cheggs1978 Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 I have seen that the basc have called for shooters to change over to non toxic shot. Is this proposal just for game shooting or for pest control or for both. If it is for both do you all think it will be the end of the 410, or should I start reloading with non toxic shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 yes it will. but with the new very heavyweight nontoxics are bringing the .410s use on geese. (tss18 shot type) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 Hi yes the tss shot will change the small gauge shot gun. The cost of the shot is high but less can be used ,but the.410 wads cost £160 a thousand. You could try the new type bismuth. In New Zealand l think the.410 is ok to use lead. If it’s the shot or the wads cartridges will be more expensive. I don’t think it’s the end of the.410 . I loaded 10 grams of steel for the.410 but it’s the cost of the wads. Maybe the shooting organisations should try the New Zealand way of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 Believe I have sufficent to last me out unless of course the environment police are out and about with their magnets. Shot some bismuth 16 gauge on Saturday because I did not have anything else and the uninformed owner of the shoot banned 410s at the last moment. The bismuth did the job no problem. As said it may be the cost but they may work in the favour of 410s because it requires less shot. Will not be my problem for at least five years. All a bit silly really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 This is one of the reasons I haven't bought a more expensive 410 .ou or pump . I dont want it to be worthless in a few years time .my single barrel folder cost me £120 sh. So if it does become redundant then its not a massive loss . I'd love to shoot tss through it but it would have to be a whole lot cheaper than it is . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 If I was younger I would build a shot production maker and start stacking up lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windswept Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 I've been wondering about this. Is there likely to be steel shot .410 cartridges available and, if so, will they be able to be used in fully choked .410s and many are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rem708 Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 The only problem with non-toxic Tungsten is its not so "non-toxic"!!! Embedded Weapons-Grade Tungsten Alloy Shrapnel Rapidly Induces Metastatic High-Grade Rhabdomyosarcomas in F344 Rats The jury is out for me. I'm not going to eat anything that has been hung more than a few hours if shot with tungsten. If the quarry is not going into the food chain then who cares. Draw you own conclusions but you can't beat lead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 27 minutes ago, Windswept said: I've been wondering about this. Is there likely to be steel shot .410 cartridges available and, if so, will they be able to be used in fully choked .410s and many are? There is in some places already commercial steel 410 cartridges but not yet the UK, likewise tss18 410 are starting to be produced elsewhere. We might get a New Zealand exemption if we ask for it. A full choke 410 is only 15 thou choke, so should be able to use steel without issue, but at sub 35 yards most 410 only need choke because pellets are too big. As with any gun, (and especially the 410) to a little choke is all that is needed for normal ranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 10 minutes ago, rem708 said: The only problem with non-toxic Tungsten is its not so "non-toxic"!!! Embedded Weapons-Grade Tungsten Alloy Shrapnel Rapidly Induces Metastatic High-Grade Rhabdomyosarcomas in F344 Rats The jury is out for me. I'm not going to eat anything that has been hung more than a few hours if shot with tungsten. If the quarry is not going into the food chain then who cares. Draw you own conclusions but you can't beat lead Reading the article, the problem seems to be oxidised WA due to body trying to break fragments down, I doubt anything killed with tungsten will have the same issue and as we don't ingest it (tungsten does not fragment after striking softer bone and tissue) I doubt there is an issue. Lead is the other way around where ingestion causes issues, but fragments are encapsulated by body and cause little harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 42 minutes ago, Stonepark said: There is in some places already commercial steel 410 cartridges but not yet the UK, likewise tss18 410 are starting to be produced elsewhere. How many of them are also using biodegradable wads? I suspect none in which case something has to give if the small gauges are going to have a realistic future. We are fast approaching a blackhole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 It’s the wads/shot cup that makes it very difficult badly thought out voluntary transition non toxic and plastic at the same time personaly think the amount of lead in a 4.10 is negligible compared to the plastic wad and the use of the gun is minimal in comparison to the other bores Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 .410 cartridges have come a long way since the Eley paper four longs. Cartridge manufacturers make good.410 cartridges now. The guns are (proper) guns now. There are over and under with screw in chokes even steel chokes. The guns aren’t expensive and the cartridges don’t cost a lot more than 12gauge if you aren’t shooting thousands of them. They can be a fun gun to shoot at clays or what ever you shoot at. Yes l think the.410 has been overlooked . