Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Raja Clavata]

7 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Not all of France , but geographical and ethnic lines are blurred in the region, Alsace-Lorraine is French , or is it German for instance ?
How many French people had Germanic ancestry ?

Agreed.

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

There are even British and Americans who , through ancestry or politics , fought for the nazis.

Yep.

[Vince Green]

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

There are even British and Americans who , through ancestry or politics , fought for the nazis.

There was a huge support for Nazi Germany in America in 1939 and 1940. If the Germans hadn't got stupid and started a submarine war sinking American ships off the East Coast things could have gone very differently. 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

There was a huge support for Nazi Germany in America in 1939 and 1940. If the Germans hadn't got stupid and started a submarine war sinking American ships off the East Coast things could have gone very differently. 

Indeed , their conflict of interest (large Germanic ancestry + economic interests ) was settled by a few careless U boat captains , and the Japs.

[johnphilip]

5 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

There was a huge support for Nazi Germany in America in 1939 and 1940. If the Germans hadn't got stupid and started a submarine war sinking American ships off the East Coast things could have gone very differently. 

There was also some support for them in certain  polical parties in Scotland. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, johnphilip said:

There was also some support for them in certain  polical parties in Scotland. 

Looking at the state of some of them there still is 😄

[Walker570]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Looking at the state of some of them there still is 😄

beat me to it.

Putin now scraping the bottom of the barrel for men/women to fight on the front line, even prisoners and old men but dare not approach towns and cities because serious anti war feelings there.   Poor innocent Russians from distant regions are being cajoled into joining the front line, most untrained and incapable.  One wonders just how many more Russians must die before someone sees sense and pops Putin.

Now estimated that over 30,000 young Russians have expired just for Putin's manic obsession.

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Walker570

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

One wonders just how many more Russians must die before someone sees sense.

Now estimated that over 30,000 young Russians have expired just for Putin's manic obsession.

That figure (if correct) may not be the same one published in Russia.  Putin regularly speaks of it all going to plan.

[Walker570]

The figure was one provided by both Ukraine and International Security Services and I know who I would prefer to believe.

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

The figure was one provided by both Ukraine and International Security Services and I know who I would prefer to believe.

I agree, but in Russia, they are heavily conditioned to believe only their own news media - and everything put out that contradicts that is Western propaganda. 

[Mungler]

58 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

And everything put out that contradicts that is Western propaganda. 

There’s a few too on here that are inclined to believe the extensive pro Russian reporting / propaganda machine and which is how we were told it would all be over in a month, Ukrainian morale was broken and that Zelensky would flee etc. You can’t form those views by watching CNN or the Beeb. 

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

The figure was one provided by both Ukraine and International Security Services and I know who I would prefer to believe.

This.

6 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Agree with all that, except the need to constantly bash the French.

You can't extrapolate the Vichy French in WW2 to all of France, that is a distortion of historical fact.

Just a couple of counter points:

• What was the ultimate fate of the puppet leader of the Vichy?
• How many French perished in securing the repatriation of British & Commonwealth troops at Dunkirk?

Since answering the questions doesn't suit your agenda, I'll do so for you:

• He was tried and found guilty of TREASON >> death by firing squad
• Around 16,000, so for every ~20 British & Commonwealth soldiers who left, 1 French soldier made the ultimate sacrifice.

Could be seen as a gross act of cowardice, especially for anyone who has a pathological dislike of Ukrainians, or who tries to write history to align with their bias.

