Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Mungler]

Why did Putin invade? Well he / his officials have offered up half a dozen reasons none of which make any sense and all still point to a special military operation which clearly isn’t such. I personally don’t think it’s cocaine, Nazis or NATO - I’d put my money on a land grab to the coast. 

Searching for a reason for an invasion doesn’t change the fact that it’s happened and saying that there must be a ‘reason’ lends a sort of credibility.

5 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Not sure where I stated that.

I didn’t say you did.

I asked the question.

What is the point to pointing out western hypocrisy and where does that lead to next? Serious question. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

'Putin is mad' , is a cop out, it explains nothing, land grab and empire building equally lack evidence or merit. 

Gonna need a reminder. Just why did he invade then?

[Mice!]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

was scoffed at previously, but I genuinely believe the invasion of Ukraine to be a moral issue. The invasion is the most abhorrent, entirely unnecessary and inexcusable act which cannot be supported directly, indirectly or tacitly.

The world slept as Putin previously elbowed his way into his neighbours and the invasion of Ukraine to me is the line that has to be drawn and which has been crossed.

I still struggle when people say it's a moral issue, but no other conflict going on is or was, or doesn't matter because it was twenty years ago.

And I'd say no one slept, it was just a case of no one wanting to get involved,  the countries being invaded didn't affect anyone enough, but for some reason the Ukraine does, I think it was largely down to the numbers of people(women and children) who fled early on tugged at people's heart strings.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Of course not, and no one said that, but if you think this happened on a whim, why would he need a pass, and why not do it 8 years ago, where it would have been over in a month. 

Why wait till conditions were the least favourable? 

Start answering the hard questions, and then you might get the easy answers. 

Because Putin couldn't be sure what Trump would do, so he waited, and here we are.

[mchughcb]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

Maybe so. Does that then automatically  give Putin a free pass to invade Ukraine then?

Yes.

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Yes.

Hard to argue with your in depth response - bizarre though it is. 🙂

 

[mchughcb]

14 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Hard to argue with your in depth response - bizarre though it is. 🙂

 

In mungler's world everything is black and white so it required a binary response.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

Yes.

 

Well, that’s an easy one; you’re wrong.

 

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

In mungler's world everything is black and white so it required a binary response.

Two wrongs don’t make a right 😉

[mchughcb]

You ask a binary question , get a binary answer then dispute it.

[Mungler]

5 hours ago, mchughcb said:

You ask a binary question , get a binary answer then dispute it.

Yes, and that’s because you’re wrong. 

Mind you, giving Putin a free pass to invade a non aggressing neighbour, for whatever reason, is an interesting glimpse into your perspective in this (as if we couldn’t already tell 😆).

.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Mungler

[Gordon R]

Quote

You ask a binary question , get a binary answer then dispute it.

When you made a statement, which is plainly wrong, I did expect a little more explanation. 

I wonder if Burnley Dave has a cousin in Australia.

[mchughcb]

If only I'd said no,I wouldn't have been asked to explain. Darn it.

Edited September 23, 2022 by mchughcb
Too much swearing.

[Mungler]

41 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

When you made a statement, which is plainly wrong, I did expect a little more explanation. 

I wonder if Burnley Dave has a cousin in Australia.

Gordon, worry not. There is no rational explanation and no one needs to hear any more Putin loving nonsense with faux justification for the invasion of Ukraine 😆

Nice to now see though the acceptance of there being an ‘invasion’ and not a special military operation 😆 Indeed the continued adoption of false terminology is also very telling. 

 

 

 

[Newbie to this]

13 hours ago, Mungler said:

What is the point to pointing out western hypocrisy and where does that lead to next? Serious question. 

It just shows how hypocritical we are in the West, we can invade countries that neither want or need us there, and call it a special operation, but when Russia does it they are the devil incarnate. Now I'm in no way saying either is justifiable,  just that they are the same, no matter how long ago it was. We in the west are just a guilty, but somehow it's acceptable.

What is the point in pointing out Russia's invasion is wrong, and where does that lead to next? Serious question.

[Raja Clavata]

18 hours ago, Mungler said:

Your love of all things European has made your skin very very thin on the topic of Brexit or any criticism of the EU.

The next time there’s a brexit / eu thread I shall watch intently on your balanced approach to the debate 😁

No idea why you’re bringing EU and Brexit into this discussion.

Your opinion that I love all things European demonstrates the imbalance of your dislike for them. Equally the same on the EU.

I actually don’t recall us interacting directly on the Brexit thread, you may have been reading my posts on there but, as per usual, you’re clearly weren’t listening to them.

Ironically, it was Rewulf with whom the majority of my discussions on Brexit were had with. We were poles apart but at least held each other in respect.

The thing is, you and I probably actually agree on more things than we differ on e.g. the pandemic, but even on things we agree on I detest your approach to people with an alternative view.

Maybe Monty was right after all…

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Gordon, worry not. There is no rational explanation and no one needs to hear any more Putin loving nonsense with faux justification for the invasion of Ukraine 😆

Nice to now see though the acceptance of there being an ‘invasion’ and not a special military operation 😆 Indeed the continued adoption of false terminology is also very telling. 

 

 

 

You really seem to jump to conclusions. But hey that's okay.

[ditchman]

its a damn good job there wasnt ...twitter...facebook....zoom calls.....tinder....whatsapp...mumsnet...........

during the 2nd world war........it would have never ended...fieldmarshall Montgomery would be checking likes first thing in the morning...then a quick zoom call with stalin............hitler would be complaining that geoballs was a bloody troll....the SS would have control of the dark web

and god only knows what the japs and the chinese would be doing.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

The thing is, you and I probably actually agree on more things than we differ on e.g. the pandemic, but even on things we agree on I detest your approach to people with an alternative view.

