Forced to work

[AVB]

A lawyer friend has produced a good article  regarding whether companies can force employees to come into work  

https://www.farorelaw.co.uk/insights/opinion-can-an-employee-be-forced-to-attend-their-workplace

In summary 

of the employee is vulnerable or has caring need then you can’t dismiss without facing a claim for unfair dismissal. 
 

for employees with no vulnerability or caring needs then you can dismiss but be careful as the action of doing so hasn’t been tested in court yet. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

14 minutes ago, AVB said:

A lawyer friend has produced a good article  regarding whether companies can force employees to come into work  

https://www.farorelaw.co.uk/insights/opinion-can-an-employee-be-forced-to-attend-their-workplace

In summary 

of the employee is vulnerable or has caring need then you can’t dismiss without facing a claim for unfair dismissal. 
 

for employees with no vulnerability or caring needs then you can dismiss but be careful as the action of doing so hasn’t been tested in court yet. 

I would have thought that was extremely straightforward!

[AVB]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I would have thought that was extremely straightforward!

The conclusion is but there is a lot of detail that explains why. I know there were some people on here who were questioning whether there employer was being unreasonable. 

[oscarsdad]

I will read that with interest. My employer is already telling everyone they’ll be back at work on 22nd Feb - if the lockdown is still in place at that point then I can’t see how those with office and screen based roles can be forced in with lockdown being very clear that only travel to work if impossible to work from home. If lockdown is eased then that may be different. 
 

having read it my assumption above is incorrect in some cases. Will have to see how it pans out. I’m not keen on returning to an office with no windows that can open when I can be 100% effective from home and have already demonstrated that. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by oscarsdad

[ordnance]

Very interesting  

[Lloyd90]

They can’t be forced to come back to work / can’t be sacked if they are vulnerable or a carer... 

 

but does that mean the company has to keep paying them? 
 

Of can the company place them on unpaid leave? 
 

A woman in my work has kicked up a right stink about coming back to the office. 
 

Despite this her son is a school teaching assistant, he’s a grown man but lives with her at home, he must see hundreds of children daily. 
 

The sons girlfriend is a teaching assistant and also sees hundreds of students daily. 
 

The sons girlfriend has decided to live with them both so they can keep seeing each other. 
 

The woman has no issues at home with her son and his GF (who could have bother lived at the girlfriends parents) but refuses to come back to work with a handful of people in a socially distanced office that’s all been sectioned off... 

[WalkedUp]

I’m in an ongoing dispute with one of my employees as she’s chosen to get pregnant during the pandemic and now wants to work from home due to her vulnerability. Unpaid leave or more likely furlough seems the best option but we would have to hire to replace her. Our solicitor believes there is a mechanism to do so but my partners are dead against the idea on PR and moral grounds. It’s madness that entitled people think the money can keep flowing with no work getting done as if every business is sat on a good mine with endless reserves. 

[243deer]

2 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I’m in an ongoing dispute with one of my employees as she’s chosen to get pregnant during the pandemic and now wants to work from home due to her vulnerability. Unpaid leave or more likely furlough seems the best option but we would have to hire to replace her. Our solicitor believes there is a mechanism to do so but my partners are dead against the idea on PR and moral grounds. It’s madness that entitled people think the money can keep flowing with no work getting done as if every business is sat on a good mine with endless reserves. 

very dodgy ground saying she 'chose' to get pregnant. She could suddenly be religous and claim pregnancy is an act of God not a choice upon which you fall foul of almost limitless religious prejudice claims. 

It is sad that personal resposibility seems to be at such a low level in some folk.

[Mungler]

6 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

They can’t be forced to come back to work / can’t be sacked if they are vulnerable or a carer... 

 

but does that mean the company has to keep paying them? 
 

Of can the company place them on unpaid leave? 
 

A woman in my work has kicked up a right stink about coming back to the office. 
 

Despite this her son is a school teaching assistant, he’s a grown man but lives with her at home, he must see hundreds of children daily. 
 

