Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

Don't know why you think the Yanks were an imperial country. Or are you just diverting from answering the question posed by my scenario. As it doesn't fit your agenda?

You gave a scenario , you didn't ask a question.

I gave my opinion on your flawed scenario, and would further point out you are comparing apples with oranges.

What do you think my agenda is?

[Rewulf]

59 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And in other news, Slovakia has today just asked NATO to patrol its skies from now on and so they can ground their fleet of Migs and ship them over to Ukraine

If the US is going to allow one of its members to send planes, why don't they send some too, never mind those 40 year old Migs, why not a couple of dozen F35 s?

I mean , in for a penny...?

Might as well put those SM3s in Ukraine too, the ones they wanted to put in Poland, to protect Europe from those pesky Iranian ICBMs.

[Mungler]

11 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Would that be Slovakia who have been in NATO since 2004, so they're happy to let someone else take the responsibility and aren't wanting to join because Russia is banging on the door.
And must have been paying their way.

Indeed the very one and same. 

I just hope that in their pursuit of a proxy war against Russia, their hands weren’t historically blackened or tied by an act of hypocrisy a couple of decades ago.

Well it has to be that or maybe they could just be appalled by the invasion, a tad worried about what Putin has planned for the surrounding sovereign countries and wanted to throw in and help Ukraine out.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

If the US is going to allow one of its members to send planes, why don't they send some too, never mind those 40 year old Migs, why not a couple of dozen F35 s?

I mean , in for a penny...?

Might as well put those SM3s in Ukraine too, the ones they wanted to put in Poland, to protect Europe from those pesky Iranian ICBMs.

The Ukrainian airforce can’t fly and don’t have the time to train for F35s and of course Ukraine isn’t in NATO, yet.

 

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, Mungler said:

The Ukrainian airforce can’t fly and don’t have the time to train for F35s and of course Ukraine isn’t in NATO, yet.

But the Slovakian planes will be OK? 

[Mungler]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

But the Slovakian planes will be OK? 

Yes, the Ukrainian airforce is based around the Mig. 

[Rewulf]

20 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Yes, the Ukrainian airforce is based around the Mig. 

Not for much longer. 

Even though there are vast stocks of Russian origin calibred rifles and LMGs, with plentiful surplus ammunition, just over the border in the old Soviet bloc nations, the US insists on sending over its M16/M4 s, with millions of rounds of 556 and 762.

Its like a de Russification of its armed forces doctrine, preparing them for NATO  entry. Who knows, might even scare Vlad the impaler off? 

Personally I'd be more scared of this coming at me across the battlefield 😂

 

[Mungler]

Make what you will of Zalensky and his previous comedic career, however, he has without question put himself at the top of the global ‘most likely to be assassinated and not see in next year’ list and in my books there’s a fair chunk of bravery and other positive characteristics that go with that too. It’s not a role I would want or invite.

.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Mungler

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Make what you will of Zalensky and his previous comedic career, however, he has without question put himself at the top of the global ‘most likely to be assassinated and not see in next year’ list and in my books there’s a fair chunk of bravery and other positive characteristics that go with that too. It’s not a role I would want or invite.

.

Not doubting his bravery. 

I doubt his sincerity, and motivations though, he is most definitely not what he appears to be. 

 

[ordnance]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Not doubting his bravery. 

I doubt his sincerity, and motivations though, he is most definitely not what he appears to be. 

 

I doubt most politicians motivations and sincerely, why would he be any different. But unlike a lot of others who would have been on the first plane out, he stayed to lead his country in the fight.

[bostonmick]

i would have hoped after the last two wars that at least lessons would have been learnt but it seems not.the west is just playing a waiting game yes we give them weapons but they will be limited.after ww2 europe settled down and the old ussr was largely broken up with the agreement of the then ruling regime.now we havd three main players in the game to be the worlds super power usa china and now russia if putin can retake ground given up before.if he takes ukraine and then goes after others look at what he will control.they already have massive gas and oil reserves which the rest of the world crave ukraine feeds massive parts of the world and also has massive lithium reserves which the world will also crave to fulfil is dream of carbon reduction.imagine the power a single country would have if it controlled just those things.well the usa could never stand for that coming second is not an option for them and if russia was no1 china would no doubt soon become no2 and that would definitely not sit well with america being no3.all the helpfull countries in this are hedging their bets no direct involvement as if russia comes out on top they will want its produce if ukraine are top they will want theirs and payback for the help along with the lucrative contracts for rebuilding the place. money is way ahead of principles.

