Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[mchughcb]

52 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

So if russia had not invaded ukraine, would this woman have been injured by russian bombs falling on her town in ukraine?


This woman was hoping to have a peaceful pregnancy and not get injured by russia dropping bombs on her town in ukraine, now she is terrified for her and her unborn child

 

Did you ever see the 2 interviews from this russian donbass woman about what happened? If you listen carefully to what she says you will see this appears to be a media setup designed for maximum exposure.

14 minutes ago, clangerman said:

I wonder how many lives could have been saved if people complied with western wishes to save us slaughtering them! 

Millions. Does anybody not think the civilians casualties are very very low compared to Iraq?

[mchughcb]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

1. That's a first world problem. No matter how bad I think my gas bill will be this winter, at least I won't be waking up to find a Russian tank in my living room and my family raped and murdered by Putin's army of trolls.

2. Well, we know how the Israelis love the Iranians. If Russia wants to send hoards of killers drones into civilian areas then Ukraine seeking defensive measures and assistance from others has to be expected surely.

 

How much is the government (other taxpayers) covering your heating bills?

No, the Jews and Arabs will be fighting after this conflict.  You do not want it to spread, Israel has at least 25 nukes.

 

[welsh1]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats right , complied with the Minsk agreements it agreed to , and stopping shelling and slaughtering its own citizens.

Its pretty clear that without any Russian involvement , Ukraine was already divided between east and west , Ukrainian and Russian speaking.
But like Ive said , no one is interested in the voices of people in Donbass.

(Fun fact , when Germany invaded Ukraine in WW2 and took it over in its entirety  , around 250,000 Ukrainians joined the German army, various 'militia' of Ukrainian nationalist sonderkommando , gleefully set about their Jewish neighbours , men women and children , even babies were not spared , slaughtered in the street, or herded into woods and quarries like Babi Yar, stripped naked , beaten and executed.
These werent German soldiers, these were Ukrainians.

Its a testament to that divide between east and west , that for every one who sided with the Germans, five joined the soviet army , and two joined the partisans.
The Ukrainians are obviously not one people , but under leaders like Yanukovic , at least there was peace across the country.
Now you have a civil war , with proxies fighting the cold war again.
Still no sign of any mediators for peace, how strange ?

So if ukraine had done what everyone else wanted russia wouldn't have had to invade it and start killing the people of ukraine.

So it's all ukraines fault, and russia are blameless all they did was illegally invade ukraine and killed its people, but ukraine should have done as it's told so it's their fault.

Glad we cleared that up, russia are innocent , it's not their fault they invaded ukraine and they are not at fault for murdering the people of ukraine.

 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Im sure theres plenty of Ukrainians who didnt want Ukraine to bomb their towns either.

The good bit is , it doesnt matter if it was Russia that killed the civilians, or Ukraine, because you do realise that whoever was responsible , it was still the Russians fault ?
Thats the kind of twisted logic that seems to be predominant in this war, because of the western ideal of Russia being some land of evil doers, long cultivated through film and media, there is no question of Ukraine doing anything wrong, even when caught red handed doing it , its still all Russias fault.

Like wise , if a western actor like the UK or US does something similar (whataboutery alert!) like in Iraq or Afghan, then it gets switched round to the invaded peasants of those countries , and its THEIR fault it happened 

Some people still dont seem to get the subtle manipulations that have been wrought on our psyche.
We are mostly mushrooms , kept in the dark about whats really going on , and fed on the proverbial doo doo, feeling thankful to our masters who will eventually eat us 

Rewulf, you post some good stuff sometimes and I agree with your post about free speech, I hope you have never found my posts disrespectful where our opinions differ. 

All that said, I do struggle to follow your logic, Russia has invaded Ukraine, who at the time was a country at peace and posed no threat at all to Russia. Of course no country or person is perfect and Ukraine is no exception (in fact quite corrupt I believe), but the consequences of this war must surely land squarely at Russia/Putins door? 

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

So if ukraine had done what everyone else wanted

Where did I say that~?
If Ukraine had adhered to the Minsk agreements , its likely they wouldnt have been invaded, but I suppose thats irrelevant ?

 

14 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

So it's all ukraines fault, and russia are blameless

Where did I say that ?
Russia was wrong to invade, Im not sure how many times I have to say that ?

