At last our Medical experts and Journals start understanding what seemed obvious.

[RockySpears]

"High COVID-19 vaccination rates were expected to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in populations by reducing the number of possible sources for transmission and thereby to reduce the burden of COVID-19 disease. Recent data, however, indicate that the epidemiological relevance of COVID-19 vaccinated individuals is increasinging. In the UK it was described that secondary attack rates among household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases was simi-similar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (25%for vaccinated vs 23% for unvaccinated)"

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/lancet-scolds-those-claiming-pandemic-unvaccinated

Once Boris had made the admission that those who were vaccinated could catch and pass on the virus, things like Covid Passports actually became Licences to Spread the Infection.  Passport holders are likely to have fewer symptoms, the whole point of the vaccine, therefore by allowing them to attend events and parties was always going to mean greater transmission from vaccinated individuals to other, vaccinated individuals.  This has the result that vaccinated people are probably more likely to catch covid from another, vaccinated person.  Unvaccinated individuals would have more serious symptoms and would more likely absent themselves from events and offices, like all of us used to when we had a cold or flu in the olden days pre-2020.

Yours,

RS

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Does that mean you feel we should be locked down under more restrictions?

[Rob85]

And my understanding right from the outset when the vaccines appeared that they never stated it would stop you catching it or passing it on. Merely it would reduce your chances of catching it to a degree, would reduce your chances of having severe symptoms requiring hospitalisation and ultimately give you a better chance of surviving the virus. 

My understanding is also that peoples immune systems don't/didn't know what covid 19 is so your immune system would be playing catch up from the get go. All the vaccines were going to do is essentially show your immune system what it would be fighting so it can readily produce the required antibodies.

This pandemic will run itself out eventually, I give it another couple of years yet

[Westward]

The idea of covid passes is to reduce hospitalisations not infections. It's only ever been a numbers game, maximise the number vaccinated and thereby minimise the number requiring medical intervention. The 5 million or so refuseniks are the real problem and hopefully covid passes will help to stuff them too.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Westward

[Mice!]

6 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

My understanding is also that peoples immune systems don't/didn't know what covid 19 is so your immune system would be playing catch up from the get go. All the vaccines were going to do is essentially show your immune system what it would be fighting so it can readily produce the required antibodies.

Well I was off colour for 4/5 days, headache, tired, sore after being double jabbed, compare that with what some others on here suffered like @mel b3 and I'll take that with a smile.

[Walker570]

My age means I have been there many times even down to the nit nurse at junior school.  There is little doubt that the main PANIC from the Government was because they realised the NHS was not fit for purpose.  Back in the 40s and 50s we had isolation hospitals, mainly for TB but also dyptheria but these where sold off.  It is this sort of cost cutting in the service which has meant they could not cope with a serious emergency.  Even today if there is a major serious train accident then hospita;ls struggle to cope. This should not be and there should always be an excess of facilities even if mothballed.

Regarding the covid deal, then anyone who does not get the required jabs is an idiot but the so call covid pasports are again just drawing a veil over incompetence and as Nigel Fragae pointed out could actually increase infection.

Suggestion...Get up in the morning and declare that you are going to make the most of that day and hopefully make someone elses day enjoyable too.  I will be up at 05.30 so might just beat you to it.

[RockySpears]

8 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Does that mean you feel we should be locked down under more restrictions?

  Absolutely not.  What I am looking for is is the admission that the vaccines are not helping the population at large or the spread of covid, only the individual, thereby makig the choice to get vaccinated is just that, a choice.  A choice that does not affect others,

 

RS

7 hours ago, Mice! said:

Well I was off colour for 4/5 days, headache, tired, sore after being double jabbed, compare that with what some others on here suffered like @mel b3 and I'll take that with a smile.

  Again, how sick I might be is my choice, I think I will be OK.  I might suffer more, but that is my choice,

RS

[Smokersmith]

As the German Health Minister put it .. in the spring everyone will be either:-

Vaccinated

Recovered or

Dead

Take your pick ….

[Mice!]

13 minutes ago, RockySpears said:

Again, how sick I might be is my choice, I think I will be OK.  I might suffer more, but that is my choice,

That's possibly the strangest thing I've ever read, you have no choice how sick you get, I had the vaccine because what I read said that when I caught covid that the symptoms would be reduced and less chance of being hospitalised.

Most folk not having the vaccine are probably not yet 30 and feel if they do catch covid they won't come to any harm.

[Wymondley]

11 minutes ago, RockySpears said:

What I am looking for is is the admission that the vaccines are not helping the population at large

But they are, once vaccinated you are far less likely to end up ill in hospital.

Many people have suffered or died of other conditions whilst waiting for treatment because the hospitals were full of covid patients.

With a vaccine that reduces the effects of covid to that of a bad cold in the majority of people, it doesn't matter how many are ever infected, they're not likely to require hospital treatment.

Then perhaps we can get back to normality and the NHS can get back to those on it's waiting lists, before it's too late for some of them.

Not being jabbed without a medical reason is selfish in the extreme.