Edited July 3, 2022 by bostonmick

[oowee]

1 hour ago, bostonmick said:

i would have hoped after the last two wars that at least lessons would have been learnt but it seems not.the west is just playing a waiting game yes we give them weapons but they will be limited.after ww2 europe settled down and the old ussr was largely broken up with the agreement of the then ruling regime.now we havd three main players in the game to be the worlds super power usa china and now russia if putin can retake ground given up before.if he takes ukraine and then goes after others look at what he will control.they already have massive gas and oil reserves which the rest of the world crave ukraine feeds massive parts of the world and also has massive lithium reserves which the world will also crave to fulfil is dream of carbon reduction.imagine the power a single country would have if it controlled just those things.well the usa could never stand for that coming second is not an option for them and if russia was no1 china would no doubt soon become no2 and that would definitely not sit well with america being no3.all the helpfull countries in this are hedging their bets no direct involvement as if russia comes out on top they will want its produce if ukraine are top they will want theirs and payback for the help along with the lucrative contracts for rebuilding the place. money is way ahead of principles.

Fortunately that's very unlikely to happen. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, seems Ukraine is yesterday's news as there's little reporting on the news channels, 🤔

[Dave-G]

2 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, seems Ukraine is yesterday's news as there's little reporting on the news channels, 🤔

Probably same stories different places every day now, little there to surprise us apart from Russia gaining ground.

[ditchman]

media is missing a trick here..........Freesat should introduce "The war channell"....Freesat 597.......BAE systems et all could do adverts every 20 mins

would be an improvement on QVC

[Rem260]

19 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You gave a scenario , you didn't ask a question.

I gave my opinion on your flawed scenario, and would further point out you are comparing apples with oranges.

What do you think my agenda is?

I think you will find that my flawed scenario actually happened. I didn't think I would have to give a history lesson to someone of your breadth of knowledge. Britain declared war on Germany to stop its expansionism into the rest of Europe. But according to you as it was an imperial power it should of just stayed quite. Had they done so I doubt Russia would have survived and the fate of Europe would have been somewhat different.

[Rewulf]

4 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, seems Ukraine is yesterday's news as there's little reporting on the news channels, 🤔

You have to remember what the media is, its not a public service, but a profit based business.
The product of this business, is the news that they think you are are going to tune in to see.
When your appetite for a chosen subject wanes, you tune out, so they move onto something else to satisfy your cravings for information.
To a lesser extent, media channels promote political ideology, they still need to keep it interesting, but there will be subtle left/right/woke bias introduced, depending on the management or owner of the media company.

So yes, Ukraine is becoming yesterdays news, as ordinary people can only stomach so much war rhetoric.

2 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

I think you will find that my flawed scenario actually happened . I didn't think I would have to give a history lesson to someone of your breadth of knowledge. Britain declared war on Germany to stop its expansionism into the rest of Europe. But according to you as it was an imperial power it should of just stayed quite. Had they done so I doubt Russia would have survived and the fate of Europe would have been somewhat different.

You dont , you need to read up on why things took that course.
Why were they allowed to re arm in the first place ?
Why were they allowed to take back the Sudetenland, effectively absorb Austria ? (There is a parallel here with Russia/Ukraine/Donbass)
The only reason we piped up over Poland was because we had promised Poland assistance if Germany attacked them.
In the event , Britain and France were in NO position to help Poland, and never did.
The fact that we declared war on Germany was meant to be this big scary gesture that would force Russia and Germany to withdraw, they must have howled with laughter.

The simple fact is , the only expansionism we could control , was over the borders of our own respective countries, we couldnt stop the nazis or soviets taking any other country they pleased, this is evident from what transpired.
But for  20 miles of sea, things WOULD have been much different.

So again , your argument is flawed , because you seem to think Russia could just roll over Europe, if we dont stop them at Ukraine, this is complete fallacy.
Russia neither has the army, or resources , to perform this, and western Europe has been ready for Russian incursion for 70 years.

