Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Mungler]

Far too many people deflecting and not addressing the core issue and that is Putin rolling tanks over a border into a neighbouring country and in the absence of any direct military threat. Indeed, don’t take my view on it - the Kremlin itself has offered up special military operation, Nazis & drug dealers, NATO and latterly war.

Lots of what about the US and what about Yemen though, all entirely irrelevant and part of the search to blame anyone but Putin / Russia and shift the blame onto NATO / the US and anyone else.

As for supplying weapons to the Ukrainians, they’ve asked for them and we’ve supplied them so that they can make a choice as to whether or not they wish to repel their invaders. 

I‘m pleased to see that at least everyone has stopped erroneously using ‘proxy war’ now, and following the like for like example of the US carrying out a ‘proxy war’ against the NAZIS when feeding and arming us during the early dark days of WW2 and which happily resulted in us now not speaking German.

[mick miller]

Yes, it's much simpler now that we have decided not to fight nazis, but sponsor and arm them instead. 

All slightly irrelevant anyway, Ukraine will collapse within a month or so, the people there including the knuckle dragging neo nazis are turning against their puppet president, at this point they can ask for whatever they like, the bulk of the forces they spent almost a decade building up are either dead, surrended or severely injured and the unwillingly conscripts will never learn how to use the equipment in time anyway. 

Still, massive payday if you've got shares in Raytheon I guess? 

[Newbie to this]

35 minutes ago, Mungler said:

As for supplying weapons to the Ukrainians, they’ve asked for them and we’ve supplied them so that they can make a choice as to whether or not they wish to repel their invaders

Should we supply everyone who asks for weapons 

Should we supply them for free?

[mick miller]

13 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Should we supply everyone who asks for weapons 

Should we supply them for free?

Only in the Ukraine is it okay to supply as many weapons as you like, to anyone from kindergarten to care home, with zero checks on where they end up (roaring trade on the black market at present for NLAWs, amongst many other things). 

Everywhere else, especially America of course, nobody except the powerful should have access to them.

It makes perfect sense to me. I can't see how any of these unchecked weapons will end up in the hands of terrorists and end up being used against the very people that supplied them and their foreign interests. Not at all.

As I said, this latest iteration of decision makers seem both malign and as thick as mince. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by mick miller

[Mungler]

14 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Yes, it's much simpler now that we have decided not to fight nazis, but sponsor and arm them instead. 

All slightly irrelevant anyway, Ukraine will collapse within a month or so, the people there including the knuckle dragging neo nazis are turning against their puppet president, at this point they can ask for whatever they like, the bulk of the forces they spent almost a decade building up are either dead, surrended or severely injured and the unwillingly conscripts will never learn how to use the equipment in time anyway. 

Still, massive payday if you've got shares in Raytheon I guess? 

Your love of Russian aggression is truly heartwarming. 

If you are saying Russian victory inside of a month you really are deluded just like Putin - occupying a land mass twice the size of France and when the locals aren’t up for it?

 

11 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Should we supply everyone who asks for weapons 

Should we supply them for free?

 

There’s no such thing as free. My first economics lesson taught me that and WW2 showed we didn’t get anything for free from the US, but then again they were fighting in a European centric world war and suffered more loss of life than most.

[mick miller]

Double post

Edited June 8, 2022 by mick miller

[Newbie to this]

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

There’s no such thing as free.

Maybe "Gift" means something different then 

[mick miller]

Well, we will soon see. But last time I read the international tea leaves, instead of reading opinion pieces in Western media, I predicted that far from Byedumb's prediction of turning the Ruble into Rubble, their policies would end up making it stronger turned out to be correct. Bloombergs best performing currency now, it'll only get stronger. 

Ellensky, like Johnson, is now deeply unpopular in Ukraine so Russia will not need and likely does not desire to conquer the entire territory (although, unlike the Western pundits who all confidently tell us that its not going to plan, the Russian military didn't supply me with a playbook early on, so I'm only guessing here. Nice of them to send one over to the pentagon in advance though). Still, I guess Johnson and Ellensky will have each other for company. Bessie's forever

[Mungler]

13 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Well, we will soon see. But last time I read the international tea leaves, instead of reading opinion pieces on Western media, I predicted that far from Byedumb's prediction of turning the Ruble into Rubble, their policies would end up making it stronger turned out to be correct. Bloombergs best performing currency now, it'll only get stronger. 

