debtors prisons and the poor work houses.  The British way of life used to deny suffrage to Women.

The whole point of the British Way of life is that it evolves, it changes, it moves as society moves, it is not a static thing or an objective value that can be measured against.

Protest is not new, it has existed every day in some way since it was given a label, even our folklore is full of protest and much of that violent too.  Good old Robin Hood and his cohorts.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The whole point of the British Way of life is that it evolves, it changes, it moves as society moves, it is not a static thing or an objective value that can be measured against.

Indeed - through our British democratic system (in effect Parliament).  Arguably the 'British way of life' in snapshot is what is currently on the statute book, but I accept that is not a very useful way of looking at it.

3 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Protest is not new, it has existed every day in some way since it was given a label, even our folklore is full of protest and much of that violent too.

In general, British protests have been 'less violent' than many other nations - and I believe the less violence the better.

Overall, we are broadly in agreement I think.  I don't believe that our current laws on discrimination etc. are to any extent 'wrong' or probably lacking.  The way in which those charged with upholding them operate is sometimes wrong - but not often in my (rather limited) experience.  On the other side of the coin, there are those who are looking for every opportunity to claim they are 'discriminated against/oppressed/hounded' etc. and play the "race card" and make a huge fuss over it.  There are usually two sides to every story.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Look at the yougov polls over the past six weeks.

Really , an opinion poll of what ? 1500 people , in a time of mass unemployment/furlough, with a pandemic on the go, with a merciless press sniping away at any opportunity ?

What government is going to look good in all that ?
Ill go further, what government in the western world is riding high in the polls right now ??

42 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The issue of systemic racism cannot be distilled down to individual tokens, it cannot be washed away by saying 'there is no government policy of bias' or indeed the contrary that 'the law expressly forbids racism' as though that somehow means racism does not exist.

Do we have 'systemic' racism ?
No one would say it doesnt exist, it most probably exists in the minds of most people in some shape or form.
You cant make peoples thoughts illegal.

But discrimination IS illegal, and has been for some time, but again, it still exists in society , and works both ways.
Take a walk into a 'black or Asian part of town , YOU are the minority, and the chances are , you will be discriminated against.

Do business with a minority, will you get the same deal as one of their own ? I think not , is that discrimination ?

The more we dwell on racism and discrimination , the more we create in our own minds, fear, anger and resentment.
All  I am saying is , the media could do well to stop stirring the pot, the trouble is, they might find we dont need them to tell us how to think if they did.

[Scully]

26 minutes ago, Mice! said:

For me it would be the country I grew up in, lots of things change slowly but not because of violent protests. 

 

A bit vague, but I wasn’t expecting anyone to come up with something specific.
Personally I don’t think such a thing has ever existed; it lives in the imagination of people and means so many different things to different people, and different generations, as is apparent. 
 

[clangerman]

49 minutes ago, Scully said:

Just out of interest, what is ‘ the British way of life’?

in a word GREED! 

[Mice!]

10 minutes ago, Scully said:

A bit vague, but I wasn’t expecting anyone to come up with something specific.
Personally I don’t think such a thing has ever existed; it lives in the imagination of people and means so many different things to different people, and different generations, as is apparent. 
 

Where could you begin, I'm in my 40s I doubt there has been a better time to be in this country,  we would have been classed as poor, but were brought up well, there hasn't been a war( that directly affected the country) people don't starve, medical care continues to get better. But its changing. 

Yes it was a mostly white area I grew up, bit rough but I'm glad of it, there have always been a few different colours and religion's through school sport and work, just people in a place living their lives. 

I'm sure those older than me think things were better when they were younger, people always do.

[grrclark]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Indeed - through our British democratic system (in effect Parliament).  Arguably the 'British way of life' in snapshot is what is currently on the statute book, but I accept that is not a very useful way of looking at it.

In general, British protests have been 'less violent' than many other nations - and I believe the less violence the better.

Overall, we are broadly in agreement I think.  I don't believe that our current laws on discrimination etc. are to any extent 'wrong' or probably lacking.  The way in which those charged with upholding them operate is sometimes wrong - but not often in my (rather limited) experience.  On the other side of the coin, there are those who are looking for every opportunity to claim they are 'discriminated against/oppressed/hounded' etc. and play the "race card" and make a huge fuss over it.  There are usually two sides to every story.

I don't think we are miles apart either John, unfortunately so often the argument and discussion is framed in the extremes, i.e. the radical elements of BLM or the radical elements of BNP, or indeed the radical elements of every cause whatever the ideology behind it.

You cannot successfully manage anything by only working at the extremes and I think that is why there is a lot of anger shown on PW that we seem to be appeasing the lawless elements, but that isn't really true either.  Discussion on the subject so far on PW is framed at the extremes.

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Do we have 'systemic' racism ?

No one would say it doesnt exist, it most probably exists in the minds of most people in some shape or form.
You cant make peoples thoughts illegal.

