Vince Green Posted August 1, 2022 Report Share Posted August 1, 2022 On 20/07/2022 at 22:25, ordnance said: Why do some think it would not have happened if Trump was in the White House, maybe it would maybe it wouldn't i don't know. Trump was Putin's lap dog. Putin has so much dirt on Trump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted August 1, 2022 Report Share Posted August 1, 2022 16 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Youll also find they want Crimea back as a term of ceasefire. That is their negotiating position ........ but Russia also has a negotiating position which I believe says it wants large parts of what it has taken since Feb 22. Both are just that 'negotiating positions'. There will need to be compromises. In the meantime Russia has neatly placed Finland and Sweden into NATO, severely alienated other previously fairly tolerant countries, will loose much of it's gas and oil sales to the West longer term and be severely impacted both economically for years to come. EVEN IF it was given a 'surrender' by the Ukrainian Gov't now, it's doubtful if the West will return to much trade with Russia for years to come. Whichever way they turn, they will loose out. It is alleged that Putin was told by his 'intelligence' cronies that Russian troops would be largely welcomed in Ukraine and it would all be over in a few days and there would be parties in the streets and everyone waving Russian flags. perhaps he was? Perhaps if you are a ruthless autocratic dictator - people tell you what you want to hear - whether or not it is correct? Whatever the background - he is in a huge hole - and cannot 'dig' his way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 1, 2022 Report Share Posted August 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Mungler said: There can’t be peace until Russia withdraws, and so in the meantime Ukraine burns and its people die. And MIC shareholders get a new mansion. 1 hour ago, Vince Green said: Trump was Putin's lap dog. Putin has so much dirt on Trump Go on then , like what ? 1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said: t is alleged that Putin was told by his 'intelligence' cronies that Russian troops would be largely welcomed in Ukraine and it would all be over in a few days and there would be parties in the streets and everyone waving Russian flags. perhaps he was? No evidence to support this claim whatsoever, it was very clear after Maidan that western Ukraine was not going to be compliant to Russian influences, 8 years after the US and EU had pumped money into it , why would it be different? Just a misinformation campaign , same as putin has cancer and weeks to live, or Russia doesn't have any missiles left etc. The ongoing tally Ukraine keeps of losses depict 1 Ukrainian soldier dying for every 5 Russians, and 10000 Russian tanks and vehicles lost , yet Ukraine has no ships , no airforce, is begging 50 year old tanks off its neighbours , and it's soldiers drive around in commandeered family cars, they lose ground every day . But they're still winning.? Call it what you will, propaganda, lies, misinformation, they learnt it all from the Russians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted August 1, 2022 Report Share Posted August 1, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Ukraine burns and its people die. They didn’t choose, ask or want to be invaded, but how they respond is their choice. You continue to ignore the option of Russia having enough or Russia withdrawing. They are options though. And in the meantime the Russians lose people, expensive kit, trash their economy and so on. Russia is a gangster run petrol station with a GDP lower than Italy. In the 1990’s when the wall dropped Russia and China had economies the same size - go figure. Russia can win against Ukraine but not against Ukraine and the NATO nations (growing list that that is). A deal will appear once that loon Putin has had enough or the people around him have. . Edited August 1, 2022 by Mungler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted August 1, 2022 Report Share Posted August 1, 2022 41 minutes ago, Rewulf said: No evidence to support this claim whatsoever, Which is why I called it an 'alleged'. There is evidence (I think both from his own speeches and his initial partial (then given up) attempt on Kiev) that he expected the 'special military operation' to be over quite quickly. That hasn't happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted August 1, 2022 Report Share Posted August 1, 2022 16 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Which is why I called it an 'alleged'. There is evidence (I think both from his own speeches and his initial partial (then given up) attempt on Kiev) that he expected the 'special military operation' to be over quite quickly. That hasn't happened. He did. Of course he thought palms had been greased and it would be a walk in the park with the Ukrainian people cheering on the Russians - because that’s what everyone had told him. The early encounters uncovered what kit (riot control) was in the supply chain and explains the