 

[Mungler]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 But for  20 miles of sea, things WOULD have been much different.

….and the assistance of the US.

Indeed, the very modern outlook on the world is that the US is the source of all evil in the world, but it’s not and it’s far from it. 

I am constantly told on here that there are no binary decisions in global politicking but there are starting with do we want China to be the world’s dominant super power?

I’m amazed at the constant criticism thrown at the US and the easy ride / free pass given to the likes of Russia and China (and with their democracy / free speech / free press / fair trial and human rights issues).

 

[Rem260]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You have to remember what the media is, its not a public service, but a profit based business.
The product of this business, is the news that they think you are are going to tune in to see.
When your appetite for a chosen subject wanes, you tune out, so they move onto something else to satisfy your cravings for information.
To a lesser extent, media channels promote political ideology, they still need to keep it interesting, but there will be subtle left/right/woke bias introduced, depending on the management or owner of the media company.

So yes, Ukraine is becoming yesterdays news, as ordinary people can only stomach so much war rhetoric.

You dont , you need to read up on why things took that course.
Why were they allowed to re arm in the first place ?
Why were they allowed to take back the Sudetenland, effectively absorb Austria ? (There is a parallel here with Russia/Ukraine/Donbass)
The only reason we piped up over Poland was because we had promised Poland assistance if Germany attacked them.
In the event , Britain and France were in NO position to help Poland, and never did.
The fact that we declared war on Germany was meant to be this big scary gesture that would force Russia and Germany to withdraw, they must have howled with laughter.

The simple fact is , the only expansionism we could control , was over the borders of our own respective countries, we couldnt stop the nazis or soviets taking any other country they pleased, this is evident from what transpired.
But for  20 miles of sea, things WOULD have been much different.

So again , your argument is flawed , because you seem to think Russia could just roll over Europe, if we dont stop them at Ukraine, this is complete fallacy.
Russia neither has the army, or resources , to perform this, and western Europe has been ready for Russian incursion for 70 

Germany was allowed to re arm because nobody wanted another war. However had Brtain not declared war on Germany it would have had free reign to conquer Europe.

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

….and the assistance of the US.

The assistance of the US was a pure business arrangement prior to 1941.
They were still selling large amounts of raw materials, and specialist equipment up to , and in some cases beyond that.
One notable is the Ford Motor co.

 Ford backed Hitler’s accession to power as the head of a coalition government, on promises from Hitler to immediately begin rearmament. During the war, Ford lobbyists stopped the USAAF from bombing Ford factories in The Reich until near the end. After the war, Ford sued the USAAF for damages and won a judgment of 38 million dollars.

Fun fact: Albert Einstein held patents on several crucial inventions, including the electromagnetic gyrocompass used in U-boats, manufactured by Siemens. He continued receiving his royalty checks during and after the war.

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I am constantly told on here that there are no binary decisions in global politicking but there are starting with do we want China to be the world’s dominant super power?

How do you think China will achieve dominance ?
By the greed and profiteering of US and European corporations, who use it for their manufacturing.
Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I’m amazed at the constant criticism thrown at the US and the easy ride / free pass given to the likes of Russia and China (and with their democracy / free speech / free press / fair trial and human rights issues).

Just now, Rem260 said:

Germany was allowed to re arm because nobody wanted another war. 

I dont know , might have been an idea to have that war with them before they re armed themselves to the teeth ?

 

2 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

However had Brtain not declared war on Germany it would have had free reign to conquer Europe.

That worked out well didnt it ?

[Rem260]

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

….and the assistance of the US.

Indeed, the very modern outlook on the world is that the US is the source of all evil in the world, but it’s not and it’s far from it. 

I am constantly told on here that there are no binary decisions in global politicking but there are starting with do we want China to be the world’s dominant super power?

I’m amazed at the constant criticism thrown at the US and the easy ride / free pass given to the likes of Russia and China (and with their democracy / free speech / free press / fair trial and human rights issues).

 

Because those that exercise the perogative of free speech actually believe that it was free.

[Rem260]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

I dont know , might have been an idea to have that war with them before they re armed themselves to the teeth ?

 

That worked out well didnt it ?

So you would be happy to send your children to war then.