But discrimination IS illegal, and has been for some time, but again, it still exists in society , and works both ways.
Take a walk into a 'black or Asian part of town , YOU are the minority, and the chances are , you will be discriminated against.

Do business with a minority, will you get the same deal as one of their own ? I think not , is that discrimination ?

The more we dwell on racism and discrimination , the more we create in our own minds, fear, anger and resentment.
All  I am saying is , the media could do well to stop stirring the pot, the trouble is, they might find we dont need them to tell us how to think if they did.

There is a lot of truth in what you post and taken to extremes, much like my posit on democracy in the other thread, you end up at a point of absurdity.

Is there systemic racism in Britain? Yes, I believe there is.  Does that mean that there is systemic intended and calculated discrimination? No, I don't believe that at all.

Does racism in our society determine poorer outcomes for some people? Yes, I believe it does.  Is that wholly the fault of intended discrimination? No, I don't think it is at all.

It is a conversation that we all need to have with ourselves, our world is changing at a pace that is unprecendented in terms of our social engagement with others outside our immediate communities.

It is changing subject entirely, but I read an essay today by JK Rowling on the trans debate (that i thought was brilliant and insightful), that is another real simmering pot of discontent and division in mostly western society right now.  It strikes me that the cause of the division is always the same.  There is a general level of ignorance by most, and i very much include myself, around the causes that people are feeling hurt by and the loud voices at either extreme of the argument are what we hear.  As it is human nature to want to identify with what we think is right or wrong we start out debating at the fringes and work back to the middle eventually and find the balance.

Right now we are arguing at the fringes a little, very many people are genuinely feeling hurt right now that they are less important and they are starting to shout about that, the BLM movement is a totem for them, they can identify with something that speaks for them and it lends momentum for them to be heard.

It is genuinely no different, at a philosophical level, from those who felt disenfranchised, made impotent or imasculated by the growth or the Eurpoean 'state' and so rallied around the totem of Nigel and UKIP.  Those that voted and advocated for Brexit all have different reasons for why they did, but having a nucleus to crystalise around lent momentum to them too.

The takeaway message for me is that when hundreds of thousands take to the streets across the UK and millions globally do the same, then it is not just tokenism and a group of angry extremists, there is a fundamental disconnect that we need to understand to be able to resolve.

[Mice!]

37 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The point is that in a fully inclusive society we don't need tokens or a metaphorical pat on the head to say 'you're really one of us, have a day on us to fly your flags to prove it'.

I can't remember there being a St George's day parade? Yet everyone goes crazy for Paddy's day, why do you think that is?

40 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The reason there isn't a white history month, or a white pride day or a Miss White GB is because we don't need it.  Everything in our society is geared up around us 'white Brits' and that is entirely natural given that the UK stems from being a predominantly white, Christian country.  However we are no longer that, as much as many may lament that fact.

Your probably right we don't need it, but there would be uproar if there was white pride day, while we just generally ignore the things we're not interested in. 

44 minutes ago, grrclark said:

That is what these protests are fundamentally about, setting the thuggery apart, is that very many people in the UK do not feel that society encompasses them as it should and it is not necessarily about race.

I'd like to know how many at that demo in London don't feel part of society ? They were clothed, fed most probably live somewhere,  most likely have a job or claim benefits,  many will be on furlough so part of the collective group.

 

49 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The majority of Scottish nationalists are white Christian, but very many of them think UK society is unfair, exclusionary and divisive and that is why much of the rhetoric of those campaigning for Independence is that they see that as the vessel to enable change. 

The difference here is it's a country or some of the people there asking for independence not groups in the country expecting the majority of the country to change things to suit them( I think that makes sense, and if Scotland ever get it I personally think it will be a disaster for the Scots)

[clangerman]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

 

I'd like to know how many at that demo in London don't feel part of society ? They were clothed, fed most probably live somewhere,  most likely have a job or claim benefits,  

 

 

how ungrateful some are when they have a dead end job making cake for someone else who throws them a bag of crumbs they can afford cheap shoddy clothes second rate food and look forward to being called a scrounger when needing to claim benefits yes they are definitely ungrateful the bottom line here is the greedy are scared where this is going and they should be! 

[grrclark]

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I can't remember there being a St George's day parade? Yet everyone goes crazy for Paddy's day, why do you think that is? Mostly beer

Your probably right we don't need it, but there would be uproar if there was white pride day, while we just generally ignore the things we're not interested in. 

I'd like to know how many at that demo in London don't feel part of society ? They were clothed, fed most probably live somewhere,  most likely have a job or claim benefits,  many will be on furlough so part of the collective group. Material posession does not equate to feeling as though society is representative and inclusive.  That is tokenism once again.

The difference here is it's a country or some of the people there asking for independence not groups in the country expecting the majority of the country to change things to suit them( I think that makes sense, and if Scotland ever get it I personally think it will be a disaster for the Scots) The point is that the groups very much do expect the country to change for them and they earnestly believe it will be for the better.  The entire message of "hope over fear" is wholly predicated on society changing to meet the ideals of the activists and aggitators.  It really is no different when you break it down.

