Cabinet installation query

[Genghis]

I’m 3 weeks into a first-time SGC application, but I’m starting to have concerns about my cabinet.

 

Due to space constraints, I purchased a horizontal space saver cabinet, that holds 2 broken down shotguns. It’s been installed in the loft fit to the breeze block (new build house, so breeze block only comes about 60cm off the floor - hence the horizontal safe). I’m not DIY-minded, so I got a workman in to install. As there were no holes pre-drilled in the back of the cabinet, only the base, he asked if he could use a strong glue to fix the cabinet to the wall. I initially didn’t think this was a problem, so I agreed and said it would be fine so long as the  safe was ‘extremely secure’.

 

I tested it out after he has finished and was happy enough. Tried putting all my weight into it and it wouldn’t budge an inch. He also bolted the safe to the wooden loft boards using the pre-drilled holes. It wasn’t until a week later when I was having a shooting lesson, and when talking about my safe the instructor told me that he didn’t think the police would accept a safe that had been glued rather than bolted. After looking around on the internet, it looks like he’s right.
 

I actually have the same workman coming around at the end of next week for an unrelated job, so I’m wondering if I should query with him the idea of having the safe bolted instead of glued, or wait for the FEO visit and see what they say.
 

It’s my own fault for not researching properly before installation, but does anybody have any knowledge of how much of a pain this would be to fix? I don’t know the name of the glue that he used off-hand, but I’ll get that when I speak to him.

[mgsontour]

My 'inspector' insisted on rawl bolts

[Scully]

People fix cabinets to nothing more than plaster board, so I wouldn’t worry about it, especially if it’ll take your weight without budging. 
It’s all open to interpretation anyhow, one FEO’s idea of the ideal isn’t necessarily another’s. 

[Windswept]

You could always email/phone your FEO before the visit. At the end of the day it's up to them to approve.

I've known a simple cable to be accepted but not heard anyone use glue. Not sure rawl bolts would be the best option in this case either.

To fix into light weight blocks I would drill a hole in the back of the safe and then use threaded metal rod fixed in place in the blocks with a chemical resin and bolted inside the safe. But I'm sure your FEO will have seen loads of different fixings and be happy to advise.

[Newbie to this]

Is it not possible to drill some holes in it with it as it is and chem fix some anchors into the wall? Double fixed so to speak, bolts and glue.

Angle chuck attachment may be needed 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Newbie to this

[Genghis]

24 minutes ago, mgsontour said:

My 'inspector' insisted on rawl bolts

 

22 minutes ago, Scully said:

People fix cabinets to nothing more than plaster board, so I wouldn’t worry about it, especially if it’ll take your weight without budging. 
It’s all open to interpretation anyhow, one FEO’s idea of the ideal isn’t necessarily another’s. 

Thanks for the replies. I’m a fairly average size guy - 5’10 and 13 and a half stone. The fact that it takes my full weight very easily is the only reason I’m considering waiting for the FEO visit to see whether they may approve.

14 minutes ago, Windswept said:

You could always email/phone your FEO before the visit. At the end of the day it's up to them to approve.

I've known a simple cable to be accepted but not heard anyone use glue. Not sure rawl bolts would be the best option in this case either.

To fix into light weight blocks I would drill a hole in the back of the safe and then use threaded metal rod fixed in place in the blocks with a chemical resin and bolted inside the safe. But I'm sure your FEO will have seen loads of different fixings and be happy to advise.

Thanks for the reply. It may be a good idea for me to email the FEO in advance. I did this to check that the positioning of my safe would be ok before installation. I wish I’d asked about fixings then too, would have saved me a lot of trouble.

 

Forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but concerning your fixing suggestion, would the safe need to be removed from the wall before this was done?

9 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Is it not possible to drill some holes in it with it as it is and chem fix some anchors into the wall? Double fixed so to speak, bolts and glue.

Angle chuck attachment may be needed 🤨

That’s actually exactly what I’m hoping for, that there is a way to bolt the safe to the wall without ungluing the safe (which sounds like a pain of a job)

[marsh man]

8 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Is it not possible to drill some holes in it with it as it is and chem fix some anchors into the wall? Double fixed so to speak, bolts and glue.

