BASC position on lead ammunition restriction proposals

[silver fox 1]

25 minutes ago, Scully said:

I suppose it all depends on how long the HSE proposed should be the transitional period. Anyone know? 

Really? I know there’s a few issues to get get through, but there always is. I don’t see shooting as being on its knees. 

We have a six month consultation period which started in May and then it can take anything from 18 months to 5 years.

I don’t mind change I’ve tried steel shot and had some good results So that doesn’t bother me as it’s usable. What concerns me most is my rifles

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, silver fox 1 said:

We have a six month consultation period which started in May and then it can take anything from 18 months to 5 years.

I don’t mind change I’ve tried steel shot and had some good results So that doesn’t bother me as it’s usable. What concerns me most is my rifles

I no longer own a CF rifle, but would be loathe to part with my .22rf. I won’t be buying that Wraith if there’s no suitable ammo. 
Saying that, I won’t be running out of .22rf lead anytime soon. 

[silver fox 1]

23 minutes ago, Scully said:

I no longer own a CF rifle, but would be loathe to part with my .22rf. I won’t be buying that Wraith if there’s no suitable ammo. 
Saying that, I won’t be running out of .22rf lead anytime soon. 

I’m exactly the same there is no alternative for the 22rf at the moment.

I’ve tried The lead. Alternative in my 22wmr and it’s not usable fingers crossed they bring something else out, 

hopefully cf Will be okay as if you load your own you can tweak them and hopefully make them shoot

[8 shot]

I'm down to two confirmed days on a peg this season and none of the shoots i beat on have a firm date for birds, getting close to the wire now. I would hazard a guess that in a 25 mile radius from home there is one very large shoot going ahead as they rear there own  and just 2 DIY shoots. I usually on average do 30 to 35 days beating, now 11 if the shoots get there ordered birds quite a drop for me

[landowner]

This move is unjustified, but regardless of BASC's position it is happening.

[Sweet11-87]

On 06/07/2022 at 20:13, silver fox 1 said:

Yes you’re right I didn’t make myself clear, what I meant was why propose the five year transition period and then decide to fight the lead ban, surely it would’ve been better just to fight the lead ban, I don’t think they’re making it easy for themselves or us

BASC are simply picking their battles and trying to box clever.  shooting is under presure from all sides and they can just stone wall every fight. lead has been on its way out for decades.  shooting is probably one of the last places its in common  widespread use,industry, paint, all had to change with more upheaval. angling is under pressure now too. fighiting the  ban outright will result in a loss and will cost in resources and funding they probably cant afford given everyone seems in a hurry to blame BASC and cancel the membership. lead is getting banned simple as that. always was gona happen, the battle they fight now is to get exemptions and delays until alternatives are effective and widley avalible. the 5 year transition was to show they can negotiate and shooting can adapt and adopt.  

but folks are convinced it seems that its all an inside job to kill shooting. people quickly forget that they got the general licence issue resolved fairly quick from a legal and legislation pov or that theyve turned up to challenge wild justice at every turn and won most of them.  not exactly fitting the narative that theyre looking to end shooting from within

[Gas seal]

Hi it was the Secretary of State who called the HSE for the review on firearms lead ammunition last year. Lead ammunition could be prohibited by 2024 with a 18 month transition period. Lead is not used by wildfowlers or fishermen any longer. The HSE have to protect human health and protect the environment. The shooting organisations are asking for 5 years (good luck to them) .if lead ammunition isn’t a problem in the countryside why aren’t the shooting community asking  for lead to be used again for fishing and wildfowl shooting. When lead was prohibited for shooting wildfowl we got on without it. Now it’s like the end of the world.