Ellensky, like Johnson, is now deeply unpopular in Ukraine so Russia will not need and likely does not desire to conquer the entire territory (although, unlike the Western pundits who all confidently tell us that its not going to plan, the Russian military didn't supply me with a playbook early on, so I'm only guessing here. Nice of them to send one over to the pentagon in advance though). Still, I guess Johnson and Ellensky will have each other for company. Bessie's forever. 

I have been reading the Ukrainian news / Twitter aggregators and you appear to have been reading the Russian - let’s pop back to this thread in a month.

Also I note you name and heap scorn on Boris and Zalensky and the US but in all of your posts I can’t find any criticism of Putin or Russia who are as a simple matter of fact, the aggressing / invading force. You really should cut down on watching RT.

 

13 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Maybe "Gift" means something different then 

I can absolutely assure you that those aren’t ‘free’ and that there is no such thing as ‘free’.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Mungler

[mick miller]

I'm actually looking at both and independent sources for news (but, let's be honest, who is truly independent?). 

The West's coverage has been woeful and laughable. Ghost of Kiev, Snake Island, the list of fake news and faux pa's have been endless. Russian channels are harder to follow, many blocked (as our tiny minds couldn't possibly be exposed to a counter narrative, we might get a fit of the vapours). Independents somewhat easier, but again the sources are generally biased to one side or another. 

I'm not saying definitely 'one month', it may take a while longer but I don't think much more, we're not talking twenty years of maiming and senseless suffering, like our recent stint in the middle east, and I pray for a swift conclusion as the scenes of suffering and injury I've seen have been heartbreaking. 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by mick miller

[Mungler]

Just now, mick miller said:

I'm actually looking at both and independent sources for news (but, let's be honest, who is truly independent?). 

The West's coverage has been woeful and, of I'm honest, laughable. Ghost of Kiev, Snake Island, the list of fake news and faux pa's have been endless. Russian channels are harder to follow, many blocked (as our tiny minds couldn't possibly be exposed to a counter narrative, we might get a fit of the vapours). Independents somewhat easier, but again the sources are generally biased to one side or another. 

I'm not saying definitely 'one month', it may take a while longer but I don't think much more, we're not talking twenty years of maiming and senseless suffering, like our recent stint in the middle east, and I pray for a swift conclusion as the scenes of suffering and injury I've seen have been heartbreaking. 

 

So it’s not a month then until Russian victory.

 

[Blackpowder]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

Far too many people deflecting and not addressing the core issue and that is Putin rolling tanks over a border into a neighbouring country and in the absence of any direct military threat. Indeed, don’t take my view on it - the Kremlin itself has offered up special military operation, Nazis & drug dealers, NATO and latterly war.

Lots of what about the US and what about Yemen though, all entirely irrelevant and part of the search to blame anyone but Putin / Russia and shift the blame onto NATO / the US and anyone else.

As for supplying weapons to the Ukrainians, they’ve asked for them and we’ve supplied them so that they can make a choice as to whether or not they wish to repel their invaders. 

I‘m pleased to see that at least everyone has stopped erroneously using ‘proxy war’ now, and following the like for like example of the US carrying out a ‘proxy war’ against the NAZIS when feeding and arming us during the early dark days of WW2 and which happily resulted in us now not speaking German.

Totally agree

[Newbie to this]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

I can absolutely assure you that those aren’t ‘free’ and that there is no such thing as ‘free’.

Go on then how much did we charge them £££?

[bostonmick]

41 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Go on then how much did we charge them £££?

there will have to be a payback of somekind.if ukraine does not survive this as a country then we the lowly taxpayer will pick up the tab along with all the other things we have to pay for time and timd again.the stuff sent there has to be replaced possibly with newer and better and the old stuff would have been sold to poorer friendly countries jnder normal circumstances. 