Angle chuck attachment may be needed 🤨

That was exactly what I was thinking , rather than disturb the work that is already done why not drill through the cabinet and the thermo blocks and use the threaded rod with the spring loaded arms on the end , push through the cabinet and the wall till the arms are sprung and then put a washer over the hole with a nut on the top , tighten up and cut off the surplus .

[Windswept]

6 minutes ago, Genghis said:

Forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but concerning your fixing suggestion, would the safe need to be removed from the wall before this was done?

I can't see why it can't be done insitu. You do want to make sure you're not drilling close to the edge of a block.

Depending on the resin instructions, something like a 10mm hole and a 8mm thredded bar. I'd used a large heavy duty washer inside the safe and then a nut.

Other fixings may also be suitable.

[DUNKS]

I would second the chemi bolt idea. Only a few minutes work for the builder. What I would be more concerned about is will your FEO accept a safe in the loft? Mine was not happy about this although my loft is boarded in and all secure. Something about leaving guns out as it's inconvenient to go into a loft to put them away. They all make their own rules.

[London Best]

Just shows how opinions vary. 
When I put my cabinet in he loft in the 1980’s the idea was met with great enthusiasm by firearms licensing because, “it is by far the safest place as virtually no burglar will climb into a loft because there is no way out if they are disturbed.”

[Genghis]

1 hour ago, marsh man said:

That was exactly what I was thinking , rather than disturb the work that is already done why not drill through the cabinet and the thermo blocks and use the threaded rod with the spring loaded arms on the end , push through the cabinet and the wall till the arms are sprung and then put a washer over the hole with a nut on the top , tighten up and cut off the surplus .

 

1 hour ago, Windswept said:

I can't see why it can't be done insitu. You do want to make sure you're not drilling close to the edge of a block.

Depending on the resin instructions, something like a 10mm hole and a 8mm thredded bar. I'd used a large heavy duty washer inside the safe and then a nut.

Other fixings may also be suitable.

Thanks both, I appreciate the ideas. I’ll pass this along to my builder when I see him next week. I feel better knowing there are possibilities that don’t involve removing the safe first.

42 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

I would second the chemi bolt idea. Only a few minutes work for the builder. What I would be more concerned about is will your FEO accept a safe in the loft? Mine was not happy about this although my loft is boarded in and all secure. Something about leaving guns out as it's inconvenient to go into a loft to put them away. They all make their own rules.

 

25 minutes ago, London Best said:

Just shows how opinions vary. 
When I put my cabinet in he loft in the 1980’s the idea was met with great enthusiasm by firearms licensing because, “it is by far the safest place as virtually no burglar will climb into a loft because there is no way out if they are disturbed.”

I had also heard that some FEOs would be concerned with a safe in the loft so I made sure to check this with the firearms department first. I made them aware in my email that I was both - planning to install in the loft, and that it was a horizontal safe as opposed to a traditional upright. I got a positive answer back for both, and still have the email reply just in case it’s queried on the visit. The method of fixing was unfortunately the only thing I didn’t check beforehand.

[Lsto]

When I fitted mine the only government requirements I could find is that the cabinet is 'secured to the fabric of the building'. If it is bonded one side and screwed at the base I would say it's secure. My FAO wanted a frame round mine so it can't be crowbarred off the wall. Best bet is to phone them as each officer has their own interpretation of what is secure.

[Genghis]

5 minutes ago, Lsto said:

When I fitted mine the only government requirements I could find is that the cabinet is 'secured to the fabric of the building'. If it is bonded one side and screwed at the base I would say it's secure. My FAO wanted a frame round mine so it can't be crowbarred off the wall. Best bet is to phone them as each officer has their own interpretation of what is secure.

Thanks, that was actually my understanding as well, which is why I initially had no issues with it being glued to the wall. Especially once I realised how strong the glue was. It wasn’t until someone cast doubts that I started to become concerned myself. 
 

I think what I’ll do is speak to my builder next week when I see him, and see if he is willing to bolt it to the wall as per the advice I received above. If he will do it quickly and cheaply then I may as well to hopefully resolve any potential issues. If not, then I’ll get the name of the glue that he used and contact the FEO and ask if they consider this a valid method of fixing.