use of tanks and lack of artillery (which came later). Russian tech is out of date because of age old sanctions that are biting and so the Russian coms and insistence on using mobile phones, meant a greater insight than might otherwise be expected. That’s how we know about the bungs, the bungs that got trousered and the Russians who trousered the bungs getting whacked in true gangster fashion. Putin certainly didn’t plan for where he is now in any event, and it’s not the regime where anyone gets to say truth to power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 (edited) The problem now is that Europe is heading for a massive recession this winter and it could bring about the collapse of the Euro. How long before France and Germany lose the stomach for sanctions against Russia and its oil and gas? Taking a more pragmatic view ? Oh well its only Ukraine, who really cares? Then sucking up to Putin because they need to? Secondly, although we are not in the EU anymore and never have been in the Euro (thank God). We are not going to be unaffected by what happens on the other side of the Channel. Edited August 2, 2022 by Vince Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 whatever the outcome of ukraine the rest of the world will rush to do deals with russia.the world is now run by and for snowflakes.i am old enough to remember when winter meant cold and central heating was virtually unheard of.financially and miltary wise they will rise quickly because the world will pump money into them for oil and gas and london will once again be the washer of money for them.apart from putin being killed he knows whatever the outcome he cant lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 21 minutes ago, bostonmick said: whatever the outcome of ukraine the rest of the world will rush to do deals with russia.the world is now run by and for snowflakes.i am old enough to remember when winter meant cold and central heating was virtually unheard of.financially and miltary wise they will rise quickly because the world will pump money into them for oil and gas and london will once again be the washer of money for them.apart from putin being killed he knows whatever the outcome he cant lose. He has already lost. Lost the opportunity to ever leave the job and will be forever looking over his shoulder. He is faced with two options, be killed or be traded it's simply a matter of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 54 minutes ago, bostonmick said: whatever the outcome of ukraine the rest of the world will rush to do deals with russia.the world is now run by and for snowflakes.i am old enough to remember when winter meant cold and central heating was virtually unheard of.financially and miltary wise they will rise quickly because the world will pump money into them for oil and gas and london will once again be the washer of money for them.apart from putin being killed he knows whatever the outcome he cant lose. Youre not wrong , this world runs on money and the power it brings. As much as we all like to think it runs on ethics , justice and 'doing the right thing' , money is the root motivator. 33 minutes ago, oowee said: He has already lost. Lost the opportunity to ever leave the job and will be forever looking over his shoulder. He is faced with two options, be killed or be traded it's simply a matter of time. A bit dramatic ! Blair or Bush dont seem to have a problem with their personal security, so Im sure the touted 'richest man in the world' wont either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Youre not wrong , this world runs on money and the power it brings. As much as we all like to think it runs on ethics , justice and 'doing the right thing' , money is the root motivator. A bit dramatic ! Blair or Bush dont seem to have a problem with their personal security, so Im sure the touted 'richest man in the world' wont either. Both hero's in the west with a legal basis to be. Putin will have no fall back. No amount of money can resist the pressures to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 11 minutes ago, oowee said: Both hero's in the west 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 19 minutes ago, Rewulf said: A bit dramatic ! Blair or Bush dont seem to have a problem with their personal security, so Im sure the touted 'richest man in the world' wont either. Whilst Blair and Bush are regarded are war criminals, unlike Putin they are not actually "wanted". Putin can't leave his post and he can't leave Russia. If he left his post and stayed in Russia there will be a queue of people looking to give him some of his own tea / medicine. 58 minutes ago, oowee said: He has already lost. Lost the opportunity to ever leave the job and will be forever looking over his shoulder. He is faced with two options, be killed or be traded it's simply a matter of time. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, oowee said: Both hero's in the west with a legal basis to be. Heroes to who ? Blair is one of the most derided PMs of recent history, Bush fairs better ,as long as he stays on his ranch. But its not like Blair can walk about freely , and in some countries he wouldnt last 5 minutes. And legal basis ? Depends who owns the court , doesnt it ? 