Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, Mungler said:

My understanding of the Palestinian casualties was that they fired 600 home made rockets at Israel, most didn’t make the distance and dropped into residential areas. 

Quite possibly, just like in the Ukrainian story, the launchers were sited near to civilian buildings, and it doesnt really matter how precise your ordnance is , 500ib bombs dont need to hit your house to level it.
Buildings in that region arent known for their strength.

The Israelis have drones and combat aircraft constantly on patrol monitoring Gaza , as soon as a launch is seen, theres a bomb or missile on its way to that site, and they arent bothered what its next to.

[toontastic]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Quite possibly, just like in the Ukrainian story, the launchers were sited near to civilian buildings, and it doesnt really matter how precise your ordnance is , 500ib bombs dont need to hit your house to level it.
Buildings in that region arent known for their strength.

The Israelis have drones and combat aircraft constantly on patrol monitoring Gaza , as soon as a launch is seen, theres a bomb or missile on its way to that site, and they arent bothered what its next to.

He's talking about Arab rockets falling on residential areas and yet you still manage to blame the Israelis. 

Today I've seen footage of rockets falling straight back down the earth and exploding in residential areas. Shin Bet also sent out warnings for areas to be evacuated and IAF pilots aborted missions due to observing children on the ground. 

[Rewulf]

Just now, toontastic said:

He's talking about Arab rockets falling on residential areas and yet you still manage to blame the Israelis. 

As I said , they might well have done, are you saying the Israelis didnt hit any residential areas 

Just now, toontastic said:

Today I've seen footage of rockets falling straight back down the earth and exploding in residential areas. Shin Bet also sent out warnings for areas to be evacuated and IAF pilots aborted missions due to observing children on the ground. 

They sent out warnings to who ?
How did they do this ?
Are you saying they let IJ fire their rockets, then told everyone in the area to move out because they were going to conduct an airstrike, thus letting the rocket artillery men  escape, really ?
Im not disputing some rockets fell on residential buildings, but to blame them for the major proportion of the destruction and death ?

[toontastic]

It's not the rocket sites they notify them about being attacked, it's ammo stores, radio stations and political offices. 

Some of the areas that had casualties were not on the IAF target area so the damage was most likely a falling rocket. 

I don't know who exactly they notify in Gaza but there are intermediaries who act as a go between. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by toontastic

[Flashman]

And we finally end up with Godwin’s Law by proxy. 

Somebody should produce a bingo card of the mentalist cliches chucked out by a certain type of pub bore know-it-all that we have now read in this thread:

- “mainstream media” liars

- Russia only defending itself

- West provoked it

- Brexit to blame

- What about Israel..?

What’s next, I wonder?  The Royal family..? Rand Corporation..? Military Industrial Complex?  Israel..?

You’d think that Alex Jones’ Sandy Hook lies and subsequent bankruptcy would make these people a little more circumspect, but self-awareness is not in their repertoire.  

Oh, and what about Israel..?

Edited August 8, 2022 by Flashman

[Rewulf]

43 minutes ago, Flashman said:

And we finally end up with Godwin’s Law by proxy

Come on! We had Godwins law about 50 pages ago! 

Go back to the beginning, and spend the next 12 hours reading the whole thread, it's got everything you've mentioned and more 😂

You can't just pop up like a jack in the box, pass withering judgment from your intellectually superior high ground, then slip away till next time. 

Get involved, don't just do the mental equivalent of driving past a bus stop and shouting bus w£&@|-£# out the window. 😉

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

You can't just pop up like a jack in the box, pass withering judgment from your intellectually superior high ground, then slip away till next time. 

Get involved, don't just do the mental equivalent of driving past a bus stop and shouting bus w£&@|-£# out the window. 😉

 

Rewulf - made me smile for the second time.

[ditchman]

that was quite funny

a very polite ticking off

[Mungler]

The fall out of the Amnesty report continues. This is a long read but it’s worthwhile 

https://bylinetimes.com/2022/08/08/why-did-amnesty-international-ignore-my-warnings-about-their-ukraine-investigation/?fbclid=IwAR09S9ZcjASy9tCT6WUT-N-izqWySPWa9E6HgmX-thlw7Px39mSdOWWKyZg&fs=e&s=cl

Needless to say, there’s two distinct sides to that amnesty ‘story’

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Needless to say, there’s two distinct sides to that amnesty ‘story’

Of course there is , there is always 2 sides ...isnt there ??