[captainhastings]

2 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

BASC are simply picking their battles and trying to box clever.  shooting is under presure from all sides and they can just stone wall every fight. lead has been on its way out for decades.  shooting is probably one of the last places its in common  widespread use,industry, paint, all had to change with more upheaval. angling is under pressure now too. fighiting the  ban outright will result in a loss and will cost in resources and funding they probably cant afford given everyone seems in a hurry to blame BASC and cancel the membership. lead is getting banned simple as that. always was gona happen, the battle they fight now is to get exemptions and delays until alternatives are effective and widley avalible. the 5 year transition was to show they can negotiate and shooting can adapt and adopt.  

but folks are convinced it seems that its all an inside job to kill shooting. people quickly forget that they got the general licence issue resolved fairly quick from a legal and legislation pov or that theyve turned up to challenge wild justice at every turn and won most of them.  not exactly fitting the narative that theyre looking to end shooting from within

Some big body with members needs to go on the offensive and turn things around. Start to make strikes and recover lost ground. Wouldn't it be nice to read well now you can go and shoot a pigeon for the pot or just because you fancy a bit of fun for half an hour. With out jumping through ludicrous rules and regulations which is all complete and utter twaddle to put it politely 

[Scully]

44 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi it was the Secretary of State who called the HSE for the review on firearms lead ammunition last year. Lead ammunition could be prohibited by 2024 with a 18 month transition period. Lead is not used by wildfowlers or fishermen any longer. The HSE have to protect human health and protect the environment. The shooting organisations are asking for 5 years (good luck to them) .if lead ammunition isn’t a problem in the countryside why aren’t the shooting community asking  for lead to be used again for fishing and wildfowl shooting. When lead was prohibited for shooting wildfowl we got on without it. Now it’s like the end of the world.

The thing is, it’s either toxic or it isn’t. It’s either damaging to the environment or it’s not. There should be no exemptions for any discipline. 
If there are exemptions there will be a lot of quarry shot with trap loads. 

[Windswept]

25 minutes ago, Scully said:

The thing is, it’s either toxic or it isn’t. 

Completely disagree. Most things are toxic if you exceed a certain amount, salt for example is essential but harmful over a certain amount and actually toxic (deadly) over another. Something like arsenic is considered toxic but isn't harmful in small amounts etc, etc. So it's not hard to see lead could be toxic in certain amounts and not others. Eg I might be more thoughtful if I ate game stewed in an acid sauce every day but not bothered if I ate game from time to time roasted.

I'm also not an advocate for banning something just because someone else may break the law. What a boring world that would be.

As for BASC, they are used to lobbying, something where facts play little part in but one can hope they will stop the outright ban that would happen without them and other orgs.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Windswept

[wymberley]

13 minutes ago, Windswept said:

Completely disagree. Most things are toxic if you exceed a certain amount, salt for example is essential but harmful over a certain amount and actually toxic (deadly) over another. Something like arsenic is considered toxic but isn't harmful in small amounts etc, etc. So it's not hard to see lead could be toxic in certain amounts and not others. Eg I might be more thoughtful if I ate game stewed in an acid sauce every day but not bothered if I ate game from time to time roasted.

I'm also not an advocate for banning something just because someone else may break the law. What a boring world that would be.

As for BASC, they are used to lobbying, something where facts play little part in but one can hope they will stop the outright ban that would happen without them and other orgs.

Good post although I have to ask because I can't get my head around it - probably down to me - but is there a 'not' missing in the second paragraph?

[Scully]

34 minutes ago, Windswept said:

Completely disagree. Most things are toxic if you exceed a certain amount, salt for example is essential but harmful over a certain amount and actually toxic (deadly) over another. Something like arsenic is considered toxic but isn't harmful in small amounts etc, etc. So it's not hard to see lead could be toxic in certain amounts and not others. Eg I might be more thoughtful if I ate game stewed in an acid sauce every day but not bothered if I ate game from time to time roasted.

I'm also not an advocate for banning something just because someone else may break the law. What a boring world that would be.

As for BASC, they are used to lobbying, something where facts play little part in but one can hope they will stop the outright ban that would happen without them and other orgs.