 

16 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Glad we cleared that up, russia are innocent , it's not their fault they invaded ukraine

Where did I say that ?

2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Rewulf, you post some good stuff sometimes and I agree with your post about free speech, I hope you have never found my posts disrespectful where our opinions differ. 

All that said, I do struggle to follow your logic, Russia has invaded Ukraine, who at the time was a country at peace and posed no threat at all to Russia. Of course no country or person is perfect and Ukraine is no exception (in fact quite corrupt I believe), but the consequences of this war must surely land squarely at Russia/Putins door? 

Th fault for the invasion does end with Russia, no one else invaded Ukraine.

But to say they were at peace?
There had been civil war for 8 years !
Plus , there is evidence to suggest that Kyiv were making plans to end that war forcibly, thats not my idea of peace.

[welsh1]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Where did I say that~?
If Ukraine had adhered to the Minsk agreements , its likely they wouldnt have been invaded, but I suppose thats irrelevant ?

 

Where did I say that ?
Russia was wrong to invade, Im not sure how many times I have to say that ?

 

Where did I say that ?

Th fault for the invasion does end with Russia, no one else invaded Ukraine.

But to say they were at peace?
There had been civil war for 8 years !
Plus , there is evidence to suggest that Kyiv were making plans to end that war forcibly, thats not my idea of peace.

"If Ukraine had adhered to the Minsk agreement it likely they wouldn't have been invaded."

 

Stop please just stop and read what you are saying.

Russia invaded Ukraine, it was illegal and thousands are dying.

Russia has no right to invade another country.

[Mungler]

39 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

"If Ukraine had adhered to the Minsk agreement it likely they wouldn't have been invaded."

 

Stop please just stop and read what you are saying.

Russia invaded Ukraine, it was illegal and thousands are dying.

Russia has no right to invade another country.

They’re nuts. They’re too far down the free thought rabbit warren where all tunnels lead to NATO and the US 😆

Did Putin explore all political avenues, was Russia under threat, were there other alternatives to starting an invasion and a war, did the Russians have to shell to rubble civilian targets, even as of today do the Russians have to shell power stations and attack civil infrastructure far behind the battle lines  - the list is obvious and long and you’ll get no sense off about 3 or 4 on here.

I still don’t think it is clear that Putin’s invasion was motivated by some spat inside Ukraine - it’s what a lot of people have alighted to after the event to make some sense of it, but that’s not what the Kremlin have been saying along the way. 

Some people are just a bit broken. 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Mungler

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, welsh1 said:

Are you saying this picture is not correct? are you saying it's not been taken since russia bombed ukraine after invading them illegally?

No I said "what if that picture was taken back in 2016", because the Ukrainians were shelling people in the Donbass region.

You don't seem bothered that the Ukrainians were shelling there own people and I just can't understand it.

Some of the Scottish want independence but we aren't bombing them.

 

[Rewulf]

34 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Russia has no right to invade another country.

What EVER ! NEVER EVER ? 

What about for instance it suspected there might be some terrorists (that used to work for them) hiding in caves in a certain country ?
Or it suspected a country might have some WMD s lurking out in the desert.
What if it wanted to stop the spread of (insert political ideology here) in a country that had nothing to do with them ?

What if it really wanted the resources of that country very badly ?

Can it invade then 

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Some people are just a bit broken. 

Aah , there you are 

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

So if Iraq had done what everyone else wanted (even though it turns out they were) UK & US wouldn't have had to invade it and start killing the people of Iraq.

So it's all Iraq's fault, and UK & US are blameless all they did was illegally invade Iraq and killed its people, but Iraq should have done as it's told (even though they were) so it's their fault.

Glad we cleared that up, UK & US are innocent, it's not their fault they invaded Iraq and they are not at fault for murdering the people of Iraq.

 

I know my edits are just whataboutery, not pointing out hypocrisy. And it doesn't matter right it was years ago.

Again, I'm not defending Russia, they should not have invaded Ukraine, but who are we to judge.

Perhaps if the UN did what they were formed for, Ukraine would now have a UN peace keeping force in Ukraine, instead of an invading army.