Heres my observations from your link, which is interesting in the fact that a man who works with , and used to support AI , now seeks to defame and ridicule them, because he doesnt agree with their viewpoint over Ukraine (IE , they have criticised the Ukrainian military) its a familiar scenario.

Statements like this.

“The most important thing I’ve learned about covering conflicts in over twenty years doing this job. Never take a side,” Rivera told me as I left the table in May. “All governments lie to you. Your job as a reporter or researcher is to be strictly impartial and report only the facts.”

However, I believe Amnesty International’s attempt to be objective has led to a damaging false equivalence that equates the invader with the invaded, and the aggressor with the victim. From now on, whenever Russian soldiers indiscriminately attack Ukrainian civilians, they will use the imprimatur of Amnesty International to defend their actions.
What he doesnt say is the evidence found that supports the allegation is untrue, fake or misleading, he just doesnt LIKE what it insinuates.

“You need to balance military necessity with proportionality, so you need to take reasonable measures to protect civilians but that must be balanced with your orders to defend an area,” He told Byline Times. “If the enemy is attacking a certain urban area, then you are going to need to occupy it. There is no war in history where civilians have completely removed themselves from the combat zone.”. 

1. Military necessity with proportionality, does military necessity over ride the safety of civilians , particularly  YOUR citizens ?
As much as its important to not get your men killed or lose the battle/war , is it OK to do it at the expense of non combatants? What moral ground is this ?

2.If the enemy is attacking an urban area... This is pure misdirection and failed logic , for one , if theres no military there, why would the enemy attack it ? Point two, these are long range artillery exchanges, artillery duels as they used to be called, you try and destroy the other sides stuff.
If you park that artillery in a city , theyre going to fire at it, and they miss , a lot.
Its perfectly possible to put your SAMs , MLRS and cannon in open areas , but then you can be seen easier from the air , and Russia has 90 % air superiority....
The Ukrainians have deliberately used the cover of residential building, of that there is no question, some of these buildings still had people in them, and some of them were killed.

From now on, whenever Russian soldiers indiscriminately attack Ukrainian civilians, they will use the imprimatur of Amnesty International to defend their actions.

This is the crux. The meat, and why Ukraine are so angry.
Before the AI report, Ukraine could inarguably claim that Russia was deliberately and INDICRIMINATELY targeting civilians, as far as media gold goes , it doesnt get better, evil Russkie orcs ect...
Now that argument has lost weight, could it be true that Ukraine was using its own people as human shields ?
Well AI says so , so AI are supporting the Russians  then , and its their fault when more civilians die, according to Zelensky.

Finally.

The head of Amnesty International's Ukraine office has resigned, accusing the rights watchdog of parroting Kremlin propaganda in a report that criticized Kyiv's military response to Russia's unprovoked invasion.

The report sparked fury in Kyiv. Top officials including Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy dismissed it. Zelenskyy accused Amnesty International of an “attempt to grant amnesty to the terrorist state and to shift blame from the aggressor to the victim of aggression.” When the report was published, Pokalchuk said that Amnesty’s Ukraine office had not been involved in its preparation.

These ‘mobs and trolls’ seemed to include the head of Amnesty International’s Ukraine branch, who resigned in protest after the report’s publication, saying that local staff had very little input on the report and that it omitted crucial facts and context.
She seemed disinclined to name these facts and context.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/06/amnesty-now-utterly-morally-bankrupt/

 

 

[Flashman]

18 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Come on! We had Godwins law about 50 pages ago! 

Go back to the beginning, and spend the next 12 hours reading the whole thread, it's got everything you've mentioned and more 😂

You can't just pop up like a jack in the box, pass withering judgment from your intellectually superior high ground, then slip away till next time. 

Get involved, don't just do the mental equivalent of driving past a bus stop and shouting bus w£&@|-£# out the window. 😉

Why “get involved”?

The most active posters on this thread won’t be convinced by any fact, argument or opinion except those which support their own point of view.

If I could be bothered, no doubt I’d see the same PW “experts” on the Covid and Brexit threads.

Were they Israel’s fault as well?

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Flashman said:

Why “get involved”?

Why criticise those you disagree with ?

11 minutes ago, Flashman said:

The most active posters on this thread won’t be convinced by any fact, argument or opinion except those which support their own point of view.

