Worst season in 22 years

[Weihrauch17]

What's the bet hard weather will return as soon as the season ends!! 

[Old farrier]

11 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

What's the bet hard weather will return as soon as the season ends!! 

Probably will however that won’t help the situation 

personaly think keepers practice will have to change 

or it’s highly probable that the same will happen next year 

 

[Weihrauch17]

I was being tongue in cheek, I know it's too late for this year.  If we keep getting mild winters what do you suggest regarding changing practices?

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I was being tongue in cheek, I know it's too late for this year.  If we keep getting mild winters what do you suggest regarding changing practices?

Different birds better food more vermin control

change the way you drive the birds or walk them up they need to have somewhere to go to from the flush points 

maybe where they always flew to is grown in so possibly some work parties clearing brambles or cutting out some trees 

hard to say without seeing it 

only thing I do know is if it’s not working you have to change something 

try going to the point most birds are usually flushed from and look where they used to go look at it from the birds perspective 

what’s grow what’s changed what could you change maybe a tree has blown over in a storm or maybe a field of crops normally there is no longer grown has your neighbours crops changed maybe from cabbage to maize 

all should be considered 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Old farrier

[tiny tim]

We have had a really good season this year.   Changed the way the drives are driven and it has worked 

more work parties and better feed has made a difference 

[Jim Neal]

I won't be crass and quote everyone's comments above, but I'm glad I made sense to a few people

@Weihrauch17 I personally feel that seasons like this really show up any weaknesses in a shoot.  That could be general policy or just something one-off that's happened during the particular year.  Being really brutal, it's quite common that the one bloke in charge thinks he's always right and won't accept any change suggested by anyone else.  Put up and shut up, else #### off are often the only options.

With us, it's because we have had a policy of being a very affordable "working man's" shoot since the inception of the syndicate some 12 years ago.  This has meant we haven't had the money to build new pens, we stock ex-layers, we don't use pellet for long enough after release, never have cracked maize to help hold them... the list goes on...

In total between 2 pens I lost 25% of my birds to disease this year.  I look after 50% of the shoot's birds, so that's a big hit.  Embarrassing and frustrating for me, disappointing for the guns.  We're pretty much shot out now, having scraped together a bag of 37 on Thursday with two more official days plus beaters' day still to go!

My advice is if you go for ex-layers again next year hit 'em hard early on, take no prisoners.  Try to get them as late as you can as well, although very often that is non-negotiable with the game farmer unfortunately.

One other thing I meant to say before is that there are two types of ex-layer.  Caught-up birds that have lived wild are notorious for doing the off as soon as they hit the ground in your pen.  You could have been sold some several-year old birds that might even have been sold once or twice before as ex-layers!  Roadrunner has trouble keeping up with them.

Over-wintered birds that a game farm has kept back for laying stock are a completely different animal.  They are tame, stupid, and haven't had their "wild" instincts activated yet, so if you can keep them rooted to a pen for a month or so they will come back to it as "home" the same way poults do if the wood is decent enough roosting.  The only really big flaw with these type of layers is they've been kept in a constant state of a sanitised environment and continuous antibiotics pumped into them to combat diseases that go round like wildfire in a game farm.  They've got no natural resistance, so as soon as you chuck them out in a wood they get sick.  You need to medicate them straight away, and probably again a month or so later.  Otherwise you get the problems we've had, every year the disease level in the ground gets higher and you lose more and more birds.

Best of luck with it 👍

[Weihrauch17]

Thx Jim and everyone else for the great advice.  We only stocked ex layers this time because we expected more restrictions this year before Xmas and last year the 700 Poults we put down were too small to shoot at the start of last season and then it was lockdown so that was that.  Strange times for us all in many ways but we will keep going.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[scolopax]

I will go against the consensus and say you can have plenty of foxes and lots of game on the ground. I have seen it myself in days past on hunting estates.  What you cannot have is foxes on a wild bird shoot, but they are few and far between apart from grouse of course.  Helps to reduce numbers drastically before release rime but once pheasants are going to roost and especially once shooting starts foxes are not doing a great deal of harm.  
 

Foxes are moving around at this time of year so by killing them a vacancy is created which is quickly filled, that is the reason for the numbers shot in these last few weeks, not that there were seventeen on the ground at anyone time.

[scolopax]

On 03/01/2022 at 00:40, Jim Neal said:

Forget about foxes, magpies, dog walkers, loch ness monsters, bigfoots or whatever anyone else wants to blame.  It's all irrelevant.  None of the above will have a significant impact upon your returns.

When the weather is as mild as it has been this past autumn/winter, the birds don't have to rely on the food you put out.  Simple as that.  You can't dictate to them where they should be, therefore you just won't see as many come out of your drives.  They have simply gone meandering about, browsing for what they can find naturally, and have no urgent need to be near your feeders and pens.

However, further to that I feel that your stocking density related to the number of shoots is way out of balance.  