I can't say if the UN didn't do it's job in Iraq, they never found any evidence, but we still invaded and systematically started murdering Iraqis. Maybe the UN presence was just a show 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Newbie to this

[Mungler]

In other news, more inexplicable accidents and misfortunes in Russia.

https://metro.co.uk/2022/10/13/another-russian-energy-boss-has-mysteriously-died-in-hospital-17555758/?ito=article.mweb.share.top.link
 

Who needs democracy and a free judiciary when you’ve got Chepiga and Mishkin 😆

[welsh1]

20 minutes ago, Mice! said:

No I said "what if that picture was taken back in 2016", because the Ukrainians were shelling people in the Donbass region.

You don't seem bothered that the Ukrainians were shelling there own people and I just can't understand it.

Some of the Scottish want independence but we aren't bombing them.

 

But this picture wasn't taken in 2016 was it, it was taken this year when russia illegally invaded ukraine and started to kill the ukrainian population for no reason.
And since this picture was taken russia have killed many more innocent people in a country they have no legal right to be in.

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

What EVER ! NEVER EVER ? 

What about for instance it suspected there might be some terrorists (that used to work for them) hiding in caves in a certain country ?
Or it suspected a country might have some WMD s lurking out in the desert.
What if it wanted to stop the spread of (insert political ideology here) in a country that had nothing to do with them ?

What if it really wanted the resources of that country very badly ?

Can it invade then 

Aah , there you are 

Now you try to deflect, you know full well this is about ukraine, and yet you try to deflect it and talk of other wrongs.

It doesn't change the fact that russia illegally invaded Ukraine and are murdering it's population does it?

8 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

I know my edits are just whataboutery, not pointing out hypocrisy. And it doesn't matter right it was years ago.

Again, I'm not defending Russia, they should not have invaded Ukraine, but who are we to judge.

Perhaps if the UN did what they were formed for, Ukraine would now have a UN peace keeping force in Ukraine, instead of an invading army.

I can't say if the UN didn't do it's job in Iraq, they never found any evidence, but we still invaded and systematically started murdering Iraqis. Maybe the UN presence was just a show 

So because everyone else may be wrong or may have commited illegal acts it's ok for russia to invade ukraine?

If you want to start a post about the rights and wrongs of iraq then please do so.

[Newbie to this]

5 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

So because everyone else may be wrong or may have commited illegal acts it's ok for russia to invade ukraine?

 

11 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Again, I'm not defending Russia, they should not have invaded Ukraine, but who are we to judge.

Just pointing out our hypocrisy in the west.

Where was all the faux outrage for Iraq etc.

[welsh1]

7 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

 

Just pointing out our hypocrisy in the west.

Where was all the faux outrage for Iraq etc.

Go start a thread on it and see.

 

[Mungler]

5 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

 

Just pointing out our hypocrisy in the west.

Where was all the faux outrage for Iraq etc.

 

Irrelevant to the invasion and war to hand. 

Set a new thread up. We can then also discuss just how many wrongs make it right for Russia to invade a neighbour, start a war and murder and torture the populous.

[ditchman]

Just now, welsh1 said:

Go start a thread on it and see.

 

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Mice!]

16 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

But this picture wasn't taken in 2016 was it, it was taken this year when russia illegally invaded ukraine and started to kill the ukrainian population for no reason

Yes I know that, no one was bothered about showing pictures when the Ukrainians were killing their own people,  was that not illegal?

By that measure we can bomb the Welsh because they speak a different language can we? Of course we can't.

Do I think the fighting should stop, yes of course I do, but I can't see it happening because outside interests are happy to send the Ukraine weapons,  by the time this is over a lot more Ukrainians will be dead, a lot more of the Ukraine will be rubble and Russia will still be there.

When neither side is willing to negotiate there is going to just be more of the same.

And I know the usual few will say the Ukraine shouldn't negotiate,  Russia should just withdraw but that really isn't happening.

[welsh1]

2 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Yes I know that, no one was bothered about showing pictures when the Ukrainians were killing their own people,  was that not illegal?

By that measure we can bomb the Welsh because they speak a different language can we? Of course we can't.

Do I think the fighting should stop, yes of course I do, but I can't see it happening because outside interests are happy to send the Ukraine weapons,  by the time this is over a lot more Ukrainians will be dead, a lot more of the Ukraine will be rubble and Russia will still be there.