People sometimes have strong opinions because what they have seen, heard , researched, and occasionally tested, has bought them to that opinion.
Its true that they seldom want to change that opinion, because they have invested time and effort in reinforcing said opinion.
There are plenty others who just read the front page of a newspaper, or TV news piece , and form their opinion from that, as in , accept someone elses opinion as their own, without research or test.
They too will defend this 'opinion of theirs'

This is the problem, no one wants to admit theyre wrong, even when they are proved to be.
Many just walk away, rather than acknowledge that their opinion was misguided/wrong.

19 minutes ago, Flashman said:

If I could be bothered, no doubt I’d see the same PW “experts” on the Covid and Brexit threads.

No doubt you would, is there a problem with that ?
Some people like myself, have strong opinions on some subjects, does that make them a bit weird ?
Myself and Mungler dont share the same opinions on the Ukraine conflict, not so much as who is the aggressor , or whether Russia was wrong to invade, those are taken as a given, I just believe there is far more to it , more background meddling from other parties, he believes this isnt relevant.
But at the end of it , I do not want to see this conflict continue, and neither does he.
Yet it might surprise you that when it comes to covid or Brexit, our opinions align very well, where other parties didnt agree with us at all.

At the end of the day , I do like a good debate, and if I didnt learn something from it, I wouldnt do it.
Thats why I said get involved (if you have time) you might learn something too, and others from you.

29 minutes ago, Flashman said:

Were they Israel’s fault as well?

It wasnt really a big deal mentioning Israel, it was in the news that day, so it got bought up, I dont make a habit of going after Israel, and I believe it may have been the first time it was mentioned in this thread.
Israel is surrounded by enemies, states who have sworn to destroy it at some point , they have every right to defend themselves.
But...they know full well the hot headedness of their Arab neighbours, they also knew full well that taking out the IJ leader would bring a response.
The powers that be in Gaza also knew full well the IDF would hammer them back, far worse than a few home made Grads, yet they still did it , because they cant help themselves, theyre culture demands retribution for transgressions.
Its about time there was some adult behaviour on both sides , as one day a group like Islamic jihad might get their mitts on something a bit worse than a home made rocket, and there wont be a moments hesitation in using it next time Israel sends the boys in.

This SHOULD be a great fear for the west, we are at loggerheads/brink of war with 2 superpower nuclear armed nations , with the technical capacity for MAD.
What if they decide that the west is in fact, trying to strategically and economically destroy them (which in the case of Russia, isnt far off) would you not embrace the enemy of my enemy is my friend concept, and secretly supply them with something they would really like , a nuke ? A couple of tonnes of nerve agent ?
Imagine such things in the hands of IJ or IS, absolute carnage.
These are delicate times, make no mistake.

[Penelope]

economically destroy them 

Looks like China are doing this themselves.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Penelope
misspelling.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

Looks like China are doing this themselves.

While the US/NATO pour money and weapons into Ukraine , China just gets stronger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su5w5kjxGHw

[oowee]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

While the US/NATO pour money and weapons into Ukraine , China just gets stronger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su5w5kjxGHw

What a load of carp. Could not get past the Ukraine bit to hear about China. Ukraine is worth every penny. We have to stand up for the rights that we believe in. 

Interesting proposition for Russia to bail out Turkey.

[Rewulf]

17 minutes ago, oowee said:

What a load of carp.

Which bits ?
The 30-40 % of weapons getting through , or the accusation they are being sold on to persons unknown ?
Its established that a huge portion of US aid for Ukraine money isnt spent on Ukraine, but on US defence needs, so there plenty of room for deception in the figures.

The bigger question , which is touched upon , is why the US would spend so much money on Ukraine, the vast majority of it in arms.
Is it AID , as in , it doesnt want payment for it, or is it loans and SALES ?

The distinction is important, because if Ukraine has to pay back this money, how are they going to achieve this, they will need constant topping up of their defence budget whatever happens? 
Their economy is shattered, and their GDP will not recover for many years, interest rates will be crippling. 