An interesting article on this very topic in the Smithsonian mag:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/vichy-government-france-world-war-ii-willingly-collaborated-nazis-180967160/

I’ll summarise for you - overwhelming public support in France for the Vichy government at the start. Yes, that’s ‘overwhelming’ and at the point they threw to towel in and invited the Germans in. 
.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Mungler

[Vince Green]

58 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I agree, but in Russia, they are heavily conditioned to belie

It like that in Russia, anyone with a different point of view is a Nazi plotting to overthrow the Russian State

. Seventy five years on and they are still invoking Nazi doctrine as the reason for invading a peaceful and neutral country

[discobob]

11 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Seventy five years on and they are still invoking Nazi doctrine as the reason for invading a peaceful and neutral country

and there are elements within the UK who do this to people who don't agree with their mantra - just saying

 

[Rewulf]

45 minutes ago, Mungler said:

There’s a few too on here that are inclined to believe the extensive pro Russian reporting / propaganda machine

Again , where are you getting your daily dose of Russian propaganda, please provide a link to back up your assertion that there is such a thing available in the UK ?
All pro Russian media outlets have been silenced , so how are us gullible Russian sympathising bots getting all this fake information ?

2 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Now estimated that over 30,000 young Russians have expired just for Putin's manic obsession.

38,000 according to the Ukrainian government, who strangely seem reluctant to publish figures of their own military dead, but are very eager to come up with civilian death figures.

The 38,000 figure is ONLY quoted by the Ukrainian government , everyone else , including the US and UN make it considerably less.

Breakdown	Casualties	Time period	Source
Civilians	12,000–28,081+ killed (est.)[72][note 5]	24 February – 7 July 2022	Ukrainian government
	4,889 killed, 6,263 wounded[a]	24 February – 3 July 2022	United Nations[73]
Ukrainian forces (ZSU, NGU)	23,367 killed	24 February – 16 April 2022	Russian government[74]
	5,500–11,000 killed, 18,000+ wounded	24 February – 19 April 2022	US estimate[75]
	10,000 killed, 30,000 wounded, 7,200 missing (5,600 captured)	24 February – 3 June 2022	Ukrainian government[76][77][78][79]
Russian and allied forces (VSRF, Rosgvardiya, FSB, PMC Wagner, DPR & LPR)	16,000 killed	24 February – 15 June 2022	US estimate[80]
	20,000 killed	24 February – 15 June 2022	UK estimate[81]
	36,200 losses[b]	24 February – 4 July 2022	Ukrainian government[82]
Russian forces (VSRF, Rosgvardiya, FSB)	4,515 killed (conf. deaths by name)	24 February – 7 July 2022	BBC News Russian & Meduza[87]
	4,293 killed (conf. deaths by name)	24 February – 7 July 2022	IStories[88]
Donetsk PR forces	2,343 killed, 9,663 wounded	26 February – 7 July 2022	Donetsk PR[89]
Luhansk PR forces	500–600 killed	24 February – 5 April 2022	Russian government[90]

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

I’ll summarise for you - overwhelming public support in France for the Vichy government at the start. Yes, that’s ‘overwhelming’ and at the point they threw to towel in and invited the Germans in. 

As you say, interesting article, thanks for sharing. Is there anything that validates the overwhelming statement, as one refers to "might well have approved" and the other "overwhelming" - two distinct positions / opinions?

I assume this isn't the sole reason for your apparent hatred of all things French.

[Walker570]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Again , where are you getting your daily dose of Russian propaganda, please provide a link to back up your assertion that there is such a thing available in the UK ?
All pro Russian media outlets have been silenced , so how are us gullible Russian sympathising bots getting all this fake information ?

38,000 according to the Ukrainian government, who strangely seem reluctant to publish figures of their own military dead, but are very eager to come up with civilian death figures.

The 38,000 figure is ONLY quoted by the Ukrainian government , everyone else , including the US and UN make it considerably less.