I’m playing devils advocate. I totally agree; as I’ve pointed out on here many a time, no one has ever died ( or even been made ill as far as I’m aware ) from eating lead shot game as part of a normal healthy diet. It isn’t even illegal to feed your kids lead shot game, nor will it be even if the ban goes ahead. It is the shooting of it which will be illegal. 
Saying all that, it is it’s presence in game meat ( along with the claimed threat to the environment ) which is the driving instigator behind this proposed legislation. 
I’m not an advocate for banning something simply because of those who may break the law, but that is how much of firearms legislation came about, and still does. 
If the banning of lead shot is applied equally due to its impact on the environment then it follows that it too MUST apply to trap shooters also. It simply has to. 

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, captainhastings said:

Wouldn't it be nice to read well now you can go and shoot a pigeon for the pot. With out jumping through ludicrous rules and regulations which is all complete and utter twaddle to put it politely 

This. 110%. I was having a Pimm's at my playmate's this late afternoon. As I said just two hours ago. I can fetch a gun and shoot your squirrels. I can't shoot your woodpigeons as there's no crops at risk, no human health issue and no fouling issue.

[Gas seal]

Woodpigeon can’t be killed for health and safety reasons. I don’t know of any wildflowers that have asked for lead shot to be used again for wildfowl.   If lead ammunition doesn’t get (banned ) it would mean it would be safe for shooting wildfowl and over wetlands and SSSIs . But would wildflowers use it. Would any Fowler on this forum use it. As for no exemptions a lot of wildflowers said this 20 years ago.

[8 shot]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

 I can't shoot your woodpigeons as there's no crops at risk, no human health issue and no fouling issue.

Why not ?

[Sweet11-87]

4 hours ago, captainhastings said:

. Wouldn't it be nice to read well now you can go and shoot a pigeon for the pot or just because you fancy a bit of fun for half an hour. With out jumping through ludicrous rules and regulations which is all complete and utter twaddle to put it politely 

in theory i agree but in reality and practice are the hoops that huge of an obsticle?  you rock up to the farm you have permission to shoot over and you shoot woodpigeons, you walk the birds off when youre setting up or you can fire a shot into the air if you really wana cover yourself and thats its youve taken steps to use non lethal methods to deter the birds from feeding, those youve shot are birds that have returned.  

as for having a few pimms round your play mates then deciding it would be a laugh to get the guns out well then yeah you probably cant do that and thats probably for the best.

[Gas seal]

Shooting woodpigeon or any other birds for fun or a laugh is not what shooting people want to hear about, but Wild Justice and a lot of people like to quote. If lead shot hasn’t been used by a lot of shooters over a lot of the country for more than 20 years because of the environment and wildlife it’s going to be difficult to convince the HSE  that it’s safe for the rest of the country to use. It’s safe or it isn’t safe. 

[8 shot]

11 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

If lead shot hasn’t been used by a lot of shooters over a lot of the country for more than 20 years because of the environment and wildlife it’s going to be difficult to convince the HSE  that it’s safe for the rest of the country to use. It’s safe or it isn’t safe.

Well what a collosal waste of money all this is then, no one has ever been proven to have died from eating game shot with lead..... IT IS SAFE ! 

Edited July 10, 2022 by 8 shot

[McSpredder]

Fighting against a ban might be futile, but that is not a reason to roll over and endorse every word of the HSE dossier.   You can point out an error without starting a fight.   Anybody who spots a serious error, or finds pseudo-scientific claptrap being passed off as genuine research, should draw attention to it by responding to the consultation.  

Will campaigners be delighted for you to continue shooting, just as long as you use don't ue lead?   I suspect many may have spent years attacking every aspect of shooting, and will continue to do so regardless of what ammunition is used.  

In the words of a former President of the Royal Society, good science involves “taking account of all evidence and not cherry picking data”.   Any competent scientist who has studied the publications from Green & Pain, which are the source material for most of the HSE dossier, must be aware that they have:

• suppressed all data collected by the two UK Government surveillance schemes that monitor actual cases of lead exposure among children.;
• artificially inflated risks to human health by asserting that 30-month old toddler will eat the more meat in a single meal that the average UK resident consumes in a whole day;
• excluded any mention of the meal size information available from NHS and other professional nutritionists, all of which would suggest that ornithologists are wrong factor of four;
• suppressed data published by the Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition (SACN), concocted their own method for calculating theoretical meat consumption by young children; but never reported any attempt to verify their results (which are very different from those of the SACN professionals).

