HSE lead ammo proposals - FAQs and updates

[PeterHenry]

23 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

However steel shot and the speed required for it to perform properly is not very pleasant to shoot in a light game gun 

it seems that we will be shooting game with heavy wildfowling guns in the future or not at all 

 

Thats true - I found it was pretty vile with my AYA no2 and steel 32g 4's.  However, Musto make a fantastic thing that you put over your shoulder and the fabric locks up when the gun recoils. Using that, steel is no worse than lead recoil wise. I think you can even buy gilet's with built in pockets for them, so you don't have to mess around with the harness thingy.

Edit - this is the thing https://www.amazon.co.uk/Musto-d3o-recoil-reducer-shield/dp/B005YCZTFU

 

I'll also add that the layvale 30g '5' 2 2/1" earthwads have negligible recoil - the AYA digests the quite happily. Intfact, for the first couple of shots I struggled to get use to how light they were on the shoulder.

Edited May 13, 2022 by PeterHenry

[TIGHTCHOKE]

32" Trap guns are going to be de rigueur!

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

32" Trap guns are going to be de rigueur!

A lot already are! 

[Old farrier]

17 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Thats true - I found it was pretty vile with my AYA no2 and steel 32g 4's.  However, Musto make a fantastic thing that you put over your shoulder and the fabric locks up when the gun recoils. Using that, steel is no worse than lead recoil wise. I think you can even buy gilet's with built in pockets for them, so you don't have to mess around with the harness thingy.

Edit - this is the thing https://www.amazon.co.uk/Musto-d3o-recoil-reducer-shield/dp/B005YCZTFU

 

I'll also add that the layvale 30g '5' 2 2/1" earthwads have negligible recoil - the AYA digests the quite happily. Intfact, for the first couple of shots I struggled to get use to how light they were on the shoulder.

If you don’t mind me asking what weight is your aya no 2 

apreciate the thought of the shoulder pad and am considering it maybe have to have the stock altered to compensate for the extra thickness 

another aspect of course is the recoil through the gun and the possibility of the stock splitting 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

A lot already are! 

Oh yes, I accept that, but even more from now on.

[PeterHenry]

21 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

If you don’t mind me asking what weight is your aya no 2 

apreciate the thought of the shoulder pad and am considering it maybe have to have the stock altered to compensate for the extra thickness 

another aspect of course is the recoil through the gun and the possibility of the stock splitting 

 

I don't know off the top of my head - but I would say closer to 6 pounds than 7. They are probably the lightest guns I own. A pair with 26" barrels.

[Pushandpull]

Split stock ?  Surely not. I had an AyA No.2 3 inch which was not visibly more robust than standard and was a pleasure to shoot. Mind you it had to go when I wanted an unmoderated Sako 75 in 7 mm RM so perhaps I am not a good judge of recoil.

[Pushandpull]

The comment above was a bit facetious I suppose. Despite the "belted rimless magnum" image shooting a 7mm RM is much the same as a .30-06.

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Pushandpull said:

The comment above was a bit facetious I suppose. Despite the "belted rimless magnum" image shooting a 7mm RM is much the same as a .30-06.

I don’t find recoil a problem or I wouldn’t shoot a 416rigby 

however I’m talking about light English guns designed and built for the lighter slower game cartridges and how they will stand up to the newer steel offering 

 

[Smudger687]

On 12/05/2022 at 16:01, mellors said:

Which biodegradable wads are you using for your 20gauge?. 

Non available yet but there coming.!!!!. 

They say the 20 gauge will do 21 grams of steel plenty for pigeon and vermin. 

I've used those cartridges - they scored the chamber and forcing cones in my gun. That paper wad, in my opinion, is simply not fit for purpose. 

[Old farrier]

15 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

I've used those cartridges - they scored the chamber and forcing cones in my gun. That paper wad, in my opinion, is simply not fit for purpose. 

That’s not good to hear 

sorry you damaged your gun 

looks like the light at the end of the tunnel just got dimmer 

[Pushandpull]

OF, I was not really referring to recoil but to wood damage. Over the years I have seen some pretty hairy overloading of various guns with grim results to the metal (ring-bulged double 8 with steel) but not stock damage. Does this occur ?

[London Best]

6 hours ago, clangerman said:

game shootings biggest amount of support comes from all those grassroots boys struggling with cost

I would say that was total fantasy. 
Game shooting’s biggest amount of support comes from the all those who have sufficient finances to be able to afford to do it.

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Pushandpull said:

OF, I was not really referring to recoil but to wood damage. Over the years I have seen some pretty hairy overloading of various guns with grim results to the metal (ring-bulged double 8 with steel) but not stock damage. Does this occur ?

I’ve seen it happen a few times 

although more on modern ou guns 

[Smudger687]

I've said this in another thread but will repeat here. 

I spoke to a BASC representative at an evening event and asked them what prompted BASC to announce, apropo of nothing, that they wanted the entire industry to move away from lead. I was told that the primary pressure was that Europe takes most of our game meat, and that they don't want it containing lead.