The sons girlfriend is a teaching assistant and also sees hundreds of students daily. 
 

The sons girlfriend has decided to live with them both so they can keep seeing each other. 
 

The woman has no issues at home with her son and his GF (who could have bother lived at the girlfriends parents) but refuses to come back to work with a handful of people in a socially distanced office that’s all been sectioned off... 

 

We had something similar. Massive kick off about coming into work but happy to go to Costa, Lakeside and breach lockdown at weekend when it suited. 

First whiff we weren’t going to have this person ‘shirking from home’ the individual’s GP (following a telephone consultation only) signed the individual off work with stress.

 

43 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I’m in an ongoing dispute with one of my employees as she’s chosen to get pregnant during the pandemic and now wants to work from home due to her vulnerability. Unpaid leave or more likely furlough seems the best option but we would have to hire to replace her. Our solicitor believes there is a mechanism to do so but my partners are dead against the idea on PR and moral grounds. It’s madness that entitled people think the money can keep flowing with no work getting done as if every business is sat on a good mine with endless reserves. 

100%

[WalkedUp]

 

43 minutes ago, 243deer said:

She could suddenly be religous

I wouldn’t put it past her although she’s not married and certainly isn’t a virgin which must be in my favour for an immaculate conception 🤣

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

the individual’s GP (following a telephone consultation only) signed the individual off work with stress

On SSP? My father gave full pay on sick leave, one architect had 42 days off with a sore testicle. I insisted on SSP for my company and productivity and attendance is much higher. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by WalkedUp

[243deer]

3 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

 

I wouldn’t put it past her although she’s not married and certainly isn’t a virgin which must be in my favour for an immaculate conception 🤣

 

just playing devils advocate - that could also be a strong argument she did not 'choose' to get pregnant, you would not be allowed at a tribunal to delve into a persons sexual habits to prove your point

[WalkedUp]

https://comb.io/96qDzC

[AVB]

1 hour ago, 243deer said:

just playing devils advocate - that could also be a strong argument she did not 'choose' to get pregnant, you would not be allowed at a tribunal to delve into a persons sexual habits to prove your point

Absolutely you would get slaughtered if you tried that one. There is no differentiation between getting pregnant by accident or deliberate. The only thing considered is pregnant or not. 

[henry d]

2 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

chosen to get pregnant during the pandemic and now wants to work from home due to her vulnerability.

Wow! I think you will find there are two vulnerable people

[Zetter]

We are in the same situation one of my staff who cant work from home (machine operator) has been off since March last year as he say his dependants are in a risk group despite not being told to shield during either of the lockdowns . Fine with us he on the books but not getting paid , we had various requests for furlough but to be blunt there is a job for him and the site has been struggling being a man down putting pressure on the rest of the team so why should he get paid to site on his **** at home.

If it was up to me he would have been gone months ago and I would have got someone in who needed a job but at the moment every HR department is playing the safe game to the max. Also its no skin off their nose as its not costing the company anything to keep him on the books. 

[Lloyd90]

23 minutes ago, Zetter said:

We are in the same situation one of my staff who cant work from home (machine operator) has been off since March last year as he say his dependants are in a risk group despite not being told to shield during either of the lockdowns . Fine with us he on the books but not getting paid , we had various requests for furlough but to be blunt there is a job for him and the site has been struggling being a man down putting pressure on the rest of the team so why should he get paid to site on his **** at home.

If it was up to me he would have been gone months ago and I would have got someone in who needed a job but at the moment every HR department is playing the safe game to the max. Also its no skin off their nose as its not costing the company anything to keep him on the books. 

To be fair, I can’t see anything wrong with that. 
 

Some companies are sitting on multi-millions or pounds in reserves but most are probably not. 
 

If someone who themselves doesn’t meet the criteria to shield had taken it upon themselves to stay at home during all this (despite family not being told to shield) but didn’t get paid I think that’s fair enough. 
 

