General Licence is this the end for roost shooting?

[Gas seal]

Hi Sweet11-87 you shouldn’t be put off by the license, we have used it for a long time. If you have authority and keep to the conditions you can use it. No need to apply or register. I don’t think woodpigeon would have open season as they are a protected bird and native to U.K..  I shoot mainly urban woodpigeon , they time there breeding as the crops are ripening in summer. If pigeons have a shooting season l would have to apply for a licence to shoot them out of season. I have noticed less people shooting pigeons since the licence was suspended, and then renewed. When we had the warm calm spell a few weeks ago I shot pigeons feeding with a 22  rf and then were they were roosting with a shot gun. If asked I could explain my actions. 

[udderlyoffroad]

Oh dear, it seems some people on this thread really should read the licence!

It's here.  (For England!)

Yes, it's deliberately written in vague language, no it does not mention roost shooting.  However, it would have to be expressly forbidden within the text of the licence.

You will never get a clear list of ten-commandment style, thou shalts and thou-shalt-nots from secondary legislation like this - it would take ages to draft and the law of unintended consequences would wreck havoc on all of us.  To those who would wish for such a thing, all I can say is, be damn careful what you wish for.  That, or move to Germany, spend lots of time and money studying for your hunters licence, submit to regular testing of your marksmanship, and woe betide you if you accidentally shoot the wrong species whilst still new and inexperienced.

/rant

As some people, who frankly should know better, were confused about whether it was a criminal offence, read the opening paragraph:

Quote

The ‘Secretary of State’[footnote 1] has issued WML-GL42 (this licence) under the powers in Section 16(1)(j) and (k), and (5), of the ‘1981 Act’[footnote 2]. This licence authorises activities that would otherwise be a criminal offence under Part 1 of the 1981 Act.

All I can say with respect to the OP, is that I hope he attended the interview with his legal representative present.

I've said it before, but if the police turn up to your permission, frankly the least of your worries will be whether or not you are complying with every last paragraph of the GLs!

[Fellside]

At the end of the day none of us are familiar with the circumstances in which the local constabulary intervened. However. roost shooting per se is not illegal and I don’t think anybody should be put off by this news. If the pigeons are habituated in terms of roosting and causing crop damage in a certain locality - it is perfectly acceptable to disrupt that activity by shooting. 

The challenge with our GLs (and it’s a nice challenge to have) is that they are loosely written and full of contradictory addendums. This gives us a certain amount of freedom, but also causes endless confusion and misinterpretation within the shooting community. What is more important here, is the spirit and context of the GLs, I’m terms of their intended use. 

[Sweet11-87]

12 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Sweet11-87 you shouldn’t be put off by the license, we have used it for a long time. If you have authority and keep to the conditions you can use it. No need to apply or register. I don’t think woodpigeon would have open season as they are a protected bird and native to U.K..  I shoot mainly urban woodpigeon , they time there breeding as the crops are ripening in summer. If pigeons have a shooting season l would have to apply for a licence to shoot them out of season. I have noticed less people shooting pigeons since the licence was suspended, and then renewed. When we had the warm calm spell a few weeks ago I shot pigeons feeding with a 22  rf and then were they were roosting with a shot gun. If asked I could explain my actions. 

i know how it all works, its just absurd how many stories you hear of people geting agro and drama over how open to interpritation it is since it got suspended and renewed. its all well and good you being able to explain your actions  and thats all the GL states you need to do but will the the autoritys deem it justified becasue it seems thats on the table now regardless of what the GL says. 

its not  that im not sure about the law, i very much am its just even when youre completely in the right storys like this just keep popping up and seem to go on some time and its makes me wonder somtimes is it worth the risk to my other shooting for what i get out of it. 

wildfowling on nature preserves has a list of rules  an arm long but they are black and white with numerical values, dates and maps with solid black lines. it cannot be interprited anyother way. no technicalitys one way or another. its safe.