When I asked why BASC wasn't content to simply let the market take care of it i.e. Europe doesn't want lead shot game, so the game shoots impose their own steel shot rules or sell the game elsewhere, they stated that many of the smaller commercial shoots would go out of business if left to their own devices.

In other words, BASC has prioritised the commercial driven shoots and their...more affluent clientele, and have shafted everyone else (again). 

All of the arguments that BASC have given regarding the toxicity and the environmental damage caused by lead (which may well be true), played little to no part in the decision to move away from lead, and are simply being used to retroactively justify their actions. 

@Conor O'Gorman- You know, Conor, BASC can't have it both ways. You can't publicly announce that lead is toxic, that steel is just as good, then oppose measures to ban all forms of lead ammunition. You've completely removed all grounds by which to argue against a legislative lead ban by doing so. 

[clangerman]

7 minutes ago, London Best said:

I would say that was total fantasy. 
Game shooting’s biggest amount of support comes from the all those who have sufficient finances to be able to afford to do it.

advise you ask fox hunting then if field sports survive on money or support lol

[Scully]

7 hours ago, clangerman said:

game shootings biggest amount of support comes from all those grassroots boys struggling with cost thanks to game shooting pushing this rubbish they will simply switch to cheaper forms such as air rifles and dump all their support for game shooting in return a fair exchange! 

Eh?  Where have you got that info’ from?

Game shooters don’t struggle with ‘cost’, and never have. Many things may end game shooting, but cost won’t be one of them. 

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Eh?  Where have you got that info’ from?

Game shooters don’t struggle with ‘cost’, and never have. Many things may end game shooting, but cost won’t be one of them. 

as I made no claim of a monetary cost to game shooting they can definitely afford it mate 

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Eh?  Where have you got that info’ from?

Game shooters don’t struggle with ‘cost’, and never have. Many things may end game shooting, but cost won’t be one of them. 

I think Clangerman means rough shooters rather than game shooters. The sort of people who go out to put food on the table

[Fellside]

I think sadly we are all fiddling while Rome burns. And it is not changes in metal types for shot manufacturing, legal or financial threats…..or indeed any of the common woes we all discuss endlessly, which will see the demise of shooting. 

I’m afraid the biggest single threat to all forms of field sports is its ageing participants and lack of youth interest. While there are of course exceptions, this powerful trend can not be denied. I do a lot of fishing too - and if you look at the average trout fishing comp’ on a local lake I sometimes fish, the team photos look like an outing from an old folks home, and there aren’t many teams left either. It’s the same in a lot of shooting syndicates too of course. 

I know that some PW contributors have made great efforts in helping youngsters to get started. Full marks! However, we need a seriously well coordinated effort from the org’s, country estates, RFDs, clay grounds and all, to really turn this situation around!!! What I generally find, is that there are plenty of willing youngsters if you offer them a chance, but they (or more often their parents) don’t have any knowledge or confidence in gaining access …so they don’t….and that’s a great shame.

[Dave at kelton]

On 11/05/2022 at 22:01, Vince Green said:

The economic impact will kill what is already an extremely fragile industry. Already hanging on by the thinnest profit magins imaginable

Why outdoor target shooting? range regulations already require de leading on a regular basis

What about muzzle loader? does a 200 year old rifle fired perhaps twenty times a year in some historical competition represent a threat to the environment????

EXemption for Muzzle loaders absolutely essencial

I have made exactly that point about muzzle loaders to Conor!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

It's just another way of stopping shooting!

[Old farrier]

35 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

It's just another way of stopping shooting!

Or getting the lead for batteries for electric cars 🤔

[Sweet11-87]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

I think sadly we are all fiddling while Rome burns. And it is not changes in metal types for shot manufacturing, legal or financial threats…..or indeed any of the common woes we all discuss endlessly, which will see the demise of shooting. 

I’m afraid the biggest single threat to all forms of field sports is its ageing participants and lack of youth interest. While there are of course exceptions, this powerful trend can not be denied. I do a lot of fishing too - and if you look at the average trout fishing comp’ on a local lake I sometimes fish, the team photos look like an outing from an old folks home, and there aren’t many teams left either. It’s the same in a lot of shooting syndicates too of course. 

I know that some PW contributors have made great efforts in helping youngsters to get started. Full marks! However, we need a seriously well coordinated effort from the org’s, country estates, RFDs, clay grounds and all, to really turn this situation around!!! What I generally find, is that there are plenty of willing youngsters if you offer them a chance, but they (or more often their parents) don’t have any knowledge or confidence in gaining access …so they don’t….and that’s a great shame.

i think youre right.... i do a fair bit of shooting from PSG to pigeon and honestly maybe 1 in 10 is under 50. i think in the next 20 years as folks pass on or just get too long in the tooth we will see a sharp decline in shooters

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Or getting the lead for batteries for electric cars 🤔

So electric cars are responsible for the death of shooting?