Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

So, I have over recent years lost any respect for Amnesty international an organisation apparently fully and only stocked with Jeremy Corbyn carbon cut outs and who rarely get stuck into any Russian or Chinese issues / abuses.

Anyways, they’ve taken a deserved bashing in all media platforms (except the pro Russian ones) for victim blaming the Ukrainians in their response to being invaded and all the while with no criticism of Russia for the invasion. 

• Such violations in no way justify Russia’s indiscriminate attacks, which have killed and injured countless civilians
• In one town in Donbas on 6 May, Russian forces used widely banned and inherently indiscriminate cluster munitions over a neighbourhood of mostly single or two-storey homes where Ukrainian forces were operating artillery. Shrapnel damaged the walls of the house where Anna, 70, lives with her son and 95-year-old mother. 

Ill start by saying , Ive never had much time for Amnesty Int. But what I will say is , when they report something , its usually based on hard evidence.
As in this case, no one one has refuted the findings of the evidence collected, which was presented to the Ukrainian government a week before the report was published, they declined to comment.
What DID  happen , was Amnesty Ukraine , who MUST have helped compile the dossier, (which DID NOT set out to besmirch the Ukrainians at all , but to report on Russia , illegally shelling civilians.) disavowed any involvement in compiling the report... thats right , they had NO involvement whatsoever , instead 'blaming' their colleagues from other countries for the wholly inaccurate findings, I find this very hard to believe.
Personally , I reckon they were severley threatened by the government to disconnect themselves from it all, the head of Amnesty Ukr has since resigned.
Today Amesty Int. issued this statement.
 

Amnesty International said it “deeply regrets the distress and anger” caused after it alleged Ukrainian forces were flouting international law by exposing civilians to Russian fire.

The rights group said “we fully stand by our findings” but stressed, “nothing we documented Ukrainian forces doing in any way justifies Russian violations”.

20 hours ago, Mungler said:

I smell an agreement of sorts in the wind - whilst Russian artillery has flattened most of the East (the bit they wanted, well done them) but now the Russian pain is getting to a point it can’t be ignored. 

If a deal is going to happen, it has to be now whilst there’s good weather. Get into winter and this will drag out even longer with the Russians believing an energy advantage will get them a better deal (and they could be right).

What kind of deal do you envisage, genuinely interested ?

The reason I ask, and I dont actually have my own projection, is I found the viewpoint in the following video very interesting.
The bloke in it is an ex US marine, and very pro Ukraine, yet his view is very well balanced, but comes with some hard truths.
Have a look, and tell me what you think.

 

 

 

BTW ,THIS is victim blaming .

 

[Scully]

‘Illegally shelling civilians’! That term and it’s implications would be hilarious if not for the present circumstances. 

[Rewulf]

37 minutes ago, Scully said:

‘Illegally shelling civilians’! That term and it’s implications would be hilarious if not for the present circumstances. 

The illegal part of it would be if a party ,Russia in this instance, deliberately target areas with civilian concentrations, knowing that there are no enemy units or infrastructure sited there.
This is a war crime.
This is also something Russia is constantly accused of , and I am not saying they havent done this, I dont know, but I will not go on the say so of the Ukrainian government.

Now if there were military units or infrastructure near to where the  civilians were killed or injured, then this , to coin an American invented term, is 'collateral damage' and is not a war crime.
So one civilian death could be illegal, and another not.
This is why the Ukrainians are so butt hurt by Amnestys report, not only does it accuse the Ukraine military of using their citizens as human shields, it also negates the accusation of Russia deliberately targeting civilians , which has always been a media victory for Ukrainian propaganda.

To clarify , 'Illegally shelling civilians' IS illegal, unless there were enemy units nearby that were the intended target.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

The illegal part of it would be if a party ,Russia in this instance, deliberately target areas with civilian concentrations, knowing that there are no enemy units or infrastructure sited there.
This is a war crime.
This is also something Russia is constantly accused of , and I am not saying they havent done this, I dont know, but I will not go on the say so of the Ukrainian government.

Now if there were military units or infrastructure near to where the  civilians were killed or injured, then this , to coin an American invented term, is 'collateral damage' and is not a war crime.
So one civilian death could be illegal, and another not.
This is why the Ukrainians are so butt hurt by Amnestys report, not only does it accuse the Ukraine military of using their citizens as human shields, it also negates the accusation of Russia deliberately targeting civilians , which has always been a media victory for Ukrainian propaganda.