Breakdown	Casualties	Time period	Source
Civilians	12,000–28,081+ killed (est.)[72][note 5]	24 February – 7 July 2022	Ukrainian government
	4,889 killed, 6,263 wounded[a]	24 February – 3 July 2022	United Nations[73]
Ukrainian forces (ZSU, NGU)	23,367 killed	24 February – 16 April 2022	Russian government[74]
	5,500–11,000 killed, 18,000+ wounded	24 February – 19 April 2022	US estimate[75]
	10,000 killed, 30,000 wounded, 7,200 missing (5,600 captured)	24 February – 3 June 2022	Ukrainian government[76][77][78][79]
Russian and allied forces (VSRF, Rosgvardiya, FSB, PMC Wagner, DPR & LPR)	16,000 killed	24 February – 15 June 2022	US estimate[80]
	20,000 killed	24 February – 15 June 2022	UK estimate[81]
	36,200 losses[b]	24 February – 4 July 2022	Ukrainian government[82]
Russian forces (VSRF, Rosgvardiya, FSB)	4,515 killed (conf. deaths by name)	24 February – 7 July 2022	BBC News Russian & Meduza[87]
	4,293 killed (conf. deaths by name)	24 February – 7 July 2022	IStories[88]
Donetsk PR forces	2,343 killed, 9,663 wounded	26 February – 7 July 2022	Donetsk PR[89]
Luhansk PR forces	500–600 killed	24 February – 5 April 2022	Russian government[90]

Thanks , that is interesting. Obviously very difficult to make an accutate count when the Russians oleft so many of their dead lying in the streets.  Still a crazy loss of life for one mans obsession.  

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

As you say, interesting article, thanks for sharing. Is there anything that validates the overwhelming statement, as one refers to "might well have approved" and the other "overwhelming" - two distinct positions / opinions?

I assume this isn't the sole reason for your apparent hatred of all things French.

The French are and always will be awkward socialists and cultural snobs. Indeed it was their cultural snobbery that saw them roll over to the Germans - rather than sap or seek to weaken the nazi war machine they couldn’t bear to see Paris scratched and so let them in and immediately started transporting Jews. They left it to others to sort out the Germans.

Scroll on, the EU has been forged and shaped as a French and German double act and now we have the peacocking Macron desperate for power, to be president of Europe and at the top of a European army. 

The EU /French vaccine catastrophe and the steps taken by macron to undermine the Oxford AZ says it all to me.

[mick miller]

On 12/07/2022 at 19:05, Mungler said:

You edited your post, but your prediction was Russian total victory inside of 1 month of 8th June. 

What are your Russian propaganda outlets telling you now? 

My analysis is telling me that 7.3 billon dollars in US aid alone had resulted in the death of thousands of Ukrainians (not that I'm terribly bothered by the death of nazis amid their ranks) and the loss of the entire Eastern side of Ukraine. 

What's you analysis telling you? That some super duper weapon is going to flip that tide of inevitable defeat and humiliation around?

As I said before, if both sides had been adults and sat round a table to negotiate a peace settlement, even if that resulted in a smaller play pit for one party, many of those lives could have been saved, much of the destruction prevented. Yes, even the troglodytes sporting tattoos of Hitler and SS insignia. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by mick miller

[Stonepark]

Daily summary of positions

 

 

[oowee]

2 hours ago, mick miller said:

My analysis is telling me that 7.3 billon dollars in US aid alone had resulted in the death of thousands of Ukrainians (not that I'm terribly bothered by the death of nazis amid their ranks) and the loss of the entire Eastern side of Ukraine. 

What's you analysis telling you? That some super duper weapon is going to flip that tide of inevitable defeat and humiliation around?

As I said before, if both sides had been adults and sat round a table to negotiate a peace settlement, even if that resulted in a smaller play pit for one party, many of those lives could have been saved, much of the destruction prevented. Yes, even the troglodytes sporting tattoos of Hitler and SS insignia. 

If Russia came to the UK and said we want the South East. Would the UK give it up and negotiate it away to avoid deaths? If we were in a fight for survival would we want other countries to help us out, provide us with cash and weapons? 

If I was in Ukraine i would like to think I would fight for my country and i would like other to help out. 

[discobob]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

If Russia came to the UK and said we want the South East. Would the UK give it up and negotiate it away to avoid deaths? If we were in a fight for survival would we want other countries to help us out, provide us with cash and weapons? 

If I was in Ukraine i would like to think I would fight for my country and i would like other to help out. 