 

[Fellside]

I know it seems absurd and frustrating, however these occurrences of pigeon shooters being challenged are very rare in real terms. If the person who had his roost shooting interrupted has not done anything silly (?), they are not likely to be charged, as a criminal offence can not be proven. It’s not going to be a case of “look sarge’, I found two of the 9 dead pigeons to contain only clover in their crops!……..Shall I nick him?” Really, this is a storm in a tea cup. It is highly likely, as is so often the case, that the police have been dragged in to a non-issue, by some members of the public who reported something they BELIEVE or WISH to be an offence, but which later transpires not to be. 

The only real problem here, if (and I say IF) the roost shooter has not committed a different offence not yet revealed, is the hassle factor. That is, the poor chap has to go through all the rigmarole, interruption and legal process, to no doubt be told that he has not committed any offence. 
 

[udderlyoffroad]

5 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

its just absurd how many stories you hear of people geting agro and drama over how open to interpritation it is since it got suspended and renewed.

1) For the most part, they're just that, stories.  Only ever second hand.  Yet to hear much if anything from an first-hand source.

2) The licences were even woolly-er before the suspension and renewal, it's just nobody had really bothered to read them, much less challenge them.

5 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

its all well and good you being able to explain your actions  and that's all the GL states you need to do but will the the autoritys deem it justified becasue it seems thats on the table now regardless of what the GL says. 

It's not for the 'authorities' to deem it justified, it's for a crown court to decide.  Which, again, was always on the table.

Part of the reason we never hear of prosecutions under the act for not complying with the terms of the GL, would be the difficulty in obtaining an easy conviction.

4 hours ago, Fellside said:

It is highly likely, as is so often the case, that the police have been dragged in to a non-issue, by some members of the public who reported something they BELIEVE or WISH to be an offence, but which later transpires not to be. 

Spot on.

Once again, if the police turn up, you'd better know you're actually on the land you have permission to shoot, and that they can get hold of the landowner, and you have your SGC close to hand.  Those are the main obstacles, before we get onto the technicalities of the GL.

[Fellside]

51 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

1) For the most part, they're just that, stories.  Only ever second hand.  Yet to hear much if anything from an first-hand source.

2) The licences were even woolly-er before the suspension and renewal, it's just nobody had really bothered to read them, much less challenge them.

It's not for the 'authorities' to deem it justified, it's for a crown court to decide.  Which, again, was always on the table.

Part of the reason we never hear of prosecutions under the act for not complying with the terms of the GL, would be the difficulty in obtaining an easy conviction.

Spot on.

Once again, if the police turn up, you'd better know you're actually on the land you have permission to shoot, and that they can get hold of the landowner, and you have your SGC close to hand.  Those are the main obstacles, before we get onto the technicalities of the GL.

Indeed. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Once again, if the police turn up, you'd better know you're actually on the land you have permission to shoot, and that they can get hold of the landowner, and you have your SGC close to hand.  Those are the main obstacles, before we get onto the technicalities of the GL.

I have been approached three times by uniformed Police, two civilian and one RAF intent on stopping me shooting.

Each time at separate pieces of ground, I have unloaded my gun and chatted with the Policeman.

Each time they have been ignorant of the law and they have asked me for the name of the landowner?

Each time I have politely pointed out that I have full permission to be shooting there and that they have invariably checked my car Number Plate details, found I have a valid SGC, my name and address, that the vehicle is roadworthy, taxed and insured.

I then ask them just what they are wasting both of our precious time for?

[Gas seal]

The old license needed to be changed that’s why we have a new one, and it’s for two years now. The license we are discussing is to prevent serious damage to crops, and contains details how to use it. I don’t think anything is left out, it details the fire arms and country side laws. When the license was rightly revoked we all wanted a new one. Now we have one we seem to be looking for loopholes to be able to use it. When starlings came off the license and Canada geese were included on the license not many shooters new about it or even new about the license. I’ve been approached by the police many times and explained what I was doing it’s not a problem it’s their job. I don’t need a license to shoot game ,but l need a license to shoot pigeons because pigeons are protected by law . No one is going to give step-by-step instructions on how to kill a woodpigeon. I wonder if any members destroy eggs and nests of woodpigeon. It seems the only allowable action not discussed. Shooting young rooks out of trees was/is a country pastime. 