Anyone know the current % of people hospitalised with covid who are unvaccinated, I can't find it?

[RockySpears]

4 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

Anyone know the current % of people hospitalised with covid who are unvaccinated, I can't find it?

  Why not look at the % of hospitalised that ARE vaccinated?

5 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

because the hospitals were full of covid patients.

No they are not.  I have had 2 hospital appointmemts in the last month, both with only 6 weeks waiting.  Nothing life threatening,

 I have experienced no problems, nor my mother in law's knee ops or father in law's cataracts or aunties lung op,

 

RS

[Stonepark]

27 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

As the German Health Minister put it .. in the spring everyone will be either:-

Vaccinated

Recovered or

Dead

Take your pick ….

 

In 5 Years eveyone who has been 'jabbed' will be: -

Dead

Dying from VIAID's

Suffering from acute onset Myocarditus or

Recovered and Healthy

Take your pick!

 

[RockySpears]

15 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

Many people have suffered or died of other conditions whilst waiting for treatment because the hospitals were full of covid patients.

Nope.  No real change:  "Between Q1 2010/11 and Q4 2019/20, the total number of NHS hospital beds decreased by 11% from 144,455 to 128,943. But the number of occupied beds only decreased by 9%, from 122,551 to 111,321. Therefore, the bed occupancy rate increased slightly from 85% in Q1 2010/11 to 86% in Q4 2019/20"

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/hospital-bed-occupancy#background

"By Q4 2020/21 (January to March 2021), the bed occupancy rate had increased to 81%. The number of available and occupied beds also increased, but remained lower than in previous years. "

So easy to find the answers you do not want,

 

RS

3 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

In 5 Years eveyone who has been 'jabbed' will be: -

Dead

Dying from VIAID's

Suffering from acute onset Myocarditus or

Recovered and Healthy

  We could add " Did not partake of government propaganda and are doing fine",

 

RS

Edited December 15, 2021 by RockySpears

[Smokersmith]

40 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

Anyone know the current % of people hospitalised with covid who are unvaccinated, I can't find it?

Fairly clear picture to me ..

[Stonepark]

5 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Fairly clear picture to me ..

Lies, Dam Lies and Statistics........ 99% of people are in hospital overnight for non-covid reasons, these charts (and the tables they are taken from) are merely propaganda designed to frighten and scare people and the warning at the side is confirming they are fiction as if the raw data was collected accurately it could be used to assess vaccine effectiveness.

[Rewulf]

32 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Fairly clear picture to me ..

I thought the graph looked rather odd, a bit too uniform on the percentages across all ages, particularly being as 80 % of the population are double jabbed.

The data is highly suspect.

https://fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/

2 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Lies, Dam Lies and Statistics........ 99% of people are in hospital overnight for non-covid reasons, these charts (and the tables they are taken from) are merely propaganda designed to frighten and scare people and the warning at the side is confirming they are fiction as if the raw data was collected accurately it could be used to assess vaccine effectiveness.

I've got to agree.

[Wymondley]

3 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Fairly clear picture to me ..

Thank you, I clearly lack in google ability.

 

34 minutes ago, RockySpears said:

So easy to find the answers you do not want,

I have no agenda, I just want to get back to normality. 

The sooner everyone is vaccinated the sooner this will be over, IMO.

I struggle to see why you wouldn't have it.

  I looked a bit harder and found this...

An analysis of UK data from the National Immunisation Management Service (NIMS) and the Coronavirus Clinical Information Network (CO-CIN),1 endorsed by the UK Scientific and Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE),2 shows that of 40 000 patients with covid-19 who were admitted to hospital between December 2020 and July 2021 a total of 33 496 (84%) had not been vaccinated.

I'm sorry but I can't see how all those hospitalisations have had no effect on other services.

To me every unvaccinated person in hospital is an unnecessary drain on resources.

1 hour ago, RockySpears said:

Again, how sick I might be is my choice, I think I will be OK.  I might suffer more, but that is my choice,

But if your level of sickness impacts the treatment of others and is avoidable?

Perhaps we should make seat belts or crash helmets optional again, build cars with no ABS or air bags, stop vaccinating children against whatever it is they have these days?

We mitigate against risk every day, not just for ourselves but the benefit of others as well.

Whilst I'm more likely to die from covid (or a multitude of other things) than the vaccine, I'll pick the vaccine.

 

[Stonepark]

7 minutes ago, Wymondley said:

  I looked a bit harder and found this...

An analysis of UK data from the National Immunisation Management Service (NIMS) and the Coronavirus Clinical Information Network (CO-CIN),1 endorsed by the UK Scientific and Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE),2 shows that of 40 000 patients with covid-19 who were admitted to hospital between December 2020 and July 2021 a total of 33 496 (84%) had not been vaccinated.

 

 

Again Lies, Dam Lies and Statistics, this includes the period when there was no vaccinated population, no supposed Covid19 immunity, so the Unvaccinated figures might be representative of the data collected but only because they have stretched the period over such a long time, however they are not 'true' or representative of those who were hospitalised for Covid and not for unrelated or underlying conditions..