To clarify , 'Illegally shelling civilians' IS illegal, unless there were enemy units nearby that were the intended target.

I know it’s illegal; it’s just the sheer stupidity of creating legislation of how wars are conducted! It’s war! Putin couldn’t care less of the legality of what he does or how he fights a war; they may as well make invasions of other countries illegal. Ludicrous! 
Israeli air strikes; indiscriminate bombing in Syria. Futile legislation.
It’s not as if anyone is going to stand trial for it, but there you go. Just adds to the madness I suppose. 🤷‍♂️

[Rewulf]

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

I know it’s illegal; it’s just the sheer stupidity of creating legislation of how wars are conducted! It’s war! Putin couldn’t care less of the legality of what he does or how he fights a war; they may as well make invasions of other countries illegal. Ludicrous! 

I know what youre saying.
FWIW this is covered in the video I posted earlier 'International law' forbids invading other sovereign countries, but who monitors and administers international law ?
It is a ludicrous situation when one country participates in regime change, and invasion, and its perfectly OK , and another , who isnt 'in the club' does something very similar, and gets widely condemned for it ?
No matter who you support, or who you believe, theres always some poor sod on the receiving end , who just wants to live a peaceful life and scratch a living.

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

Israeli air strikes; indiscriminate bombing in Syria. Futile legislation.
It’s not as if anyone is going to stand trial for it, but there you go. Just adds to the madness I suppose. 🤷‍♂️

100% 

[toontastic]

49 minutes ago, Scully said:

I know it’s illegal; it’s just the sheer stupidity of creating legislation of how wars are conducted! It’s war! Putin couldn’t care less of the legality of what he does or how he fights a war; they may as well make invasions of other countries illegal. Ludicrous! 
Israeli air strikes; indiscriminate bombing in Syria. Futile legislation.
It’s not as if anyone is going to stand trial for it, but there you go. Just adds to the madness I suppose. 🤷‍♂️

You mention Israeli air strikes alongside indiscriminate bombing in Syria but fail to mention terrorists launching 100s of missiles at civilian targets. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

You mention Israeli air strikes alongside indiscriminate bombing in Syria but fail to mention terrorists launching 100s of missiles at civilian targets. 

Got to agree. The comment wasn't even handed. Israel normally retaliates, rather than first strike.

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, toontastic said:

You mention Israeli air strikes alongside indiscriminate bombing in Syria but fail to mention terrorists launching 100s of missiles at civilian targets. 

Its interesting you mention 'terrorists' , while I wont argue whether they are or not, look at this definition.

In the UK we define terrorism as a violent action that: Endangers a person's life, other than that of the person committing the action. Involves serious violence against a person. Causes serious damage to property. Creates a serious risk to the public's health and safety.

A look at terrorists definition.
'a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.'

Now look at those definitions and decide whether they apply to one, both , or neither party in the case of Gaza ?

I say its interesting , because the title of terrorists , along with orcs, rachists ect have been used lately to describe the Russian invader.
Nuclear terrorists, is the best one so far , as the Russian forces at Zaphorhizia nuclear power station, who have held it since march, and allowed it to supply Ukraine with electricity, have been accused of shelling themselves, and now , rigging the entire complex to blow, causing a nuclear disaster that would err, cause more damage to Russia than anyone else,
It came from the Ukraine government , so it must be true.

2 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Got to agree. The comment wasn't even handed. Israel normally retaliates, rather than first strike.

In this instance, the missiles fired were in retaliation for the bombing of Islamic jihads leader, now Im certainly not saying that he didnt deserve what was coming to him, but women and children were also killed in the airstrike.
Collateral ? Accepted fatalities , human shields ?

[toontastic]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

In this instance, the missiles fired were in retaliation for the bombing of Islamic jihads leader, now Im certainly not saying that he didnt deserve what was coming to him, but women and children were also killed in the airstrike.

Collateral ? Accepted fatalities , human shields ?

Islamic Jihad have an ideology similar to Al queda or isis, when their leaders are killed by drone strikes or missile attacks and civilians are killed and injured why doesn't the world condemn the USA or UK

[Stonepark]

When was the last time Syria bombed Israel?

Israel is simply following the 'old dogma of any time a competitor gets close to be a threat, bomb the **** out of them and use your 80 year old history to justify it.

In this case (Palestine, West Bank, Gaza strip etc), Israel is the invader, and forcing apartheid on populations etc and yet everyone cheers them on...