[dipper]

I would think most police are far to busy to get involved in something like this.

[Vince Green]

On 05/01/2022 at 15:03, chesterse said:

A friend of mine told me of a recent event in Lincolnshire where a guy was out roost shooting pigeon with the landowner’s permission.

Some antis turned up with the police and told him he was breaking the law as the birds he was shooting at were not in the process of doing crop damage. It also raises the question about shooting over not productive crops like cut maize or beans/peas left over from harvest.

Any thoughts on how we stand? The guy in question is going to be interviewed by the police.

What the antis said is probably true

 You can be sure they did their homework very carefully before they acted. A formal complaint would have been submitted to the police stating chapter and verse how the licence is being breached. The police are then bound to act.

You are only allowed to shoot a pigeon in order to protect a crop from that pigeon at that time

No crop no General Licence.  The same applies to over stubble. No crop at risk.

Decoying gets a bit grey too because you are luring them in rather than dealing with an on going actual problem.  All stuff that the antis can exploit

This has been  done several times on different forums over the years and although many contributors have been totally outraged by the suggestion that it is not their god given right to shoot any pigeon they can draw a bead on actually its not.

Another area I am sure the antis will be focusing on to is paying for permission to shoot pigeons. Everybody that I know who shoots pigeons pays for the privilege.  Often quite a big sum.  £200 a day has been mentioned in the home counties to the North of London. Cash in hand of course.

Couple that to the fact that permission forms appear to be routinely sent out with SGC applications and renewals  now.

The man who runs our Club clay pigeon section is constantly being asked to sign these permission forms. He has given up saying "No you don't need this for a SGC " it just pees off the member trying to get his renewal or application processed.  Probably fighting a battle with his doctors surgery as well.

Yet another concern for people in rented accommodation is that their tenancy agreement is a cut and paste download agreement from an external  agency. Virtually all these agreements say no guns no ammunition no inflamable or explosive goods, no toxic substances etc. No holes to be drilled in the walls.

And the police are asking to see tenancy agreements now. I wonder why?

Edited February 12 by Vince Green

[Stonepark]

34 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

What the antis said is completely 100%  true

 You can be sure they did their homework very carefully before they acted. A formal complaint would have been submitted to the police stating chapter and verse how the licence is being breached. The police are then bound to act.

You cannot act in advance of a perceived future risk

You are only allowed to shoot a pigeon in order to protect a crop from that pigeon at that time

No crop no General Licence.  The same applies to over stubble. No crop at risk.

Decoying gets a bit grey too because you are luring them in rather than dealing with an on going actual problem.  All stuff that the antis can exploit

This has been  done several times on different forums over the years and although many contributors have been totally outraged by the suggestion that it is not their god given right to shoot any pigeon they can draw a bead on actually its not.

Another area I am sure the antis will be focusing on to is paying for permission to shoot pigeons. Everybody that I know who shoots pigeons pays for the privilege.  Often quite a big sum.  £200 a day has been mentioned in the home counties to the North of London. Cash in hand of course.

Couple that to the fact that permission forms appear to be routinely sent out with SGC applications and renewals  now.

The man who runs our Club clay pigeon section is constantly being asked to sign these permission forms. He has given up saying "No you don't need this for a SGC " it just pees off the member trying to get his renewal or application processed.  Probably fighting a battle with his doctors surgery as well.

Yet another concern for people in rented accommodation is that their tenancy agreement is a cut and paste download agreement from an external  agency. Virtually all these agreements say no guns no ammunition no inflamable or explosive goods, no toxic substances etc. No holes to be drilled in the walls.