When neither side is willing to negotiate there is going to just be more of the same.

And I know the usual few will say the Ukraine shouldn't negotiate,  Russia should just withdraw but that really isn't happening.

So if russia had not invaded ukraine all those ukranians would not have died would they?

Why should ukraine negotiate? they were invaded.

[Jaymo]

Wow

3900 posts over 155 pages and both sides still opposing each other. 

What ever happened to the old saying ‘agree to disagree’. 
 

It really has run its course don’t you think? 

[Newbie to this]

27 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Irrelevant to the invasion and war to hand. 

Bit not irrelevant to the faux hypocritical outrage on this thread.

29 minutes ago, ditchman said:

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Not happening. 

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

We can then also discuss just how many wrongs make it right for Russia to invade a neighbour, start a war and murder and torture the populous.

Absolutely none, I don't think anyone has said it does.

Bit what made it right for the West's previous invasions and murder sprees.

I know, I know, it's just whataboutery and irrelevant it was years ago, we can now take the moral high ground, knowing those invasions and murders are now wiped out with time (how long does that take again).

Russia are in the wrong, there is no doubt about that.

They should have petitioned the UN to install a peace keeping force, to stop the Ukrainians killing Ukrainians. Instead they decided to invade.

Perhaps the UN should send a peace keeping force in anyway, maybe that will give Russia it's excuse to withdraw, although I highly doubt it will now, they are in it for the long haul and it seems the West is happy for it to continue.

In the meantime the war continues and so does the faux outrage

Edited October 18, 2022 by Newbie to this

[oldypigeonpopper]

2 hours ago, welsh1 said:

"If Ukraine had adhered to the Minsk agreement it likely they wouldn't have been invaded."

 

Stop please just stop and read what you are saying.

Russia invaded Ukraine, it was illegal and thousands are dying.

Russia has no right to invade another country.

Hello, well said , ,

[treetree]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

 

Irrelevant to the invasion and war to hand. 

OK, for relevance how about the Yemen-Saudi Arabia conflict, or Armenia-Azerbaijan. These are both happening now.

Where is your outrage? Where are your demands for support? Where is your condemnation the aggressor? Why aren't you insisting we send billions in weapons to Yemen?

Your moral outrage seems very selective; where was it for the above conflicts  or when the Ukrainian army was shelling the Donbass since 2014?

 

[12gauge82]

47 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Absolutely none, I don't think anyone has said it does.

Bit what made it right for the West's previous invasions and murder sprees.

I know, I know, it's just whataboutery and irrelevant it was years ago, we can now take the moral high ground, knowing those invasions and murders are now wiped out with time (how long does that take again).

Russia are in the wrong, there is no doubt about that.

They should have petitioned the UN to install a peace keeping force, to stop the Ukrainians killing Ukrainians. Instead they decided to invade.

Perhaps the UN should send a peace keeping force in anyway, maybe that will give Russia it's excuse to withdraw, although I highly doubt it will now, they are in it for the long haul and it seems the West is happy for it to continue.

In the meantime the war continues and so does the faux outrage

I really don't believe it's faux outrage. Blair must be one of the most hated politicians ever to have led our country and it spans both the right and much of the left. He led us into an illegal war based on lies and is responsible for countless deaths, imo he should be tried for war crimes. But like others have said, two wrongs don't make a right and putin is as much as a war munger as Blair but right now putins his forces are murdering innocent civilians. 

8 minutes ago, treetree said:

OK, for relevance how about the Yemen-Saudi Arabia conflict, or Armenia-Azerbaijan. These are both happening now.

Where is your outrage? Where are your demands for support? Where is your condemnation the aggressor? Why aren't you insisting we send billions in weapons to Yemen?

Your moral outrage seems very selective; where was it for the above conflicts  or when the Ukrainian army was shelling the Donbass since 2014?

 

If that question were directed at me, I would hold my hands up and say a lack of education on the conflicts, where as Ukraine is very very clear to me. An aggressive country has decided to invade its peaceful neighbour with no legitimate reason. 

[Newbie to this]

14 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I really don't believe it's faux outrage.

Perhaps.

Faux may have been the wrong choice of word, selective would've been better.