 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, clangerman said:

how ungrateful some are when they have a dead end job making cake for someone else who throws them a bag of crumbs they can afford cheap shoddy clothes second rate food and look forward to being called a scrounger when needing to claim benefits yes they are definitely ungrateful the bottom line here is the greedy are scared where this is going and they should be! 

Then go to school , get a job, and better yourself.
Stop expecting the state, your parents, or anybody else to keep wiping your behind for you.

Theres too many people , making too much noise about 'society..whilst suckling on the teat of, society .

'Lifes tough , its tougher if youre stupid..'. John Wayne , allegedly.

[Gordon R]

Quote

how ungrateful some are when they have a dead end job making cake for someone else who throws them a bag of crumbs they can afford cheap shoddy clothes second rate food and look forward to being called a scrounger when needing to claim benefits yes they are definitely ungrateful the bottom line here is the greedy are scared where this is going and they should be! 

Sorry - just don't understand this.

Raja Clavata -

Quote

 In the main that's about the only reason I still on this site.

We have had our differences. you dish out stick and you take it, but this made me smile. 😀

[Mice!]

5 minutes ago, clangerman said:

how ungrateful some are when they have a dead end job making cake for someone else who throws them a bag of crumbs they can afford cheap shoddy clothes second rate food and look forward to being called a scrounger when needing to claim benefits yes they are definitely ungrateful the bottom line here is the greedy are scared where this is going and they should be! 

I try to ignore you I'll be honest,  my mum had a dead end boring job, but she did it to feed and cloth us, that in turn made me aim higher and demand more of myself,  get an education, get an apprenticeship, don't expect hand outs, if you want more then earn it.

[clangerman]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Then go to school , get a job, and better yourself.
Stop expecting the state, your parents, or anybody else to keep wiping your behind for you.

Theres too many people , making too much noise about 'society..whilst suckling on the teat of, society .

'Lifes tough , its tougher if youre stupid..'. John Wayne , allegedly.

nobody ever wiped my backside i worked from 14 and done ok paying crumbs while i kept the cake some of us are just honest about it i will be dead when the greed ends it’s not my funeral 

[Mice!]

10 minutes ago, grrclark said:

 

Paddy's day and beer,  yes, but us English like drinking you know.

11 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Material posession does not equate to feeling as though society is representative and inclusive.  That is tokenism once again.

Then I'd love to know then what these groups do want, your clothed ,fed, allowed to practice the religion you follow, you work or not, your kids go to school the nhs looks after you I don't see how that's not inclusive?

I'm sure there are plenty of countries where things are a lot more difficult for different cultures. 

[clangerman]

8 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I try to ignore you I'll be honest,  my mum had a dead end boring job, but she did it to feed and cloth us, that in turn made me aim higher and demand more of myself,  get an education, get an apprenticeship, don't expect hand outs, if you want more then earn it.

your not getting it i have done more than ok for myself i’m just pointing out the problem and where it’s going pretending it’s not going to happen is pointless 

[old'un]

40 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Sorry - just don't understand this......That’s because you’ve been Clangerd

Raja Clavata -

We have had our differences. you dish out stick and you take it, but this made me smile. 😀

 

[old'un]

56 minutes ago, clangerman said:

nobody ever wiped my backside i worked from 14 and done ok paying crumbs while i kept the cake some of us are just honest about it i will be dead when the greed ends it’s not my funeral 

Its not just me is it?....      ok I had my backside wiped when I was a baby (had proper nappies then) I started work at 15, I was paid crumbs but I enjoy cake, when I am dead who will care, the crumb or the cake eater? We cant all be cake eaters, but I will be honest about It I do like cake.

[clangerman]

Just now, old'un said:

Its not just me is it?....      ok I had my backside wiped when I was a baby (had proper nappies then) I started work at 15, I was paid crumbs but I enjoy cake, when I am dead who will care, the crumb or the cake eater? We cant all be cake eaters, but I will be honest about It I do like cake.

as there is every chance the thousands losing their jobs will join the misguided on the streets let’s hang fire on the jokes for now don’t want anyone thinking we insulted the dead do we 

[old'un]

10 minutes ago, clangerman said:

as there is every chance the thousands losing their jobs will join the misguided on the streets let’s hang fire on the jokes for now don’t want anyone thinking we insulted the dead do we 

I wasn’t joking, I did have my backside wiped, I did start work at 15 and I do like cake, think you are a little confused by my reply, I was just being honest, and I don’t think anyone will be insulted when I am dead.  

[clangerman]

2 minutes ago, old'un said:

I wasn’t joking, I did have my backside wiped, I did start work at 15 and I do like cake, think you are a little confused by my reply, I was just being honest, and I don’t think anyone will be insulted when I am dead.  

joking myself but my humour is strange lol 

[old'un]

3 minutes ago, clangerman said:

joking myself but my humour is strange lol 

Do you fined my replies to your posts a little confusing, and I have not been drinking.