SXS and standard steel

[enfieldspares]

34 minutes ago, London Best said:

It is tempting to turn up for a ‘try sustainable ammunition’ day and deliberately take a 100 year old 2 1/2 inch gun and make a big scene when they cannot provide any ammo for it.

I sold my own Boss (made in 1922) in December 2021 as the words "the potential" are evidence that there is a chance of damage and in any best London gun that means there is a chance you'll be then needing to spend at least, now, £10,000 on a set of new barrels or else the gun's value is much reduced form either being sleeved or having someone else's new barrels on it. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Ferretlurcher1970]

Think your find according to the ******** pedalled by basc a bulged barrels no problem 😂

[oldypigeonpopper]

On 24/10/2021 at 09:23, andrew f said:

I've found these boggy not sure eid there standard or the HP steel https://www.justcartridges.com/product/supreme-steel-16ga-2/

Hello ,those state standard performance steel but note the info of recommended half choke, yet some PW members have mention using more choke with no effect on the barrels like Gerry , I cannot see any standard steel cartridges being any different to lead, but I've not tried any, I'm sticking to lead until there's a total ban,

[wymberley]

27 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello ,those state standard performance steel but note the info of recommended half choke, yet some PW members have mention using more choke with no effect on the barrels like Gerry , I cannot see any standard steel cartridges being any different to lead, but I've not tried any, I'm sticking to lead until there's a total ban,

Although most know what you mean, in view of the stated "a load of ****", it might be prudent if the quoted phrase is qualified.

As BASC coaches were using steel shot on the shotgun clinics some 30+ years ago, you'd have thought we'd have got to grips with it by now.

[Scully]

I think a lot of it comes down to what you’re prepared to do to continue your way of life. 

There are those who believe that by refusing to accept change and just get on with it to make the best of what is available to us, it will somehow not happen. It will, and it is happening. 
Any nitro proofed gun is more than capable of handling standard steel, through any choke, what is lacking is the will to do it. 🤷‍♂️
Those sleeved and therefore reproofed sxs’s may yet come into their own. 
 

[Stimo22]

Been using steel shot cartridges for duck shooting for nearly 20 years. Most of them Gamebore silver steel with fibre wad. Really good cartridges but 3” chamber required . Will use normal steel cartridges through my old Beretta which is not steel proofed for everything else. Odd game day will be bismuth through a W.W.Greener 16 bore. If people are really going to stop shooting because of this change then all the better for those who don’t 

[London Best]

All my ducks and geese since the ban on lead for wildfowl (1998?) have been shot using standard steel or tungsten through a SxS. Not a 2 1/2 inch gun as there have been no cartridges available, but  Spanish L.I.G. with 2 3/4 (70mm) chambers. The gun has fired hundreds of steel cartridges and the bores are pristine and unmarked in any way. As it happens, the gun carries very little choke, actually zero and .010”, or a nominal true cylinder and quarter choke. But I would have done exactly the same had the barrels been half/full, but would have hit far fewer ducks.

[enfieldspares]

11 minutes ago, London Best said:

All my ducks and geese since the ban on lead for wildfowl (1998?) have been shot using standard steel or tungsten through a SxS. Not a 2 1/2 inch gun as there have been no cartridges available, but  Spanish L.I.G. with 2 3/4 (70mm) chambers. The gun has fired hundreds of steel cartridges and the bores are pristine and unmarked in any way. As it happens, the gun carries very little choke, actually zero and .010”, or a nominal true cylinder and quarter choke. But I would have done exactly the same had the barrels been half/full, but would have hit far fewer ducks.

Thank YOU for that as on "English" guns I value, and have confidence, in what YOU say.

[enfieldspares]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

Any nitro proofed gun is more than capable of handling standard steel, through any choke, what is lacking is the will to do it. 🤷‍♂️
 

That lack of "will" on my part is that most all of the BASC posturing still says that they is "potential" for barrel damage of there "may be" some bulging of the chokes. The words "Cautious recommendation". Not the words wholly endorses but qualified. That's not good enough.

Quote

BASC - Guide to using non-lead shot.

Page 13: Please note that the British Proof Authority will not give guidance on pre-1954 proof marks and recommends re-proof of such arms

Page 14: For traditional lightweight game guns (proofed before 1954) the British Proof Authority gives a cautious recommendation that lighter loads are used (e.g. 21g cartridges for 12 bore) and no more than quarter choke.

file:///C:/Users/enfie/Downloads/Lead-Campaign-Booklet-Feb-2022-16pp.pdf

 

That may be fine when you've a factory made gun that passed proof before 1954 AND IS PERFECTLY USABLE WITH LEAD SHOT. When your gun would cost £10,000 for a new set of barrels made by the maker that is not odds I wish to take a punt on.

[Scully]

35 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

That lack of "will" on my part is that most all of the BASC posturing still says that they is "potential" for barrel damage of there "may be" some bulging of the chokes. The words "Cautious recommendation". 