On the whole I think it worked out very well considering Mr H was stopped and the alternative doesn't bear thinking about. Nice that you think all the sacrifices made in order to stop it wasn't worth it.

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

So you would be happy to send your children to war then.

What a question !
Is any parent 'happy' to send their kids off to war ?

11 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

On the whole I think it worked out very well considering Mr H was stopped and the alternative doesn't bear thinking about. Nice that you think all the sacrifices made in order to stop it wasn't worth it.

Not sure where I even hinted at that 

Lets hope the 50 million people who were violently killed thought 'it worked out very well' too ?

[Mice!]

49 minutes ago, Mungler said:

….and the assistance of the US.

Indeed, the very modern outlook on the world is that the US is the source of all evil in the world, but it’s not and it’s far from it. 

I am constantly told on here that there are no binary decisions in global politicking but there are starting with do we want China to be the world’s dominant super power?

I’m amazed at the constant criticism thrown at the US and the easy ride / free pass given to the likes of Russia and China (and with their democracy / free speech / free press / fair trial and human rights issues).

 

During the last 40 years there have been small wars, when compared with WW2 and lots of them, most between neighbouring countries like Russia and the Ukraine now.

The UK has been involved in conflicts all across the globe, despite us not being under direct attack, the Falklands being the one exception. 

I'm not sure who was bombing Syria and probably still is, but the USA us and others were the ones bombing Iraq after Saddam invaded Kuwait, then Afghanistan then Iraq again.

I don't see the USA as being evil at all, but we're on the same side, the 51st state if you like which makes a big difference.

Why did we go to war with Iraq? I'd say oil and minerals and Saddam was dangerous,  plus he had no Nukes.

And America new they would benefit,  despite the huge numbers of personnel they must have lost, a modern day Vietnam,  but you'll probably say that was years ago so doesn't count?

What goes on in Russia is almost unknown to the common person,  China is even more restricted when it comes to what's happening there, plus most people couldn't care less, it doesn't affect our daily lives, and how are we supposed to change human rights or free speech in a country on the other side of the world, we can't.

What everyone will have seen is American and UK jets bombing targets in the middle East, has anyone ever seen a Chinese plane bombing a foreign country??

China for me is the great unknown,  I'd say they are bigger than everyone,  with more resources and control over their population, plus look at how much other countries depend on China for manufacturing. 

Nobody is giving Russia a free ride, Russia are doing what others have done before which is what they think will benefit them, the only difference I can see is its not being done in a desert.

[Newbie to this]

6 hours ago, Mice! said:

During the last 40 years there have been small wars, when compared with WW2 and lots of them, most between neighbouring countries like Russia and the Ukraine now.

The UK has been involved in conflicts all across the globe, despite us not being under direct attack, the Falklands being the one exception. 

I'm not sure who was bombing Syria and probably still is, but the USA us and others were the ones bombing Iraq after Saddam invaded Kuwait, then Afghanistan then Iraq again.

I don't see the USA as being evil at all, but we're on the same side, the 51st state if you like which makes a big difference.

Why did we go to war with Iraq? I'd say oil and minerals and Saddam was dangerous,  plus he had no Nukes.

And America new they would benefit,  despite the huge numbers of personnel they must have lost, a modern day Vietnam,  but you'll probably say that was years ago so doesn't count?

What goes on in Russia is almost unknown to the common person,  China is even more restricted when it comes to what's happening there, plus most people couldn't care less, it doesn't affect our daily lives, and how are we supposed to change human rights or free speech in a country on the other side of the world, we can't.

What everyone will have seen is American and UK jets bombing targets in the middle East, has anyone ever seen a Chinese plane bombing a foreign country??

China for me is the great unknown,  I'd say they are bigger than everyone,  with more resources and control over their population, plus look at how much other countries depend on China for manufacturing. 

Nobody is giving Russia a free ride, Russia are doing what others have done before which is what they think will benefit them, the only difference I can see is its not being done in a desert.

[Rem260]

On 04/07/2022 at 12:29, Rewulf said:

Why were they allowed to re arm in the first place ?
 

 

On 04/07/2022 at 13:19, Rewulf said:

What a question !
Is any parent 'happy' to send their kids off to war ?

Not sure where I even hinted at that 

You seem to forget what you write or imply. How would you have stopped it. Sent him a strongly worded letter ?