Premium cartridges - are they worth it?

[Townie]

This has been done to death, but a bit of a personal view.

Small driven day yesterday and I'd popped into the gunshop for 50 cartridges. I've used Fiocchi F3 for a couple of seasons and the chap in the shop suggested Lyalvale Supreme Game Ultimate, that he kindly let me have for a couple of £ off to try.

First drive with the Ultimates. Crisp recoil, nice to use, couple of clean kills.

Second drive with the Fiocchi. Precisely the same.

Subsequent drives with a mix - couldn't tell you which was which.

My point is that Just Cartridges sell the Ultimates at £389 a thousand and the Fiocchi at £319. That'll probably work out £2 a box more at the quantity I buy and I can't see that premium cartridges are worth the money. Both 30g no6 in lead by the way.

Thoughts please!

[Smokersmith]

The F3’s are 2.6mm and the Ultimates are 2.8mm … so 6’s and 5’s ….

Reading some other threads I’m amazed you killed anything given the shot size discrepancy.

 

[B725]

I've been exactly where you are and after spending a fair bit of money on so called premium cartridges I found no difference at all using the  gamebore clear pigeon 32g 6s, so that's what I use all the time now. 

[Fellside]

1 minute ago, Townie said:

This has been done to death, but a bit of a personal view.

Small driven day yesterday and I'd popped into the gunshop for 50 cartridges. I've used Fiocchi F3 for a couple of seasons and the chap in the shop suggested Lyalvale Supreme Game Ultimate, that he kindly let me have for a couple of £ off to try.

First drive with the Ultimates. Crisp recoil, nice to use, couple of clean kills.

Second drive with the Fiocchi. Precisely the same.

Subsequent drives with a mix - couldn't tell you which was which.

My point is that Just Cartridges sell the Ultimates at £389 a thousand and the Fiocchi at £319. That'll probably work out £2 a box more at the quantity I buy and I can't see that premium cartridges are worth the money. Both 30g no6 in lead by the way.

Thoughts please!

My two peneth for what it’s worth. 
 

I find that it’s important to have a ‘confidence cartridge’ which I know has a good even pattern through my chosen barrel/choke. I do pattern test a few - and I’m often surprised how differently the various brands actually perform. Sometimes with certain guns in the past, I’ve been lucky that the best option has been a pigeon cheapy. At other times it’s ended up being a premium game cartridge. Having said all this, most cart’s will be fine on average birds, it’s the more testing ones which  tend to need the better performance……from the cartridge and me. 🙂

Re Express cart’s - I think other cartridge companies are so far ahead of them now. I haven’t bought Express for over 10 years. 

[Fellside]

5 minutes ago, B725 said:

I've been exactly where you are and after spending a fair bit of money on so called premium cartridges I found no difference at all using the  gamebore clear pigeon 32g 6s, so that's what I use all the time now. 

Yes agree - Gamebore’s ‘Clear Pigeon’ is a consistent performer through most guns / chokes. A really good all round load…👍.

[Townie]

I'm working on the assumption that gunshops make more on the premium ones and they're keen to push them.

And agree with Fellside about confidence. I like the Fiocchis, but my head tells me they're not that much different to anything else.

[wymberley]

29 minutes ago, Fellside said:

My two peneth for what it’s worth. 
 

I find that it’s important to have a ‘confidence cartridge’ which I know has a good even pattern through my chosen barrel/choke. I do pattern test a few - and I’m often surprised how differently the various brands actually perform. Sometimes with certain guns in the past, I’ve been lucky that the best option has been a pigeon cheapy. At other times it’s ended up being a premium game cartridge. Having said all this, most cart’s will be fine on average birds, it’s the more testing ones which  tend to need the better performance……from the cartridge and me. 🙂

Re Express cart’s - I think other cartridge companies are so far ahead of them now. I haven’t bought Express for over 10 years. 

Hi,

Would you mind if I took the opportunity to point out to Scully that that's four of us now. 

[enfieldspares]

I actually did find that Eley's green paper cased English copper plated shot #6 was disappointing in my very open bored 12 Bore. I think that premium cartridges, perversely, have a role in clay shooting where premium shot will give a better pattern, an even pattern and give more visible kills. That one pellet chipped on the edge clay becomes a two pellet broken into three clay.