 

That applies equally to steel shot proofed guns, even those proofed to HP level. 
If you care to disregard the findings of countless shooters who have used steel ( including HP ) through ordinary nitro proofed guns since the ban for wildfowl came into force, then that’s entirely your choice. 
If you don’t want to use steel then your alternatives are to use one of the other options or render that particular gun obsolete or use an alternative gun. 
 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Scully

[London Best]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

Thank YOU for that as on "English" guns I value, and have confidence, in what YOU say.

We must not forget that all those cartridges would have had plastic wads. Something we are now trying NOT to use with steel shot. 
For my lead game cartridges I have always refused to buy plastic wads.

edit: I do not think that any of the “Big Three”, “Holy Trinity” makers would make a pair of barrels for £10,000 for a gun which today costs WELL North of £100,000.

Edited June 30, 2022 by London Best

[kevin55]

Anyone tried steel with damascus yet?

Are we concluding that with the appropriate load, standard steel is just as safe for the gun and shooter as lead?

Wasn't there a letter in Shooting Times recently mentioning that guns had been damaged on 1 of the 'try steel' days?

 

[Gerry78]

16 hours ago, London Best said:

All my ducks and geese since the ban on lead for wildfowl (1998?) have been shot using standard steel or tungsten through a SxS. Not a 2 1/2 inch gun as there have been no cartridges available, but  Spanish L.I.G. with 2 3/4 (70mm) chambers. The gun has fired hundreds of steel cartridges and the bores are pristine and unmarked in any way. As it happens, the gun carries very little choke, actually zero and .010”, or a nominal true cylinder and quarter choke. But I would have done exactly the same had the barrels been half/full, but would have hit far fewer ducks.

LB I’ve been saying this 👆for years on this forum using standard steel 2 3/4 cartridges thru a aya no3 magnum for ducks and geese no effect on my guns barrels/chambering etc 

[Dangerous Brian]

On 01/07/2022 at 09:03, kevin55 said:

Anyone tried steel with damascus yet?

Are we concluding that with the appropriate load, standard steel is just as safe for the gun and shooter as lead?

Wasn't there a letter in Shooting Times recently mentioning that guns had been damaged on 1 of the 'try steel' days?

 

I remember a few months back that testing was going to start on Damascus barrels. Can't remember if it was the proof house or other doing it though.

There were reports that a gun had been damaged on a try steel day but a few months later it emerged that the guns had been in use long before the try steel days and as such it was unclear whether steel shot was the cause. I haven't heard anything on that subject since. Anyone else have an update?

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, there's going to be a lot of people disappointed if lead shot gets band and use best English made guns that do not conform to steel shot use, eg 2.5 inch chambers ? My first English side by side only had 2.5 inch chambers , most likely been scrapped , there must be 1000s going to be obsolete ,

[kevin55]

8 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, there's going to be a lot of people disappointed if lead shot gets band and use best English made guns that do not conform to steel shot use, eg 2.5 inch chambers ? My first English side by side only had 2.5 inch chambers , most likely been scrapped , there must be 1000s going to be obsolete ,

Definitely 2.5" guns badly affeted price wise. I've been watching 1 on at a well know dealer, up for nearly £3000, now going for auction, estimate £800-1200

[oldypigeonpopper]

12 minutes ago, kevin55 said:

Definitely 2.5" guns badly affeted price wise. I've been watching 1 on at a well know dealer, up for nearly £3000, now going for auction, estimate £800-1200

Hello, I can see more of this as we get to a time if lead cartridges  are banned , there's always make your own but that may have its own problems, so very expensive wall hangers, 🤔

[kevin55]

27 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I can see more of this as we get to a time if lead cartridges  are banned , there's always make your own but that may have its own problems, so very expensive wall hangers, 🤔

Weren't Purdey doing something about cartridges for old 2.5" guns to maintain a supply?

[oldypigeonpopper]

3 minutes ago, kevin55 said:

Weren't Purdey doing something about cartridges for old 2.5" guns to maintain a supply?

Hello, I don't know, worth looking into if you have a well loved English side by side,

[cardigun]

Eley now make a cartridge for "Stanhdard" Steel pressures in a 2 1/2 " case. It is in an Orange case, like the old days.  Have a look in Just Cartridges

[oldypigeonpopper]

1 hour ago, cardigun said:

Eley now make a cartridge for "Stanhdard" Steel pressures in a 2 1/2 " case. It is in an Orange case, like the old days.  Have a look in Just Cartridges

Well done 👍

[JohnfromUK]

There are at least 3 possible choices;

https://www.eleyhawkltd.com/game-load/grand-prix-traditional-steel-pro-eco

https://gamebore.com/uk/cartridge/game/12g-Regal-Steel-Bio-Wad

https://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/game/cartridges/imperial-traditional-steel

The problem is at present, they are near enough impossible to actually buy a box or two to try.  I am looking forward to trying and I hope patterning them, but have not yet found anyone who has them in stock, and I do not want to buy 1000 just to try.