 

He did actually build a wooden frame around the safe for me. There’s nowhere around the base that you could get a crowbar 👍

[Tonka54]

If it's any help Genghis, I was in a similar situation a few months ago. (see link to thread below). As you can see, I initially fixed my cabinet into an outside brick built shed, the inner walls of which were breeze block.

I fixed my cabinet to the breeze block using threaded bar and a chemical fix kit from Screwfix (see attached), I did this by drilling through the cabinet whilst it was in place so that the end of the drill bit marked the wall for bolt positioning. I then removed the cabinet and drilled into the wall using a 10mm masonry bit which was double the diameter of the threaded bar, ( to allow room around the threaded bar for the chemical fixative ).

I then placed the cabinet and cut six 100mm lengths of the threaded bar, used the applicator to pump the chemical mix through the holes in the cabinet into the wall and placed a cut length of threaded bar in each of the holes.

Then waited for the chemical mix to cure before fixing the cabinet to the wall with hex nuts.

You could do the same thing, but because your cabinet is already glue fixed you would have to drill 10mm holes through your cabinet and then use large washers.     

 

[Robden]

As an aside, my FLO said that, unless there is easy access, he wasn't happy with storing guns in the loft/attic, as some people will feel that they can't be ***** to do the ladders/climbing etc, for the sake of the few days before shooting again.   TBF he also said that, in that circumstance, he would be more thorough when interviewing the applicant. 

[Newbie to this]

And I know people who have safes in their lofts, again there is no consistency.

[London Best]

3 hours ago, Robden said:

As an aside, my FLO said that, unless there is easy access, he wasn't happy with storing guns in the loft/attic, as some people will feel that they can't be ***** to do the ladders/climbing etc, for the sake of the few days before shooting again.   TBF he also said that, in that circumstance, he would be more thorough when interviewing the applicant. 

To access my loft storage I have fitted a large hinge-down loft door with a deadlock. The key is fixed in the end of a yard long dowel which has a hook fixed at the other end. Obviously, the dowel is kept hidden. The dowel reaches to the ceiling to unlock and lower the door. I then reverse the dowel and use the hook to reach down the loft ladder. It all takes seconds and is no hassle at all. It has been like that for over thirty years now.

[Genghis]

7 hours ago, Tonka54 said:

If it's any help Genghis, I was in a similar situation a few months ago. (see link to thread below). As you can see, I initially fixed my cabinet into an outside brick built shed, the inner walls of which were breeze block.

I fixed my cabinet to the breeze block using threaded bar and a chemical fix kit from Screwfix (see attached), I did this by drilling through the cabinet whilst it was in place so that the end of the drill bit marked the wall for bolt positioning. I then removed the cabinet and drilled into the wall using a 10mm masonry bit which was double the diameter of the threaded bar, ( to allow room around the threaded bar for the chemical fixative ).

I then placed the cabinet and cut six 100mm lengths of the threaded bar, used the applicator to pump the chemical mix through the holes in the cabinet into the wall and placed a cut length of threaded bar in each of the holes.

Then waited for the chemical mix to cure before fixing the cabinet to the wall with hex nuts.

You could do the same thing, but because your cabinet is already glue fixed you would have to drill 10mm holes through your cabinet and then use large washers.     

 

Hey, thanks a lot for the advice. Really appreciate you and others giving me some ideas that don’t sounds like a massive upheaval. I’m going to discuss these with my builder on Friday and hopefully have it sorted shortly afterwards.

 

6 hours ago, Robden said:

As an aside, my FLO said that, unless there is easy access, he wasn't happy with storing guns in the loft/attic, as some people will feel that they can't be ***** to do the ladders/climbing etc, for the sake of the few days before shooting again.   TBF he also said that, in that circumstance, he would be more thorough when interviewing the applicant. 

 

4 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

And I know people who have safes in their lofts, again there is no consistency.