This. 

There's no need for the name calling, accusations of shilling, bottling, or putin sympathising, that have no basis in anything I've written here. 

Its like he needs some target to vent his frustration on, yet dismisses the fact we invaded 2 countries 20 years ago, killing hundreds of thousands of men women and children, for nothing. He calls it whataboutery. 

It doesn't justify anything Russia does, but it shows the blatent hypocrisy of our governments, and the subtle manipulation that makes Putin's invasion the crime of the 21st century, and Iraq and Afghan 'freedom missions' 

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

It just shows how hypocritical we are in the West, we can invade countries that neither want or need us there, and call it a special operation, but when Russia does it they are the devil incarnate. Now I'm in no way saying either is justifiable,  just that they are the same, no matter how long ago it was. We in the west are just a guilty, but somehow it's acceptable.

What is the point in pointing out Russia's invasion is wrong, and where does that lead to next? Serious question.

 

I take the point that there is hypocrisy but that doesn't and can't tie the hands of the next government or next generation. I could point to a whole load of differences between what's gone on historically in the middle east and what is now happening in Ukraine, the wholesale targeting of civilians being top of the list but it doesn't matter because the government and people of today can't be ruled or constricted by the dead hand of the government that went before.

On the subject of pointing out the Russian invasion is morally "wrong", that opens the door up to supporting Ukraine. If  Ukraine was happy to roll over, become Russian and didn't want any kit or assistance, then that would have been the end of it. However, despite what the fans of Russia Today will say, we are looking at quite the reverse - we have a well supported Ukrainian leader and what appears to be a highly effective army motivated to repel Russian invaders.

[Walker570]

10 minutes ago, ditchman said:

its a damn good job there wasnt ...twitter...facebook....zoom calls.....tinder....whatsapp...mumsnet...........

during the 2nd world war........it would have never ended...fieldmarshall Montgomery would be checking likes first thing in the morning...then a quick zoom call with stalin............hitler would be complaining that geoballs was a bloody troll....the SS would have control of the dark web

and god only knows what the japs and the chinese would be doing.

Oh don't do that Simon I spilled my lunchtime Spitfire a;l;l down my shirt

I look at that Foreign Minister Lavrov and have visions of him in tight riding breeches and high boots and a monocle giving a straight arm salute.  He is more dangerous than Putin ..... Putin is finished. Just takes time.

[Rem260]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

This. 

There's no need for the name calling, accusations of shilling, bottling, or putin sympathising, that have no basis in anything I've written here. 

Its like he needs some target to vent his frustration on, yet dismisses the fact we invaded 2 countries 20 years ago, killing hundreds of thousands of men women and children, for nothing. He calls it whataboutery. 

It doesn't justify anything Russia does, but it shows the blatent hypocrisy of our governments, and the subtle manipulation that makes Putin's invasion the crime of the 21st century, and Iraq and Afghan 'freedom missions' 

I think you will find that Iraq and Afghanistan were under UN mandates (The world). Not sure if Russia's special operation is under one?

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Rem260 said:

I think you will find that Iraq and Afghanistan were under UN mandates (The world). Not sure if Russia's special operation is under one?

Iraq 1 was sanctioned due to the iraqi invasion of Kuwait. 

Iraq 2 was never sanctioned   and was in fact an illegal act. 

'The 2003 invasion of Iraq by the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, Poland and a coalition of other countries was a violation of the United Nations Charter, the bedrock of international relations in the post-World War II world. '

Afghanistan was sanctioned in order to neutralise al quaeda, but continued far longer after this was achieved, I'm still at a loss to think of any justification or valid reason for nearly 20 years of occupation, that left no other impression than a deep hatred for the west, and piles of bodies and refugees. 

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

I take the point that there is hypocrisy but that doesn't and can't tie the hands of the next government or next generation. I could point to a whole load of differences between what's gone on historically in the middle east and what is now happening in Ukraine, the wholesale targeting of civilians being top of the list but it doesn't matter because the government and people of today can't be ruled or constricted by the dead hand of the government that went before.

A very valid point, which some seem unable to grasp.

[henry d]

6 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

It just shows how hypocritical we are in the West, we can invade countries that neither want or need us there, and call it a special operation, but when Russia does it they are the devil incarnate. Now I'm in no way saying either is justifiable,  just that they are the same, no matter how long ago it was. We in the west are just a guilty, but somehow it's acceptable.

What is the point in pointing out Russia's invasion is wrong, and where does that lead to next? Serious question.

A serious question would be why you put no limits on how far back in history we go. Should those that walked out of Africa and took over neanderthal territory give it back and return to Africa? If not then there are questions over whether we can stop any human from stepping onto any land colonised by other humans no matter what colour their flag is. 

[Gordon R]

It is a bit like the woke brigade, who ignore current slavery or slavery before this country was involved. They select a period of history which suits their purpose. 

Same situation here. Mungler has argued his case on the present time - which I agree with, but some want to rewind a few years to put Russia in a better light. Whatever went on hundreds of years ago or 20 years ago, doesn't make Putin less of a warmonger than he is.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

A serious question would be why you put no limits on how far back in history we go. Should those that walked out of Africa and took over neanderthal territory give it back and return to Africa? If not then there are questions over whether we can stop any human from stepping onto any land colonised by other humans no matter what colour their flag is. 

 

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

It is a bit like the woke brigade, who ignore current slavery or slavery before this country was involved. They select a period of history which suits their purpose. 

Same situation here. Mungler has argued his case on the present time - which I agree with, but some want to rewind a few years to put Russia in a better light. Whatever went on hundreds of years ago or 20 years ago, doesn't make Putin less of a warmonger than he is.

Bang on.