If its a gift, how do US taxpayers feel about this , whats in it for them, whats in it for America ?
All I see is contracts for rebuilding and defence that Ukraine cannot possibly afford, so they will have to borrow.
We are talking Greece style national debt, in a recognised highly corrupt country , with added austerity and misery, this will worsen the longer it continues.
So you may think its a load of carp, but who stands to win anything out of this ?
Ukraine , Debt and misery even if they 'win'
Russia , Sanctions and reputational damage , even if they 'win'
Europe , Refugees , defaulted loans , recession and fuel uncertainty.
The US , Disgruntled tax payers who wonder what its all about , most of whom dont even know where Ukraine is .

MIC , Its a win win for them...For years to come , as war paranoia is nurtured and harvested.

Personally Id take the blinkers off and watch the video again, I can assure you WION is not pro Russian in any way, they have done some very damning reports on Russian behaviour in Ukraine.

[Mungler]

The on selling of weapons is a nonsense and a standard pot stir - the Ukranians aren't daft enough to tell everyone what they are doing, planning or where they are stashing the gear. Unlike the Russians...

Interesting to see that enough weapons are getting through and finding their way to another refuelling accident in Crimea for which the Russians hold the Ukrainians solely responsible for said "accident". Lots of ammo and planes gone poof.

Margarita Simonyan a Putin pet and head of RT flipped out spectacularly - RT with a strap line of "Question more" has now instructed all Russians that the time for questions is at an end. Turns out they just can't get the population to stop asking questions and wondering *** Putin is playing at.

Clearly there's no accountants with any sway in Russia - the balance sheet cost of this war to Russia is just jaw droppingly mental. Well done that very clever military campaigner Mr. Putin, and yes, his best weapon right now happens to be good old Winter.

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, Mungler said:

The on selling of weapons is a nonsense and a standard pot stir - the Ukranians aren't daft enough to tell everyone what they are doing, planning or where they are stashing the gear. Unlike the Russians...

Might well be , impossible to prove or disprove, Im not aware of any accusations from the Russians about it though ?
What I will say, is you always here of Russian ammo dumps being destroyed ect , never once do the Ukrainians ever admit to any losses...

27 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Interesting to see that enough weapons are getting through and finding their way to another refuelling accident in Crimea for which the Russians hold the Ukrainians solely responsible for said "accident". Lots of ammo and planes gone poof.

What is interesting is that the Russians cant have it both ways, they havent actually said the airfield came under fire, and the Ukrainians have said its nothing to do with them*
But such is the attitude toward Russian statements, that when they say some ammo went off , we get 'Haha , theyre lying , Ukraine battered them again !' 
*Problem : Russia has always said , if Ukraine attacks Crimea, the war goes up a gear..

Edit: Some agencies in Ukraine have claimed the airfield was attacked by Ukrainian special forces.
 

27 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Winter

Is coming.....
Lets see how it all pans out when the gas gets cut off, and EU industry grinds to a halt.
And no , Im not gloating at all , this will do me and mine no favours , Im already dreading it.

I mean theoretically , whats going to happen when present contracts run out, and Russia puts the prices up ?
I think weve already accepted there is no short term alternative for heating and industry available.
I reckon Ukraine might become that 'friend' that gets put on the ignore list soon.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Rewulf
More recent news

[Mungler]

We are beyond the tipping point and are now well into in for a penny in for a pound - we’ll all get by with higher energy prices but it’s going to hurt, there will be casualties, no one will like it and it will probably cost the Tory’s the next election but no one is going to make friends with Putin. 

It’s a total Russian disaster of their own making and at least we’ll be pushing a few more nuclear power stations through sooner rather than later.

If only Putin would get out and about bit more and let someone have a pop at him - the queue of his own countrymen must be growing longer by the day.

[ordnance]

Quote

What I will say, is you always here of Russian ammo dumps being destroyed ect , never once do the Ukrainians ever admit to any losses...

I wouldn't expect them to, why would any army inform the enemy of its losses. 

Quote

Problem : Russia has always said , if Ukraine attacks Crimea, the war goes up a gear..

What they might invade the whole country and depose the leadership, did they not already try a that and fail miserably  

[Rewulf]

14 hours ago, ordnance said:

14 hours ago, ordnance said:

 

What they might invade the whole country and depose the leadership, did they not already try a that and fail miserably  

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-threatens-doomsday-if-ukraine-attacks-crimea-russian-media-1725383

Make of that what you will, but as Russia see Crimea as being Russian territory now....
An attack on Russian 'soil' might give them an excuse to do stuff they havent done already, and no Im not going to speculate.
The question is , was it worth it for a few planes, and some ammo ?