 

2 hours ago, London Best said:

To access my loft storage I have fitted a large hinge-down loft door with a deadlock. The key is fixed in the end of a yard long dowel which has a hook fixed at the other end. Obviously, the dowel is kept hidden. The dowel reaches to the ceiling to unlock and lower the door. I then reverse the dowel and use the hook to reach down the loft ladder. It all takes seconds and is no hassle at all. It has been like that for over thirty years now.

I have a relatively low ceiling in the upstairs hall, so can reach the loft handle by hand. I have a key to the lock on my house keys, but also have spares. I have a pull-down loft ladder installed too, so the whole process of opening the loft hatch, pulling down the ladder and climbing up there takes about 30 seconds.

 

I had emailed the firearms department to check if the loft was a suitable location in advance, and their response was though they can’t formally approve without an inspection, there is “no reason why the cabinet can’t go in the loft”. I’ve still got that email in case the issue is raised later.

[Windswept]

One thing I would add about keeping the safe in the loft is take great care carrying the gun up and down. I would put it in a very well padded case as I've known someone drop theirs from the loft.

[Imperfection]

Word of warning about storing guns in your loft or anywhere there is humidity

Couple of years ago i accepted three shotguns (an O/U, Pump action and a single barrel shotgun) from a work colleague who stupidly had allowed his SGC to expire. Licensing told him to transfer them to someone who could legally hold them and i was asked. They were locked inside a standard three gun Battleground cabinet in his loft for a number of years and seldom used. When i accepted them i found they were all rusty.

Remember, rust is contagious and within a few weeks they were making my guns go same route (which they'd never done previously). I own a number of WW2 service rifles which are kinda old and need to be looked after due to their age.

I spent hours stripping the shotguns down to rid them of the rust and then greasing them all up with Frog Lube to prevent anymore damage. He never did re-apply for his SGC and they are my property now so get looked after.

Lofts are worst place to store firearms due to varying temperature differences. In the summer, they get very boiling hot and winter freezing cold and this causes condensation to form.......which metal dont like.

Likewise, i know someone who stored guns in their laundry room and resulted in a Beretta Silver Pigeon amongst others being destroyed due to rusting badly.

So think very carefully about where you want to store them....

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Imperfection said:

Word of warning about storing guns in your loft or anywhere there is humidity

Couple of years ago i accepted three shotguns (an O/U, Pump action and a single barrel shotgun) from a work colleague who stupidly had allowed his SGC to expire. Licensing told him to transfer them to someone who could legally hold them and i was asked. They were locked inside a standard three gun Battleground cabinet in his loft for a number of years and seldom used. When i accepted them i found they were all rusty.

Remember, rust is contagious and within a few weeks they were making my guns go same route (which they'd never done previously). I own a number of WW2 service rifles which are kinda old and need to be looked after due to their age.

I spent hours stripping the shotguns down to rid them of the rust and then greasing them all up with Frog Lube to prevent anymore damage. He never did re-apply for his SGC and they are my property now so get looked after.

Lofts are worst place to store firearms due to varying temperature differences. In the summer, they get very boiling hot and winter freezing cold and this causes condensation to form.......which metal dont like.

Likewise, i know someone who stored guns in their laundry room and resulted in a Beretta Silver Pigeon amongst others being destroyed due to rusting badly.

So think very carefully about where you want to store them....

Strange, mine have NEVER gone even a little bit rusty in the loft, despite the varying temperatures.

[Robden]

17 hours ago, Genghis said:

 

 

 

I have a relatively low ceiling in the upstairs hall, so can reach the loft handle by hand. I have a key to the lock on my house keys, but also have spares. I have a pull-down loft ladder installed too, so the whole process of opening the loft hatch, pulling down the ladder and climbing up there takes about 30 seconds.

 

 

My LFO also said, "Do not tell anyone where you keep the safe keys."

Edited November 7, 2021 by Robden

[Genghis]

2 hours ago, Robden said:

My LFO also said, "Do not tell anyone where you keep the safe keys."

The lock to the loft hatch, not the safe.

[Imperfection]

22 hours ago, London Best said:

Strange, mine have NEVER gone even a little bit rusty in the loft, despite the varying temperatures.

Then your lucky!

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Imperfection said:

Then your lucky!

No, I clean and oil them properly after each outing.