 

Israel, just completed 3 days of bombing of Palestines who "launched" supposedly a thousand plus rockets in retaliation for Israeli assasinations and injured 4 people, Israel's response, bomb Palestine, kill 44, 300 wounded.

At some point, someone is going to work out that providing the Palestinian's with Stinger equivalents and anti-tank weapons will allow them to take on Israel or at least severely limit their response.

[toontastic]

2 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

When was the last time Syria bombed Israel?

Israel is simply following the 'old dogma of any time a competitor gets close to be a threat, bomb the **** out of them and use your 80 year old history to justify it.

In this case (Palestine, West Bank, Gaza strip etc), Israel is the invader, and forcing apartheid on populations etc and yet everyone cheers them on...

 

Israel, just completed 3 days of bombing of Palestines who "launched" supposedly a thousand plus rockets in retaliation for Israeli assasinations and injured 4 people, Israel's response, bomb Palestine, kill 44, 300 wounded.

At some point, someone is going to work out that providing the Palestinian's with Stinger equivalents and anti-tank weapons will allow them to take on Israel or at least severely limit their response.

You really don't know anything about history. 

But let's get the apartheid out of the way, Israel is so good at apartheid the supreme Court judge is an Arab, the army has Arab commanders and pilots are also Arab. Some Schools, Hospitals and Universities are run by Arabs. Arabs have seats in Parliament in fact Arabs in Israel have the same rights as Jews. So much for apartheid. 

As for Palestinians up until 1968 there was no such thing as a Palestinian people it was a term invented by the Egyptian born Arab of Saudi heritage Yasser Arafat.

There was a Jordanian terrorist at the time who said "they just started coming around telling us we were no longer Jordanian or Egyptian but had to start calling ourselves Palestinian"  

* up until the 1940s Arabs used to call Jews Palestinian as a way of insulting them. 

As for Jews being invaders under the 1894 census carried out by the Ottoman Empire it showed Jerusalems population was 84% Jewish. But you keep reading left wing comics and I'll keep visiting museums and libraries and read books pre WW2. 

[Gordon R]

I find it interesting that the comparison between the two boils down to how many were killed on either side. Israel can hardly be criticised for its defence system shooting down incoming rockets. Should they let a few through to make people feel better about the conflict?

When the Palestinians send a thousand rockets, do they target non civilian areas or do they just fire them off? No prizes for the answer.

[ditchman]

it is WAR....war is total and nothing is off the board........dont know why people complain....kill or be killed

war is a very dirty BUISNESS.....and yes it is a buisness lots of us have shares in it....and a damned good investment too 

war has less morals than a John Wick movie

Edited August 8, 2022 by ditchman

[toontastic]

Just a few more points mainly on Apartheid, Arabs can own property in Israel but it is an offence in most Arab/Islamic countries for Jews to own property in fact it is a capital offence to sell to a Jew in some countries.

Let's talk about peace oh hang on we can't because talking about peace with Israel carrys a death sentence in some countries, Iraq is the most recent to pass that law. 

The World is quick to condemn Israel but Arabs are payed a bounty for killing Jews anything up to $2500 a month (killing young children earns a higher bounty) so were is the condemnation. On Friday The Imman at the Grand Mosque in Mecca reminded the worshippers of their duty to kill Jews as they need to be eradicated again were was the world's condemnation. 

 

[Rewulf]

29 minutes ago, toontastic said:

Islamic Jihad have an ideology similar to Al queda or isis, when their leaders are killed by drone strikes or missile attacks and civilians are killed and injured why doesn't the world condemn the USA or UK

Maybe because its usually Israel that does the bombing ?
And you know very well you cant criticise Israel, its anti semitic ...

 

17 minutes ago, toontastic said:

But let's get the apartheid out of the way, Israel is so good at apartheid the supreme Court judge is an Arab, the army has Arab commanders and pilots are also Arab. Some Schools, Hospitals and Universities are run by Arabs. Arabs have seats in Parliament in fact Arabs in Israel have the same rights as Jews. So much for apartheid. 

Whilst I dont agree with the apartheid comment, the way government and army is somehow 'full of Arabs' is highly misleading ....
The Knesset has 14 Arab members, seeing as some districts  are predominantly Arab , this isnt surprising , the fact that most of them are Druze or Christian, traditional allies of the Israelis, is very telling.
The IDF has recently done a massive recruiting drive to get more Arabs in , they have managed to increase numbers 10 x to 500...Out of 700,000 regulars and fast reservists.
Out of the 500 , there are 2 officers, neither in any high ranking posts.