Firstly, stocking density has a massive influence on pheasants' behaviour.  You don't release anywhere near a high enough number of birds to make them rely on your feed.  I had my eyes opened to this a couple of years ago.  I had losses to disease of over 200 out of a pen of 650 which served three drives outside the wood.  At the end of August we were offered 900 birds at an almost give-away price, so in they went.  At season's end it was the best return on a pen I've ever had by a long, long way.  You couldn't get rid of the birds.  Even the morning after a shoot they were climbing over each other to get back into the covers and feed.  That's all down to competition for the food, so if you don't put enough birds down you won't get them "hooked" on your food supply.

Secondly, shooting pressure.  Going after them 10 times per season is never going to work with that few birds.  As you thin them out it becomes a game of diminishing returns.  Less birds going to your drives, less will follow, the more they just split up and go their own way.  You'd get better returns shooting them 5 times a season rather than 10.

To enjoy more success on the keeping side and better shooting throughout the season, whoever is in charge needs to get the paying guns to swallow a dose of reality and up their fees so you can put more birds down and cover the cost of feeding them.  Keep them on pellet for a bit longer and have a couple of tons of cracked maize to mix with your hand-fed wheat in order to hold them better. 

And if someone could convince my shoot captain of the things I've just advised, I'd be really appreciative as I struggle to get a roll of fence wire out of him most years!!!

Agree with just about every word

 

habitat is so important, it is difficult to keep birds if they do not want to be there.  A good game cover, even a few rough corners or half a stubble hand sown with mustard can all help.

 

too many places do not release enough and shoot too often. Many small shoots would benefit from shooting every three weeks not every two.

[Fellside]

On 02/01/2022 at 23:40, Jim Neal said:

Forget about foxes, magpies, dog walkers, loch ness monsters, bigfoots or whatever anyone else wants to blame.  It's all irrelevant.  None of the above will have a significant impact upon your returns.

When the weather is as mild as it has been this past autumn/winter, the birds don't have to rely on the food you put out.  Simple as that.  You can't dictate to them where they should be, therefore you just won't see as many come out of your drives.  They have simply gone meandering about, browsing for what they can find naturally, and have no urgent need to be near your feeders and pens.

However, further to that I feel that your stocking density related to the number of shoots is way out of balance.  

Firstly, stocking density has a massive influence on pheasants' behaviour.  You don't release anywhere near a high enough number of birds to make them rely on your feed.  I had my eyes opened to this a couple of years ago.  I had losses to disease of over 200 out of a pen of 650 which served three drives outside the wood.  At the end of August we were offered 900 birds at an almost give-away price, so in they went.  At season's end it was the best return on a pen I've ever had by a long, long way.  You couldn't get rid of the birds.  Even the morning after a shoot they were climbing over each other to get back into the covers and feed.  That's all down to competition for the food, so if you don't put enough birds down you won't get them "hooked" on your food supply.

Secondly, shooting pressure.  Going after them 10 times per season is never going to work with that few birds.  As you thin them out it becomes a game of diminishing returns.  Less birds going to your drives, less will follow, the more they just split up and go their own way.  You'd get better returns shooting them 5 times a season rather than 10.

To enjoy more success on the keeping side and better shooting throughout the season, whoever is in charge needs to get the paying guns to swallow a dose of reality and up their fees so you can put more birds down and cover the cost of feeding them.  Keep them on pellet for a bit longer and have a couple of tons of cracked maize to mix with your hand-fed wheat in order to hold them better. 

And if someone could convince my shoot captain of the things I've just advised, I'd be really appreciative as I struggle to get a roll of fence wire out of him most years!!!

Agree entirely. Good post.

The ex layers are also a factor however. In my experience they are a complete waste of money and time. The only gain with ex layers is a low wheat spend - as they are not there to eat it…!!

[Scully]

6 hours ago, Fellside said:

Agree entirely. Good post.

The ex layers are also a factor however. In my experience they are a complete waste of money and time. The only gain with ex layers is a low wheat spend - as they are not there to eat it…!!

Can’t agree regarding the ex-layers actually, based on experience. 

[Stimo22]

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

Can’t agree regarding the ex-layers actually, based on experience. 

As a old keeper friend of mine say “there’s a reason that ex layers are cheap, no one in there right mind wants them”

[Scully]

Just now, Stimo22 said:

As a old keeper friend of mine say “there’s a reason that ex layers are cheap, no one in there right mind wants them”

Fair enough. There’s a company in Lancashire making good money from people not ‘in their right mind’. 🙂

They may not suit everyone but they serve a purpose, have a better life, and they suited us down to the ground. 

 

[marsh man]

Apart from one shoot when my car broke down on the way to it , I have been on them all and to be honest we haven't had one bad day , our wild duck drives have been excellent with often around 30 mixed duck in the bag , we had a lot of game left over last year and some more was added this year , most of our main drives are in the centre of the estate so if they do wander they are still on our land , all I can vouch is what I see when the drive is taking place , how the keepering is done is not for me to say , but the keeper have been on the place for 40 odd years and is well respected .