[Rewulf]

6 hours ago, Mungler said:

I‘m pleased to see that at least everyone has stopped erroneously using ‘proxy war’ now, and following the like for like example of the US carrying out a ‘proxy war’ against the NAZIS when feeding and arming us during the early dark days of WW2 and which happily resulted in us now not speaking German.

You seem totally unwilling or unable to absorb anything different to the media line of 'Putin is insane , wants to dominate the world SPECTRE style , whilst cradling a fluffy cat in his lap' ?
You dont like the idea of 'proxy war' in any form, as it deflects away from the complete and total blame you need to attribute to Russia.
Thats despite, the same media you watch labelling it as such, the US state department revealing it WANTS the war to continue, as it 'weakens' oil rival Russia ? Bizarre.

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

I have been reading the Ukrainian news / Twitter aggregators and you appear to have been reading the Russian - let’s pop back to this thread in a month.

Also I note you name and heap scorn on Boris and Zalensky and the US but in all of your posts I can’t find any criticism of Putin or Russia who are as a simple matter of fact, the aggressing / invading force. You really should cut down on watching RT.

It also appears that anyone who disagrees with you is at the very least a putin sympathiser , a bot , or a paid Kremlin troll ?
Is this supposed to shut the debate down ? Because its really not working.

Again , no one is saying what is happening in Ukraine is not a human and economic tragedy, no one is saying putin is a nice guy, and no one is saying Russias invasion isnt wrong.
But there needs to be context, and above all a valid reason why all this is happening, and the 'putin is a nutter' reason just doesnt wash.
Furthermore , there is NO doubt that US assets helped foment the uprising in 2014 that enabled the coup , and subsequent civil war, they have done it multiple times since the end of WW2 , from central America, the middle east  to Africa and South east Asia, they wrote the book on it, its irrefutable.
They are now capitalising on the war in Ukraine, THIS is also irrefutable.

Lastly , you want to shut the debate down on any mention of the US/NATO doing these exact same type of regime change/invasions in the past, labelling them 'irrelevant'
Trumped up reasons for Vietnam , Cambodia, Iraq and Afghanistan, plus meddling in Libya and others , have cost the lives of millions of people, and bought NO peace until after they left, yet you want to ignore all that as 'whataboutery', because you really dont like Russia ?
You want to ignore all that hypocrisy, as it doesnt fit your world view?

Crack on.
 

 

 

[ordnance]

14 hours ago, Mice! said:

Not at all, but the USA and China probably have just as many.

But I didn't say they should fight Russia,  I said occupy Ukraine, acting as a peace keeping force  but then it would be a stand off across the river instead of a wall

Yeah Russia/ Putin would just let NATO March into Ukraine. No matter how many nukes America has, I doubt they want to get into a nuclear exchange with Russia.

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You seem totally unwilling or unable to absorb anything different to the media line of 'Putin is insane , wants to dominate the world SPECTRE style , whilst cradling a fluffy cat in his lap' ?
You dont like the idea of 'proxy war' in any form, as it deflects away from the complete and total blame you need to attribute to Russia.
Thats despite, the same media you watch labelling it as such, the US state department revealing it WANTS the war to continue, as it 'weakens' oil rival Russia ? Bizarre.

It also appears that anyone who disagrees with you is at the very least a putin sympathiser , a bot , or a paid Kremlin troll ?
Is this supposed to shut the debate down ? Because its really not working.

Again , no one is saying what is happening in Ukraine is not a human and economic tragedy, no one is saying putin is a nice guy, and no one is saying Russias invasion isnt wrong.
But there needs to be context, and above all a valid reason why all this is happening, and the 'putin is a nutter' reason just doesnt wash.
Furthermore , there is NO doubt that US assets helped foment the uprising in 2014 that enabled the coup , and subsequent civil war, they have done it multiple times since the end of WW2 , from central America, the middle east  to Africa and South east Asia, they wrote the book on it, its irrefutable.
They are now capitalising on the war in Ukraine, THIS is also irrefutable.