There are parts of the UK that I think foreign countries could have almost a valid claim to that area...In fact there are areas that believe they are not part of the UK....

Why did Turkey invade Cyprus - withdrawing and keeping the North...

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

If I was in Ukraine i would like to think I would fight for my country and i would like other to help out. 

Its easy to say when youre not in the position ?

Imagine youre walking the down the street one night , and 3 big nasty blokes drag you into an alley, threaten you with extreme violence and injury, if you dont hand over your money/cards, phone and watch that has been passed down through generations of your family.
What do you do , scream for help , fight back as best you can , knowing you will infuriate these knuckle draggers even more... Or do you hand your possessions over and hope they dont beat you anyway ?

The people making the decisions for how much damage and death ordinary Ukrainians face, fighting Russia on a daily basis, are not the people in the firing line, so its very easy for them to preach about fighting till the last man and bullet.

[Stonepark]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

If Russia came to the UK and said we want the South East. Would the UK give it up and negotiate it away to avoid deaths? If we were in a fight for survival would we want other countries to help us out, provide us with cash and weapons? 

If I was in Ukraine i would like to think I would fight for my country and i would like other to help out. 

If Scotland held a referendum without Uk parliment consent due to a WEF coup in Westminister, and seceeded, would the Uk spend 8 years lobbing artillary shells into Scotland and build up its army in preparation to invade Scotland to bring it back within the Union?

There are plenty of 'Ukranians' who do not want or wish to be ruled by the current Kiev government, they are indeed fighting for "their" country and have requested their Russian neighbours to support them in maintaining their freedom of choice to not be ruled by a government installed not by democracy but by an internationally supported coup.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Stonepark said:

If Scotland held a referendum without Uk parliment consent due to a WEF coup in Westminister, and seceeded, would the Uk spend 8 years lobbing artillary shells into Scotland and build up its army in preparation to invade Scotland to bring it back within the Union?

There are plenty of 'Ukranians' who do not want or wish to be ruled by the current Kiev government, they are indeed fighting for "their" country and have requested their Russian neighbours to support them in maintaining their freedom of choice to not be ruled by a government installed not by democracy but by an internationally supported coup.

Spot on.

The voices of pro or ethnic Russian Ukrainians have been completely ignored, and their dissent has them labelled as insurgents or 'separatists' , the government in Kiev has used these terms to make them legitimate targets for all manner of quasi militias, and yes these militias , which Kiev struggles to control, often have neo nazi ideals.
This isnt heresay , the BBC has been reporting on it for 8 years , and searching on Youtube for 'Nazis in Ukraine'  throws up a plethora of evidence from reliable sources of it.

[oowee]

38 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

If Scotland held a referendum without Uk parliment consent due to a WEF coup in Westminister, and seceeded, would the Uk spend 8 years lobbing artillary shells into Scotland and build up its army in preparation to invade Scotland to bring it back within the Union?

There are plenty of 'Ukranians' who do not want or wish to be ruled by the current Kiev government, they are indeed fighting for "their" country and have requested their Russian neighbours to support them in maintaining their freedom of choice to not be ruled by a government installed not by democracy but by an internationally supported coup.

********

 

28 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Spot on.

The voices of pro or ethnic Russian Ukrainians have been completely ignored, and their dissent has them labelled as insurgents or 'separatists' , the government in Kiev has used these terms to make them legitimate targets for all manner of quasi militias, and yes these militias , which Kiev struggles to control, often have neo nazi ideals.
This isnt heresay , the BBC has been reporting on it for 8 years , and searching on Youtube for 'Nazis in Ukraine'  throws up a plethora of evidence from reliable sources of it.

Simply not true

[Gordon R]

It is easy to see how things get blurred by propaganda and different opinions.

Bottom line is that Putin invaded. I don't believe for one second he was protecting Russian speakers. I think he saw it as a quick land grab - territory, crops, minerals. 

He is definitely at fault, but I genuinely worry where it will all end. More and more dying on both sides and a country getting slowly levelled.