 

Breaking down the 33,496,  it is likely 33,200 were in hospital for Non-Covid reasons.........

 

Figures over the last few weeks give a very different answer..... and even those numbers are suspect as it is not clear what they actually went into hospital for......... nor do they show how long they stayed, what treatments they had or could have had had we competent doctors etc (could Ivermectin have prevented an overnight stay) etc etc etc

 

 

[Mungler]

It’s all about risk vs reward.

Most of the anti vaxers I know are under 40 and whilst they spend far too much time falling down crazy on-line rabbit holes, they are so far removed from any health risk from covid I can see why they wouldn’t want to risk a vaccine which offers them no obvious reward. I also understand their frustration at being locked down for 2 years and having 2 years of their best / younger years lost just to protect the NHS (a service they won’t need with any degree of seriousness anytime soon) and to protect the elderly who all seem rather ungrateful (see below) and who may well be coffin dodging because of the previous ‘light touch’ flu winters we’ve enjoyed.

Conversely, if you’re over 50, fat, unhealthy, already ill (or all of these) you will understandably be chugging down whatever the government says you should in order to stay alive a bit longer. You will also probably spend a large amount of your time on line arguing that the youngsters are being selfish for putting you at risk and that there should be more lockdowns, curfews and maybe martial law.

 

[ordnance]

Quote

Figures over the last few weeks give a very different answer..... and even those numbers are suspect as it is not clear what they actually went into hospital for......... nor do they show how long they stayed, what treatments they had or could have had had we competent doctors etc (could Ivermectin have prevented an overnight stay) etc etc etc

I see we also have PW experts that know more than doctors treating Covid patients, if we knew there were so many experts out there the country could save a fortune training all those doctors. 

[Smokersmith]

Unfortunately the only anit-vaxxers with very deep seated views who change their minds are the ones about to be ventilated.

 I’ve connections with 3 … 2 are dead.

[Rob85]

One of our engineers who sometimes works with me has a daughter who works in northern irelands busiest ICU ward, information coming back from her last time we spoke was every single patient at that time in ICU with covid was unvaccinated.

[RockySpears]

16 hours ago, Wymondley said:

But if your level of sickness impacts the treatment of others and is avoidable?

So let us not treat the fat, the drunk, the overdosed, the sportsmen and women with broken bones, cluttering hospitals each Saturday and Sunday,  the car crash victims, the smokers etc etc etc.  All of these are caused by the reckless, voluntary action of an individual.

Why pick on the unvaccinated when there are so many more doing stuff that ends in hospitalisations?

 

16 hours ago, ordnance said:

I see we also have PW experts that know more than doctors treating Covid patients

  There are many many doctors who do  NOT agree with the current vaccination regime.  Hell, even Government doctors do not agree with universal vaccination:

"The assessment by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) is that the health benefits from vaccination are marginally greater than the potential known harms. However, the margin of benefit is considered too small to support universal vaccination of healthy 12 to 15 year olds at this time."

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/jcvi-issues-updated-advice-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-12-to-15

The current regime is NOT medically lead, it is Politically lead

 

9 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

Unfortunately the only anit-vaxxers

  Please don't call me that, I have probably been vaccinated with more vaccines than most due to foreign travel, ad hominem attacks are really not warranted.

The current covid "vaccines" did not even warrant that description, so much so that the CDC had to change the definition of a vaccine in September 2021, so the new "treatments" could then be called vaccines.

"Before the change, the definition for “vaccination” read, “the act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Now, the word “immunity” has been switched to “protection.” "

You no longer get "immunity" from a vaccine, only some level of "protection".

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by RockySpears

[Mice!]

26 minutes ago, RockySpears said:

So let us not treat the fat, the drunk, the overdosed, the sportsmen and women with broken bones, cluttering hospitals each Saturday and Sunday,  the car crash victims, the smokers etc etc etc.  All of these are caused by the reckless, voluntary action of an individual.

Why pick on the unvaccinated when there are so many more doing stuff that ends in hospitalisations?

Whilst all that you have said can and do end up in hospital,  they don't close entire wards restricting the numbers that can be treated,  covid does.

[ordnance]

Quote

 

The current covid "vaccines" did not even warrant that description, so much so that the CDC had to change the definition of a vaccine in September 2021, so the new "treatments" could then be called vaccines.

"Before the change, the definition for “vaccination” read, “the act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.” Now, the word “immunity” has been switched to “protection.” "

You no longer get "immunity" from a vaccine, only some level of "protection".

 

More rubbish going around the net, some people will believe anything. All a cunning plan by the CDC 🙄

The Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary defines immunity as “a condition of being able to resist a particular disease.” Taber’s Medical Dictionary defines it as, “Protection from diseases, [especially] from infectious diseases.” Harvard’s medical dictionary defines it as, “The body’s ability to resist infection and disease.” The Oxford Concise Medical Dictionary echoes all of them, saying immunity is “the body’s ability to resist infection.”

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by ordnance