From a lone wild fowlers point of view , this season was above average when we first had the heavy rains and now it is still o k by going by the amount of shooting going on but with far to much water on the marsh land the duck have now got a lot of choice but the numbers in the area remain very high , both geese and ducks and if you do your homework it is not that hard to put something in the bag.

[cuffy]

We've had a pretty good season ,so far .

Ex-layers every year , small shoot once every 3weeks  .

Although when out feeding there doesn't seem to be many about at the moment .

 

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Can’t agree regarding the ex-layers actually, based on experience. 

Glad to hear you’ve had a better result with them than we have. I don’t know a keeper who would take any. We tried them for a couple of years and whatever we did the ex layers just vanished. Penned / released poults are giving us good returns now. 

[WalkedUp]

We had ex-layers in Anglesey with nets over the pens. Couple of weeks before the season the nets were removed and the ex-layers seen no more 🤣 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Glad to hear you’ve had a better result with them than we have. I don’t know a keeper who would take any. We tried them for a couple of years and whatever we did the ex layers just vanished. Penned / released poults are giving us good returns now. 

I don’t know of any keepers who take them either, but we aren’t keepers, which is why we buy them. We all work and therefore don’t have time to commit to poults, so buy ex-layers. They serve a purpose. 
 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Scully

[Fellside]

20 minutes ago, Scully said:

I don’t know of any keepers who take them either, but we aren’t keepers, which is why we buy them. We all work and therefore don’t have time to commit to poults, so buy ex-layers. They serve a purpose. 
 

Have you got one or two neighbouring shoots on your boundaries?

38 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

We had ex-layers in Anglesey with nets over the pens. Couple of weeks before the season the nets were removed and the ex-layers seen no more 🤣 

Yep been there. I think they they are migratory….😆

[Walker570]

Well I shot Prestwold today and there was not a shortage of birds there. Shot our bag in 4 drives just on the outside heavily used drives.

 

Regarding ex layers, we used them for many years on our shoot near Hereford and never had a problem, just arranged the feeders in a circle so they kept coming back to the same place...I'm not kidding.  Used Old English Black Necks not these artsy fartsy sparrows.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Walker570

[jall25]

Sorry to hear this guys

 

We are having our best season in 30 years !

Its all about habitat / feeding and protection

 

I agree with lots of Jim Neals thoughts but if i lost that number of birds to disease i would not consider that sustainable

1 minute ago, jall25 said:

Sorry to hear this guys

 

We are having our best season in 30 years !

Its all about habitat / feeding and protection

 

I agree with lots of Jim Neals thoughts but if i lost that number of birds to disease i would not consider that sustainable

I would even go as far as suggesting too high a stocking density promotes disease and surely re-stocking the same pen with more birds after such large losses may not be the best solution

[Jim Neal]

We managed a 35% return the year we had the extra ones late on.  Most other recent years it's around the 25% mark, give or take.  I think most people would agree that's pretty respectable for ex-layers, when your shoot covers over 2,000 acres with smallish woods dotted all over, and you haven't got any other shoots directly bordering you.

I've heard of consistently worse returns from poults.

The worst birds for wandering we ever had was a batch of 350 melanistics which we put in one pen.  I think they were caught-up.  We managed about 18% on that pen for the season!

[Fellside]

3 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Well I shot Prestwold today and there was not a shortage of birds there. Shot our bag in 4 drives just on the outside heavily used drives.

 

Regarding ex layers, we used them for many years on our shoot near Hereford and never had a problem, just arranged the feeders in a circle so they kept coming back to the same place...I'm not kidding.  Used Old English Black Necks not these artsy fartsy sparrows.

Interesting - perhaps we had the artsy fartsy sparrows then….?!

I do think it helps if there are good neighboring shoots to keep general numbers up in  the wider area. Strangely I always found the hen birds wandered more - big groups of just hens.

[jall25]

We will perhaps achieve - 55 / 60 % this year on the pheasants and 50 % on our partridge ( we could easily do more but i have 2 covey of grey that we released and wont now shoot ) 

One of the keys to our success has been the use of supplementary feeding of sunflower seeds into the game crops and on rides / flushing points

I hand feed these a couple of times a week - the birds love it and dont wonder a great deal

I also built various small water sources / splash ponds and these are simply magnets for game and wildlife

[Jim Neal]

4 minutes ago, jall25 said:

I agree with lots of Jim Neals thoughts but if i lost that number of birds to disease i would not consider that sustainable

I would even go as far as suggesting too high a stocking density promotes disease and surely re-stocking the same pen with more birds after such large losses may not be the best solution

I don't consider it sustainable either!  I have been tearing my hair out the last 3 seasons.  The pen is being moved this year after several years of my campaigning!

It certainly isn't the best solution to re-stock into a diseased pen but they went in with a dose of antibiotics, had a ton of pellet thrown at them and then the wire lifted all within about a fortnight.  I literally moved all feed from the pen out to the drives to avoid holding any in the diseased area, which was a big gamble but it paid off: the pre-existing birds were already going up to the covers so I just hoped the new ones would latch on to them and be led to the food.  It worked, thankfully.