In game shooting I find that shot size makes more difference than shot quality. That's to say not too good English #6 in lead will always kill better than the most perfect shaped and graded English #5 or English #4 in the same payload weight of 1 1/16 ounce or 1 ounce. And on woodcock English #7 in 1 ounce trumps all! If I had my time again I'd shoot 1 ounce of English #6 1/2.

Edited October 24, 2021 by enfieldspares

[Fellside]

36 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Hi,

Would you mind if I took the opportunity to point out to Scully that that's four of us now. 

Hi Wymberley,

No I don’t mind at all. Do you mean the Express cartridge point I made?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, Townie said:

My point is that Just Cartridges sell the Ultimates at £389 a thousand and the Fiocchi at £319. That'll probably work out £2 a box more at the quantity I buy and I can't see that premium cartridges are worth the money. Both 30g no6 in lead by the way.

Thoughts please!

No, they are not!

[Scully]

59 minutes ago, wymberley said:

 

Would you mind if I took the opportunity to point out to Scully that that's four of us now. 

🙂 That believes 0.5 mm on a pellet is responsible for a miss at any given distance out there in the field?!!

On a more serious note, if there is a genuine case that manufacturers are selling a product that isn't as it should be, to the extent it's misleading in its claims, then if anyone wants to draft an email to inform them of this fact, and that we won't be buying any more of their products until the issue is addressed, then I'll sign it. 

1 hour ago, B725 said:

I've been exactly where you are and after spending a fair bit of money on so called premium cartridges I found no difference at all using the  gamebore clear pigeon 32g 6s, so that's what I use all the time now. 

Great cartridge, on all manner of live quarry. 

[wymberley]

27 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Hi Wymberley,

No I don’t mind at all. Do you mean the Express cartridge point I made?

Yes and no. Scully is of the opinion that there are no bad game cartridges out there which he wouldn't buy and has pointed out that that made just 3 of us of that opinion - until that is you now seem to have made it four. Yep, my input was just one offering from Express but as it happens their error suits my application.  

[Fellside]

19 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Yes and no. Scully is of the opinion that there are no bad game cartridges out there which he wouldn't buy and has pointed out that that made just 3 of us of that opinion - until that is you now seem to have made it four. Yep, my input was just one offering from Express but as it happens their error suits my application.  

Ah OK, understood. Yes I do share that opinion. The only real difference appears to be how much they suit or pattern well with any particular gun. 
 

P.S The only reason I don’t like express is because they had a propellant failure a few years ago - with a sizeable batch of cart’s. One or two other problems too. Just lost trust really. 

[London Best]

I went for a nice driven partridge day yesterday.

But after reading threads on here last week I was worried that I had the correct cartridges with the optimum muzzle velocity in the best shot size for the game at the range it was being presented or even if I had the correct chokes to place the optimum number of shot in the right size circle because my barrels might not be the correct length to handle the wads I was firing.

In the end I just took what I always take which is an unfashionable SxS with short barrels and open chokes shooting 28 grams of 7’s from, horror of horrors, Express Supreme Game cartridges. Funnily enough, I seem to have chosen everything correctly and it all worked just fine. Phew!

[Townie]

28 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Yes and no. Scully is of the opinion that there are no bad game cartridges out there which he wouldn't buy and has pointed out that that made just 3 of us of that opinion - until that is you now seem to have made it four. Yep, my input was just one offering from Express but as it happens their error suits my application.  

I think I make 5. I've used many sorts of cartridge and they all perform the same for me. Three Crowns particularly nice to shoot though.
 

But fully understand the confidence point.

[Fellside]

43 minutes ago, London Best said:

I went for a nice driven partridge day yesterday.

But after reading threads on here last week I was worried that I had the correct cartridges with the optimum muzzle velocity in the best shot size for the game at the range it was being presented or even if I had the correct chokes to place the optimum number of shot in the right size circle because my barrels might not be the correct length to handle the wads I was firing.

In the end I just took what I always take which is an unfashionable SxS with short barrels and open chokes shooting 28 grams of 7’s from, horror of horrors, Express Supreme Game cartridges. Funnily enough, I seem to have chosen everything correctly and it all worked just fine. Phew!