Lastly , you want to shut the debate down on any mention of the US/NATO doing these exact same type of regime change/invasions in the past, labelling them 'irrelevant'
Trumped up reasons for Vietnam , Cambodia, Iraq and Afghanistan, plus meddling in Libya and others , have cost the lives of millions of people, and bought NO peace until after they left, yet you want to ignore all that as 'whataboutery', because you really dont like Russia ?
You want to ignore all that hypocrisy, as it doesnt fit your world view?

Crack on.
 

 

 

And your point? Just sounds a lot of whataboutery.

Edited June 8, 2022 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Yeah Russia/ Putin would just let NATO March into Ukraine. No matter how many nukes America has, I doubt they want to get into a nuclear exchange with Russia.

Why would they have issue with another foreign power marching into Ukraine ?
They did.

5 minutes ago, ordnance said:

And your point?

Try actually reading Munglers statement about proxy war , then my reply.
Youll get the point eventually 😏

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, ordnance said:

Yeah Russia/ Putin would just let NATO March into Ukraine. No matter how many nukes America has, I doubt they want to get into a nuclear exchange with Russia.

I don't believe anyone wants to start chucking Nukes around,  but I'm a normal person.

I don't see how Russia could stop Nato rolling into the Ukraine claiming humanitarian needs, but it would certainly escalate things.

[Rewulf]

42 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I don't see how Russia could stop Nato rolling into the Ukraine claiming humanitarian needs, but it would certainly escalate things.

They couldnt, but it doesnt have to be under a NATO banner, it could be UN mandate , or even a tri party group like that used to this day in Transnistria and South Ossetia ?
I reckon Russia would actually welcome it , it gives them an exit strategy....

But it wont happen, and there is not a single entity suggesting it, in fact , it could have happened after 2014 , but no one wanted it, least of all Ukraine , who were happy to be in de facto civil war for 8 years.
It wont happen because Ukraine need to agree to it , and Ukraine is now a US thrall, bought and paid for, and the US want this war to continue LITERALLY, as long as possible.
It keeps Russia as an international pariah, wrecks their arms and oil industry, which are in direct competition to the US, whilst allowing widespread sanctions to be levelled at the country and various oligarchs, an American speciality.
The US have won the lottery here, economically and militarily , and its very hard to imagine they didnt plan this a long time ago TBH.

[Minky]

There's some really crazy posts on here about how it's all the fault of the west.  No one was packing invasion forces on the border with Russia. It was Russia that annexed Crimea and Chechnya and Georgia. Russia is being bleed dry by international sanctions.  Any economy can only buy its own currency for so long.  The Russian army has poorly maintained semi obsolete equipment and the troops which are mainly young conscripts have low moral and no interest in being where they are.  Typically the french and italians are all for not giving putin a tuning.  A big industry of white flag waving. Oh and putins claim was to hold nato off of its border.  Well that worked out really well now that both Finland and Sweden have moved from neutrality to being active members of Nato.  And of course its all the fault of the civilians that have been shelled and murdered in their own land.  This stupid unnecessary war will put all of the russian population back into the dark years of stalin.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Minky

[clangerman]

even crazier is after 63 pages not one out raged war monger has taken up Ukrainies offer of a free rifle and lift to the front line 

[ordnance]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Why would they have issue with another foreign power marching into Ukraine ?
They did.

Try actually reading Munglers statement about proxy war , then my reply.
Youll get the point eventually 😏

Sovereign country's can and do buy arm's from other countries, does that make the country supplying the weapons a proxy In any war they are used 🤔

Edited June 8, 2022 by ordnance

[ordnance]

Quote

The US have won the lottery here, economically and militarily , and its very hard to imagine they didnt plan this a long time ago TBH.

I see all along it was a cunning plan by America to get Russia to attack Ukraine . 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by ordnance

[Newbie to this]

17 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Sovereign country's can and do buy arm's from other countries, does that make the country supplying the weapons a proxy In any war they are used 🤔

Are they buying the weapons 

[ordnance]

30 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Are they buying the weapons 

Lend lease, like the UK did during WW2. Paying is not always money or money up front.