 

22 minutes ago, toontastic said:

As for Palestinians up until 1968 there was no such thing as a Palestinian people it was a term invented by the Egyptian born Arab of Saudi heritage Yasser Arafat.

That statement is pure rubbish , the term Palestine goes back hundreds of years, and was even referenced in the late Roman period. 

27 minutes ago, toontastic said:

As for Jews being invaders under the 1894 census carried out by the Ottoman Empire it showed Jerusalems population was 84% Jewish.

Population of 'Jews' Jerusalem hasnt been that high percentage wise ,ever.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/population-of-jerusalem-1844-2009

10 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

When the Palestinians send a thousand rockets, do they target non civilian areas or do they just fire them off? No prizes for the answer.

I reckon half of whatever they send (home made rockets mostly) end up falling into the desert or killing the operators.
99% of the rest get shot down by Iron dome.
When the Gazans learn to not shoot back , they might get somewhere.

[toontastic]

11 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I find it interesting that the comparison between the two boils down to how many were killed on either side. Israel can hardly be criticised for its defence system shooting down incoming rockets. Should they let a few through to make people feel better about the conflict?

When the Palestinians send a thousand rockets, do they target non civilian areas or do they just fire them off? No prizes for the answer.

Funnily enough at a UN meeting last year (chaired by North Korea and attended by Yemen, Iran and Syria amongst others) Israel was criticised for using its tech and a suggestion was made that the Arabs should be offered the same tech. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

When the Gazans learn to not shoot back , they might get somewhere.

Correct. Cause and effect.

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Correct. Cause and effect.

I have a lot of sympathy for the but the treatment of Palestinians through the system of segregation, apartheid and forced relocation, is appalling.  

[Scully]

1 hour ago, toontastic said:

You mention Israeli air strikes alongside indiscriminate bombing in Syria but fail to mention terrorists launching 100s of missiles at civilian targets. 

I wasn’t picking sides at all; I am totally indifferent as to who struck first. 
Air strikes and cease fires have been a constant in the news ever since I can recall. They’re all as mad as a bag of ferrets! 🙂
 

[Gordon R]

oowee / Scully - I don't disagree. After so many years of conflict, I just don't see an end to it.

[toontastic]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

That statement is pure rubbish , the term Palestine goes back hundreds of years, and was even referenced in the late Roman period. 

Yes the term Palestine was there as the Romans did indeed name the region that. But the idea the Arabs are referred to as Palestinian is a fairly new concept. Censuses over the ages simply referred to the population as either Arab or Jew no group was identified as being a Palestinian people. 

 

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Maybe because its usually Israel that does the bombing ?
And you know very well you cant criticise Israel, its anti semitic ...

But not against Al Queda and Isis targets. 

I'm happy to accept criticism but some of it is driven by Anti-semitism.

 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, toontastic said:

Censuses over the ages simply referred to the population as either Arab or Jew no group was identified as being a Palestinian people. 

Fair enough, but live long enough in a country with a name , and eventually you will start calling yourself that.
Welsh , or Welch as it was , derived from Saxon welisċ , means foreigner.

1 minute ago, toontastic said:

I'm happy to accept criticism but some of it is driven by Anti-semitism.

Limited these days to knuckle dragging nazis , and members of the labour party in this country.
I cant say for the rest of the world , it might be deemed xenophobic.

[toontastic]

2 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

oowee / Scully - I don't disagree. After so many years of conflict, I just don't see an end to it.

The end is in sight but Iran and the extremists who think all infidels should be removed from the middle east are making it hard. 

Only last week closer ties between Israel and Morocco were announced, there is a huge trading estate/business park being planned on the Jordan Israel border, designed to bring thousands of well paying jobs to  both Arab and Jew

The Abraham Accord is  developing closer links between Arab and Jew but Iran and its proxys are against it. 

[toontastic]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

I cant say for the rest of the world , it might be deemed xenophobic.

It's the little things the media condemns the Israeli blockade but often fails to mention that Egypt also blockade. 

The UN describing the term "Jewish state" as an apartheid term but saying "Islamic Republic" is acceptable why just criticise the Jewish one. 

[Mungler]

My understanding of the Palestinian casualties was that they fired 600 home made rockets at Israel, most didn’t make the distance and dropped into residential areas.