Zelensky has been very vocal lately, 'The war wont be over until we have Crimea back !'
As much as Id like to think that is a noble mission, Im beginning to wonder if his steroid intake is beginning to affect his judgment.

14 hours ago, ordnance said:

I wouldn't expect them to, why would any army inform the enemy of its losses. 

Well they wouldnt need to would they, the Ukrainians appear to know to a man , what Russian losses are (What do they say 50-60,000 dead now, even though best estimates from NATO say 15000, and a similar number for Ukraine) so its reasonable to assume the Russian know exactly how many Ukrainians theyve killed too , even though most engagements are conducted at extreme ranges ?

Or we could just ask Bellingcat, they seem to know exactly how many missiles each side has fired , how many vehicles lost, they must know losses of each side, and all they had to do was google it 😜

I dont hear much about your 'Made in Belfast' Starstreak HVM use in Ukraine these days ?
Maybe they too have decided its a load of pants 
Good friend of mine is in RA down south , and is in a Starstreak battery, theyve put so much money into it , they cant let it go , knowing full well its virtually useless against anything moving.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Rewulf

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-threatens-doomsday-if-ukraine-attacks-crimea-russian-media-1725383

Make of that what you will, but as Russia see Crimea as being Russian territory now....
An attack on Russian 'soil' might give them an excuse to do stuff they havent done already, and no Im not going to speculate.
The question is , was it worth it for a few planes, and some ammo ?

Zelensky has been very vocal lately, 'The war wont be over until we have Crimea back !'
As much as Id like to think that is a noble mission, Im beginning to wonder if his steroid intake is beginning to affect his judgment.

 

Looks like 13 planes so well worth the effort. Zelensky has to start to set out his negotiating position for when Russia call it in over the next few months. 

[Robden]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

Looks like 13 planes so well worth the effort. Zelensky has to start to set out his negotiating position for when Russia call it in over the next few months. 

Can't see Putin calling it a day, without at least TALKING about his nuclear option. But would he use it?!?  Who knows.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Looks like 13 planes so well worth the effort. Zelensky has to start to set out his negotiating position for when Russia call it in over the next few months. 

Zelensky has set out his proposals for negotiations (Or hes set out what the US has told him to say) which is, 'No negotiations until ALL Russian forces leave Ukraine territory , including Crimea'
Quite why he didnt ask for Russias unconditional surrender, Putins head on a silver platter, and all Russian petrochem  revenue for 100 years Ive no idea ?
His bargaining position is that strong 😆

1 hour ago, Robden said:

Can't see Putin calling it a day, without at least TALKING about his nuclear option. But would he use it?!?  Who knows.

Lets run a little scenario.
Putin gives 48 hrs for the residents of Kiev to evacuate the city, as hes going to put a 500 kt nuke in there (for whatever reason, does he need one ?) Unless Ukraine surrender.
The west is obviously outraged, and threaten err , more sanctions...Or to cut Russian access off to Netflix, or something they havent already barred them from.
Apart from that, what else are they going to do , declare war on Russia, and its 6000 more nuclear warheads ? I dont think so.
Now you may be thinking , would he do such a thing ?
Well why not , hes a lunatic , mad ting , with  months to live, and  desires on bringing the Russian empire/USSR/ Warsaw pact or whatever back ?

The other side of the coin , what would Zambo do , tell everyone to stay put, they can be martyrs for Ukraine blah blah...
Would he take Bidens helicopter , and leave someone else to sort it, or surrender and face the music ?
My money is on him asking for the west to smoke Moscow first, and to hell with the consequences.

Discuss.

[ordnance]

Quote

Well they wouldnt need to would they, the Ukrainians appear to know to a man , what Russian losses are (What do they say 50-60,000 dead now, 

And you are surprised that a army and its commanders might exaggerate enemy losses, you are not that naïve are you 

Quote

I dont hear much about your 'Made in Belfast' Starstreak HVM use in Ukraine these days ?
Maybe they too have decided its a load of pants 
Good friend of mine is in RA down south , and is in a Starstreak battery, theyve put so much money into it , they cant let it go , knowing full well its virtually useless against anything moving.

Have you any good friends that can inform us on the NLAW anti tank missile also manufactured in Belfast, I bet there are a lot of Russians not laughing at the NLAW, unless of course you have a good friend that knows differently  

Edited August 11, 2022 by ordnance