And the police are asking to see tenancy agreements now. I wonder why?

He is protecting the tree buds from being nipped by the pigeons which affects the trees growth!

[chesterse]

Whist talking about roost shooting I’ve noticed quite a lot happening on a Sunday afternoon and evening near us. Is this the done thing or am I old fashioned?

[udderlyoffroad]

13 hours ago, Vince Green said:

You are only allowed to shoot a pigeon in order to protect a crop from that pigeon at that time

No crop no General Licence.  The same applies to over stubble. No crop at risk.

Decoying gets a bit grey too because you are luring them in rather than dealing with an on going actual problem.  All stuff that the antis can exploit

Many people, including BASC's guidance on their website, disagrees with the above.  Crack on.

 

38 minutes ago, chesterse said:

Whist talking about roost shooting I’ve noticed quite a lot happening on a Sunday afternoon and evening near us. Is this the done thing or am I old fashioned?

You mean because it's a Sunday?  If there is a god, I'm hell-bound anyway, shooting on a Sunday will hardly matter come the day of reckoning.  

I do try an avoid banging away near the small number of houses on my perm around Sunday lunchtime, but roost shooting as we heard towards dusk?  Crack the heck on.

[Scully]

42 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Many people, including BASC's guidance on their website, disagrees with the above.  Crack on.

 

You mean because it's a Sunday?  If there is a god, I'm hell-bound anyway, shooting on a Sunday will hardly matter come the day of reckoning.  

I do try an avoid banging away near the small number of houses on my perm around Sunday lunchtime, but roost shooting as we heard towards dusk?  Crack the heck on.

This. ☝️

[Fellside]

The conclusion reached now is the same as every time it repeats on PW: ‘keep calm and carry on’. 

[marsh man]

9 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Many people, including BASC's guidance on their website, disagrees with the above.  Crack on.

 

You mean because it's a Sunday?  If there is a god, I'm hell-bound anyway, shooting on a Sunday will hardly matter come the day of reckoning.  

I do try an avoid banging away near the small number of houses on my perm around Sunday lunchtime, but roost shooting as we heard towards dusk?  Crack the heck on.

We have two clay pigeons clubs near us that shoot most weeks on a Sunday , you can check your watch and you will hear the first shot at the stroke of 10 am , bang on , not a minute before and not a minute after and by 1pm it is all over for another week , often well before that if it is raining as these boys don't like getting there guns wet 

[Mable]

20 hours ago, marsh man said:

We have two clay pigeons clubs near us that shoot most weeks on a Sunday , you can check your watch and you will hear the first shot at the stroke of 10 am , bang on , not a minute before and not a minute after and by 1pm it is all over for another week , often well before that if it is raining as these boys don't like getting there guns wet 

That could well be my club, I'm often in the car on the way home at 1020 after a 50 bird shoot🤣

[marsh man]

29 minutes ago, Mable said:

That could well be my club, I'm often in the car on the way home at 1020 after a 50 bird shoot🤣

Belton gun club  ??

[Vince Green]

You can be sure that when the antis learn a trick it stays learned.

I have read the GOV.org website right through and it does say specifically "to protect A crop" not protect crops in general. That's a tricky one. 

Down here in Cornwall they shoot pigeons on dairy farms and sheep farms. Tricky again 

But also, it's hard to be specific because, as others have said , it's worded badly. I think it's the landowner who is liable to get his collar felt. Not the shooter. The shooter is merely his agent. 

However, DEFRA requires that a proper written record be kept of all the things that have been tried (and failed) before proceeding to shooting as a last resort. 

These records must be kept for a minimum of three years and produced when asked for. So I hope you have all got your paperwork up to date.

I was actually very shocked by the size of the fines and the consequences of being found guilty if you get caught. It is a criminal offence.  You could even go to jail although thats highly unlikely.