7 minutes ago, Mungler said: Whilst Blair and Bush are regarded are war criminals, unlike Putin they are not actually "wanted". Putin can't leave his post and he can't leave Russia. If he left his post and stayed in Russia there will be a queue of people looking to give him some of his own tea / medicine. Is Putin wanted ? Has someone issued a warrant, on what charges ? And if Bush and Blair are regarded as war criminals like you say , where is their warrant ? Must depend on what hemisphere you live in, or 'who you know' ? Edited August 2, 2022 by Rewulf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 On 11/07/2022 at 21:50, Newbie to this said: No one said it was 'ok', just that's how it is. NATO is not an aggressive alliance, and will not defend a non-member country and rightly so. If NATO is so useless, then why has Putin not followed through on his treat to Finland and Sweden, if they tried to join NATO. Their applications are in full swing by the way. it wiĺ not be a quick succession to nato.and what would the response be if putin was to fire a few into finland or sweden now as warnings.a strongly worded speech maybe as they are only pending.the problem with the west and nato is they are run by rational people who do not want conflict.so they are basically scared when it comes to dealing with a psycho like putin.and he knows it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 21 minutes ago, bostonmick said: the problem with the west and nato is they are run by rational people who do not want conflict Theyre fine with conflict , just not in their back yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rewulf said: Theyre fine with conflict , just not in their back yard. Yes, as above, that would make them rational 🙂 No one wants sane wants to poop on their own doorstep right? . Edited August 2, 2022 by Mungler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, Mungler said: Yes, as above, that would make them rational 🙂 No one wants sane wants to poop on their own doorstep right? . Sort of makes mockery of the term 'defence' though ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 4 hours ago, oowee said: Both hero's in the west with a legal basis to be. Putin will have no fall back. No amount of money can resist the pressures to come. I'm not so sure about that, let's face it, he's not going to run out of money. He could just buy an island or country somewhere then an army and navy. But he'll likely just sit in Russia and wait for winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 14 minutes ago, Mice! said: I'm not so sure about that, let's face it, he's not going to run out of money. He could just buy an island or country somewhere then an army and navy. But he'll likely just sit in Russia and wait for winter. he has no shortage of friendly countries he could exile in.his wealth is no doubt in various parts of the world and he no doubt has enough loyal followers to aid his escape if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 47 minutes ago, bostonmick said: he has no shortage of friendly countries he could exile in.his wealth is no doubt in various parts of the world and he no doubt has enough loyal followers to aid his escape if needed. 1 hour ago, Mice! said: I'm not so sure about that, let's face it, he's not going to run out of money. He could just buy an island or country somewhere then an army and navy. But he'll likely just sit in Russia and wait for winter. I don't doubt it but he will be worth more as a trade for sanction relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 4 minutes ago, oowee said: I don't doubt it but he will be worth more as a trade for sanction relief. Can you give me a recent historical example where this has happened, say in the last 100 years ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, oowee said: I don't doubt it but he will be worth more as a trade for sanction relief. I think the sanctions will be lifted when winter hits, it won't take long turning off the gas for several countries to decide there more bothered about their own voters than the Ukraine. I didn't realise how reliant some countries were on imported gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 Just now, Mice! said: I think the sanctions will be lifted when winter hits, it won't take long turning off the gas for several countries to decide there more bothered about their own voters than the Ukraine. Damn right, the bleeding hearts will heal up quick time. The whole issue might be moot soon. Pelosi has just sneaked into Taiwan 😆 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted August 2, 2022 Report Share Posted August 2, 2022 20 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Damn right, the bleeding hearts will heal up quick time. The whole issue might be moot soon. Pelosi has just sneaked into Taiwan 😆 All most interesting, I wonder what China will do now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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