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted October 19, 2020 Report Share Posted October 19, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Gas seal said: .410 cartridges have come a long way since the Eley paper four longs. Cartridge manufacturers make good.410 cartridges now. The guns are (proper) guns now. There are over and under with screw in chokes even steel chokes. The guns aren’t expensive and the cartridges don’t cost a lot more than 12gauge if you aren’t shooting thousands of them. They can be a fun gun to shoot at clays or what ever you shoot at. Yes l think the.410 has been overlooked . 100% agree. I shoot about 24-25 driven days a season and do not ever feel undergunned and hold my own. 2.4 to 1 last season. Considering the tens of thousands of tons of lead shot just in the UK in the last 150yrs, I would like to see the evidence of toxic effects on the population or the environment. Edited October 19, 2020 by Walker570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted October 20, 2020 Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 May be thinking out loud, one way forward is for lead shot to be banned via the environment bill in January 2013 as the bill makes no mention of the compulsory use of biodegradable wads. Not ideal because would sooner keep lead, but at least then the shooting organisations would lose traction regarding biodegradable wads, limiting the scope to 12ga for those that want to or must use them. Hopefully the idea would then quietly go away and we can all get on with using the likes of the cartridges suggested by Stonepark in the small gauges. Until, if ever suitable biodegradable wads are available for all gauges as business as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted October 20, 2020 Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 11 hours ago, Gas seal said: .410 cartridges have come a long way since the Eley paper four longs. Cartridge manufacturers make good.410 cartridges now. The guns are (proper) guns now. There are over and under with screw in chokes even steel chokes. The guns aren’t expensive and the cartridges don’t cost a lot more than 12gauge if you aren’t shooting thousands of them. They can be a fun gun to shoot at clays or what ever you shoot at. Yes l think the.410 has been overlooked . Whilst I agree with the gist of your post, I have to say that some .410s have always been ‘proper’ guns. Both of mine date from the very early 1900’s and are beautifully made English doubles. And they work! Definitely proper guns, unlike the over and under you mention. Don’t do O/U here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted October 20, 2020 Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 I have a full choke COOEY 84, produced between 1902 and 1967. Single shot hammer gun. Used mostly by my grandson, now age 7 on clays and occasionally for my daughter to use on clays. I use it for ratting. If they ban lead in .410 I'll stock up in the thousands. Enough to see me out and some left for my grandsons kids. The rats love 9g of lead so much they come out every day looking for more. My son has a Kestral SBS .410 unknown age, I think newish, at least this century. Same for him, my grandaughters love it on clays. He also has a brand new fully moderated for rats but I think that maybe steel proofed. Already other gauges are falling by the wayside. My RFD no longer stocks 28, 16, 10, or 9mm. Once you struggle to get ammo, you have only two choices, reload or don't use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted October 20, 2020 Report Share Posted October 20, 2020 Hi the English.410 will be a well built balanced shot gun. The Winchester Cooey and Belgian hammer guns we shared are what we used. It shouldn’t matter what style of gun you prefer . My good friend uses side by side 16gauge . English gun maker are now making steel proof guns. The.410 shotguns made now can be side by side, over and under, single shot,pump action, semi auto maybe muzzle loader ,triple barrel revolver ect. Plenty of choice. The question was about lead shot killing the.410. Lead shot gun pellets are prohibited on foreshore and sssi’s . The General license should be drafted now and be available to the public in a few weeks. If lead shot is prohibited when using the license it’s another (ban) . The.410 used for general license shooting will have to use non lead like other gauges. I don’t think other gauges are falling by the way side. We have a lot of different types of cartridges in all gauges and a lot of types of shotguns in all gauges to chose from. The.410 is a great gauge whatever type of gun used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotgcoalman Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 Eley make some superb 410 cartridges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted October 30, 2020 Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 Plenty of choice for good 410 shells. I obviously shoot my own reloads but factory Fiocchi first, Hull High Pheasant second ..... then FOB, Cheddite, RC, Winchester etc etc I am sure that an alternative to lead would be available but I will be using lead for the forseeable future I have enough shot to last me a few more seasons and do not shoot over wetlands or restricted areas and if I do I can always turn to bismuth for a couple of boxes and in the pattern at sensible ranges bismuth does the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlander Posted October 30, 2020 Report Share Posted October 30, 2020 On 19/10/2020 at 19:47, rem708 said: The only problem with non-toxic Tungsten is its not so "non-toxic"!!! Embedded Weapons-Grade Tungsten Alloy Shrapnel Rapidly Induces Metastatic High-Grade Rhabdomyosarcomas in F344 Rats The jury is out for me. I'm not going to eat anything that has been hung more than a few hours if shot with tungsten. If the quarry is not going into the food chain then who cares. Draw you own conclusions but you can't beat lead Tungsten not from China is rare and already std steel shipments have set of radioactivity meters at Dock etc . They aint good at the honesty and health and safety bit let's face it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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