I thought is was a don't be a naughty boy and let off with a warning not to do it again

So let us see where this runs to. The antis will be passing this round on their websites and you can be sure they will be considering their options.

[udderlyoffroad]

17 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

However, DEFRA requires that a proper written record be kept of all the things that have been tried (and failed) before proceeding to shooting as a last resort. 

Please could you enlighten us & provide a link where that is stated, and in which country that applies?

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

You can be sure that when the antis learn a trick it stays learned.

I have read the GOV.org website right through and it does say specifically "to protect A crop" not protect crops in general. That's a tricky one. 

Down here in Cornwall they shoot pigeons on dairy farms and sheep farms. Tricky again 

But also, it's hard to be specific because, as others have said , it's worded badly. I think it's the landowner who is liable to get his collar felt. Not the shooter. The shooter is merely his agent. 

However, DEFRA requires that a proper written record be kept of all the things that have been tried (and failed) before proceeding to shooting as a last resort. 

These records must be kept for a minimum of three years and produced when asked for. So I hope you have all got your paperwork up to date.

I was actually very shocked by the size of the fines and the consequences of being found guilty if you get caught. It is a criminal offence.  You could even go to jail although thats highly unlikely.

I thought is was a don't be a naughty boy and let off with a warning not to do it again

So let us see where this runs to. The antis will be passing this round on their websites and you can be sure they will be considering their options.

Really? Written records kept for three years?

I thought it was all ‘reasonable methods where practical’….quotation marks are mine. 

There will be approx’ 20 of us roost shooting on Friday night this week, on BIG commercial shoot. Local rozzers are gonna be busy cos it’s a HUUUUUUGGGGE wood! 😀

[Vince Green]

18 minutes ago, Scully said:

Really? Written records kept for three years?

I thought it was all ‘reasonable methods where practical’….quotation marks are mine. 

There will be approx’ 20 of us roost shooting on Friday night this week, on BIG commercial shoot. Local rozzers are gonna be busy cos it’s a HUUUUUUGGGGE wood! 😀

DeFRA requirement. See GOV .org General license read down to the bottom.

Total bollo, i know, but don't shoot the messenger, I didn't start this.

But if my interpretation is correct  and its all a bit vague. It's the landowner that could end up in court.

The antis will be on to this now

 

[udderlyoffroad]

Do you not know how to do links?

[Mable]

14 hours ago, marsh man said:

Belton gun club  ??

No😁 I'm not near you. I just meant in general as we wait on the stands till the church bells sound, 1000, then bangety bang. First shots sounds like volley fire from the redcoats in napoleon's war😁

10 hours ago, Vince Green said:

You can be sure that when the antis learn a trick it stays learned.

I have read the GOV.org website right through and it does say specifically "to protect A crop" not protect crops in general. That's a tricky one. 

Down here in Cornwall they shoot pigeons on dairy farms and sheep farms. Tricky again 

But also, it's hard to be specific because, as others have said , it's worded badly. I think it's the landowner who is liable to get his collar felt. Not the shooter. The shooter is merely his agent. 

However, DEFRA requires that a proper written record be kept of all the things that have been tried (and failed) before proceeding to shooting as a last resort. 

These records must be kept for a minimum of three years and produced when asked for. So I hope you have all got your paperwork up to date.

I was actually very shocked by the size of the fines and the consequences of being found guilty if you get caught. It is a criminal offence.  You could even go to jail although thats highly unlikely.

I thought is was a don't be a naughty boy and let off with a warning not to do it again

So let us see where this runs to. The antis will be passing this round on their websites and you can be sure they will be considering their options.

I feel certain that antis not only read forums like this and FB, but are members in probably inactive form. Posts and threads like this are most likely fuel for their inbred stupidity.

Let's face it, who would have thought that in 2024 we couldn't say some of the words we all previously used regularly, ie: Mr, Mrs, Miss etc.

Those minoritys who shout the loudest now appear to set the laws, no matter how ludicrous.