They’re basically saying “I’d rather not take the risk”, and you guys are saying that’s fine but obviously don’t expect to be paid. 
 

The old Doomsday Prepper people are probably having a field day at the moment 🤣

 

If they had enough money held in reserve to pay the bills etc for the last year and enough food so they haven’t visited the store at all for almost a year then they are going strong. This has been a long process though I wonder how many will have the ability to keep going. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Conversely, we have a chap at work who seems to turn the "I must shield" line on and off as it suits him.

He got caught out in an earlier lockdown when he stupidly put pictures of himself out and about on Facebook whilst off supposedly shielding.

He returned to work very promptly.

 

You can't have it both ways! 

[WalkedUp]

I went to her site meeting this morning in her place and called her on the way back to tell her what she needed to action. She complained to me that she’s an architect, not my PA - why do I keep giving her administration work to do? I honestly didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. 

[strimmer_13]

Well im in the situ where I work for the council. At the start of this lockdown I was told, by the town clerk who's my employer, I could work from home to help with the home schooling as the misses is working from home, (me doing lessons in the am, her the pm) they would provide work for me in the am and I'd go in after lunch. Still recieve full pay as technically I'll be doing training courses in the morning. Great. I offered to work overtime to make up morning hours, but I'm not allowed as it's lone working and I've got a illness and I'm the first aider... Also my holidays are all used. I also requested furlong for the am only, it made sense. I'm the only one with a kid in primary school. Was then told they are looking into it. 

Yesterday I get told, I'm having a zoom  meeting with the clerk, mayor and legal representative whilst being recorded, that they are not going to pay me anymore (despite what the town clerk promised and set up work for me to do at home) my hours will be docked into next year's holiday and I'll owe every hour. 

I offered to work. They refused. They now telling me my pays going to get docked. So I've been 5 years, in my interest it makes perfect sense to go off ill as I'd get paid. They've treated me like **** from day one, I have absolutely no loyalty to them where as every small firm I've ever worked for has been a far better employer. 

lll never work for the council again, or recommend it. 

Oh and I'm in work being essential atm painting a bench. This lock downs a joke

Edited January 28, 2021 by strimmer_13

[Vince Green]

An employer has very little fear of claims about unfair dismissal. It is a lengthy, time consuming and expensive process for the claimant and very few can afford it or are willing to take the risk.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Vince Green

[AVB]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

An employer has very little fear of claims about unfair dismissal. It is a lengthy, time consuming and expensive process for the claimant and very few can afford it or are willing to take the risk.

 

Plain unfair dismissal maybe but throw in sex/race discrimination into the mix and its a completely different ball game. Potentially unlimited liability and it doesn’t have to be expensive for the plaintiff. I’ve been involved in a few and would strongly advise any employer to avoid as much as possible. 

[ordnance]

7 hours ago, Vince Green said:

An employer has very little fear of claims about unfair dismissal. It is a lengthy, time consuming and expensive process for the claimant and very few can afford it or are willing to take the risk.

 

If you are in a union would they not take it on if they thought you hade a case, or the equity commission etc. I would think the unions will be trying some test cases, if they are successful then there will be lots more.  

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

If you are in a union would they not take it on if they thought you hade a case, or the equity commission etc. I would think the unions will be trying some test cases, if they are successful then there will be lots more.  

IF you are in a union but that is a rapidly shrinking percentage of the work force as a whole. More is the pity, the unions fought hard over many years to establish workers rights but people don't want to pay £2.50 a week to be a member. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Vince Green

[ordnance]

6 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

IF you are in a union but that is a rapidly shrinking percentage of the work force as a whole. More is the pity, the unions fought hard over many years to establish workers rights but people don't want to pay £2.50 a week to be a member. 

For me its a no brainer to be in a union, for employment legal help if needed. 

[The Mighty Prawn]

Had one at my work, too nervous to come back when we returned full time in June, constantly on social media at farmers markets etc selling her homemade gin! She just gone on maternity now so another year without her. Everyone else had to pick up her work while the bosses shrugged.