I’m sure your success had more to do with pointing your gun in the right place. 
Although you were fortunate -  in that your Express loads all went bang. A few years ago mine went off with a muffled pop and there was a huge quantity of unburned bright green powder all the way from chamber to muzzle. Similar in other parts of the UK for that batch apparently. Glad you had a good day with yours though. I’m sure Express will have rectified things by now….but ‘once bitten twice’ shy for me. 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

I’m sure your success had more to do with pointing your gun in the right place. 
Although you were fortunate -  in that your Express loads all went bang. A few years ago mine went off with a muffled pop and there was a huge quantity of unburned bright green powder all the way from chamber to muzzle. Similar in other parts of the UK for that batch apparently. Glad you had a good day with yours though. I’m sure Express will have rectified things by now….but ‘once bitten twice’ shy for me. 

Over twenty years ago I had a 20 bore fizzer leaving a wad in the barrel, and later a similar fizzer in .410, both Express. Neither put me off the brand which I have used in 12 bore since Winchester GB’s became unavailable.
I have had much success with Express cartridges and also like the Hull cartridge offerings. For some reason I don’t like Gamebore’s products. I have a friend who will not use Eley’s because he gets constant misfires with them.  
I am happy with Eley shotgun cartridges, but my BRNO .22rf misfires constantly with Eley subsonic, no others.
I no longer wish to buy foreign cartridges.

[Fellside]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

Over twenty years ago I had a 20 bore fizzer leaving a wad in the barrel, and later a similar fizzer in .410, both Express. Neither put me off the brand which I have used in 12 bore since Winchester GB’s became unavailable.
I have had much success with Express cartridges and also like the Hull cartridge offerings. For some reason I don’t like Gamebore’s products. I have a friend who will not use Eley’s because he gets constant misfires with them.  
I am happy with Eley shotgun cartridges, but my BRNO .22rf misfires constantly with Eley subsonic, no others.
I no longer wish to buy foreign cartridges.

Strange isn’t it how we’ve all had mixed experiences with various cart’s. I think at the end of the day it’s a confidence thing. 
 

I don’t mind an odd duff cartridge once in a blue moon - no product is 100% all of the time. The Express batch failure was quite large scaled though. For me it highlighted a lack of testing, and I just became very wary. I bet they test more now though….?!

[Lloyd90]

My 2p’s worth is that for anyone shooting driven birds, the cost of the box the cartridges will by far be the cheapest part of the day and I think it’s a bit mad to put so much thought into what carts anyone is using. 
 

If people want to put that much thought into it go shoot a pattern plate with your chosen carts and choke combo. 

[Old farrier]

On 24/10/2021 at 19:00, Fellside said:

Strange isn’t it how we’ve all had mixed experiences with various cart’s. I think at the end of the day it’s a confidence thing. 
 

I don’t mind an odd duff cartridge once in a blue moon - no product is 100% all of the time. The Express batch failure was quite large scaled though. For me it highlighted a lack of testing, and I just became very wary. I bet they test more now though….?!

I had a few 1000 from that batch and fortunately they changed them all for me 

they were very dangerous in my opinion 

Once I had used the replacement cartridges I never used them again 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

But that is a logical approach to the problem, they were very below par, they were replaced and you are now shy of ever using them again.

[Fellside]

13 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

My 2p’s worth is that for anyone shooting driven birds, the cost of the box the cartridges will by far be the cheapest part of the day and I think it’s a bit mad to put so much thought into what carts anyone is using. 
 

If people want to put that much thought into it go shoot a pattern plate with your chosen carts and choke combo. 

It’s the cheapest part of the day if they go bang and do the job. It’s very expensive if they don’t. 

When I discovered mine were duff, I had a whole morning of pointless trigger pulling. My afternoon was saved as someone gave me some Eley VIPs. Simply put, they worked and the birds tumbled. In fact I discovered that I really liked the VIPs. I pattern tested them afterwards - great patterns. I continued buying them for a further 5 years. They became my ‘confidence cartridge’. 

 

 

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

It’s the cheapest part of the day if they go bang and do the job. It’s very expensive if they don’t. 

When I discovered mine were duff, I had a whole morning of pointless trigger pulling. My afternoon was saved as someone gave me some Eley VIPs. Simply put, they worked and the birds tumbled. In fact I discovered that I really liked the VIPs. I pattern tested them afterwards - great patterns. I continued buying them for a further 5 years. They became my ‘confidence cartridge’. 

 

 

 

 

If only you had patterned the original cartidges. 

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

 

If only you had patterned the original cartidges. 

I did. Used them for years before the failed batch. 

[Lloyd90]

19 minutes ago, Fellside said:

I did. Used them for years before the failed batch. 

 

Weird that, what were they? 

I found the dark cases clear pigeons awful, swapped to the newer ones with the clear case again and a lot better.