I have only referred here to the human health considerations, but other parts of the HSE document rely heavily of material from the same authors (publications by Green and/or Pain are cited 105 times within the dossier and its appendices).    I shall not comment on the quality of science in those sections.

Exclusion of publically funded evidence from the HSE dossier makes a mockery of any claims of “joined-up government”.   Deliberate exclusion of relevant data would be cheating the taxpayer, so perhaps a letter to your local MP might be in order.   (You never know, some of them could be quite anxious to please their constituents at the moment, if they think an early election is on the cards).

[enfieldspares]

2 hours ago, 8 shot said:

Why not ?

GL 42 see below:

https://www.nfuonline.com/updates-and-information/bird-control-licences-advice-for-members/

[8 shot]

6 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

GL 42 see below:

https://www.nfuonline.com/updates-and-information/bird-control-licences-advice-for-members/

Exactly, crops are under threat from the day they’re drilled to the day they’re harvested, one or two crops around us have gone flat, especially rape and shooter have been on them for a week or two now. Tinder dry crops don’t allow rope bangers so crack on 

[Gas seal]

If the HSE declares lead ammunition is safe to use can l ask the BASC,who started the topic, would it change the position for  wild Fowler’s using lead shot. I don’t think any Fowler in U.K. or USA would ever use lead shot again. Commercial shoots and supermarkets are business and treated as such by the HSE. Business looks after themselves or they go out of business. Farm type shoots, target shooting and wild Fowling  are recreational totally different from commercial shooting .more to do with the environment. The legalities of shooting woodpigeon or not should be on the GL channel . This is the lead shot channel with some very interesting replies. 

[udderlyoffroad]

16 hours ago, captainhastings said:

Some big body with members needs to go on the offensive and turn things around. Start to make strikes and recover lost ground. Wouldn't it be nice to read well now you can go and shoot a pigeon for the pot or just because you fancy a bit of fun for half an hour. With out jumping through ludicrous rules and regulations which is all complete and utter twaddle to put it politely 

What on earth?

Read GL, see you meet the conditions, crack on.  Keep some notes/shooting diary if it makes you feel better, in the unlikely event you're ever questioned.  I don't bother.

The GLs have existed in one form or another since the early 80s, just because you were previously unaware of them, doesn't mean you shouldn't have been following them.

[Sweet11-87]

9 hours ago, Gas seal said:

If the HSE declares lead ammunition is safe to use can l ask the BASC,who started the topic, would it change the position for  wild Fowler’s using lead shot. I don’t think any Fowler in U.K. or USA would ever use lead shot again. Commercial shoots and supermarkets are business and treated as such by the HSE. Business looks after themselves or they go out of business. Farm type shoots, target shooting and wild Fowling  are recreational totally different from commercial shooting .more to do with the environment. The legalities of shooting woodpigeon or not should be on the GL channel . This is the lead shot channel with some very interesting replies. 

wildfowlers switched to non toxic shot a long time ago for completly diffrent reasons reasons that actualy have fact and figures behind them. it was found leaving lead shot at the bottom of wetland or courses of water was being picked up by dabbling ducks and was getting ground up in the gizzard and was infact causing allot of bird to die from lead poisoning as well as increasing the spread of diseases as the ducks may not have directly died from the lead but had very compromised health and immune systems.

as has been stated many times now, so far theirs no recorded adverse effect on humans form eating shot game on the regular

 

[Gas seal]

Hi yes that’s why we stopped using lead pellets. Shoot a duck, hit with say half a dozen pellets, the other three hundred or so spent pellets fall to earth and kill more ducks. As you rightly say facts and figures behind them, but even now shooters ask were are all the thousands of dead wildfowl. The HSE are looking into lead in the environment and lead for human health. What ever the outcome it won’t be the end of shooting. Ammunition may change but shooting will carry on.

 

 

 

 

ammunition and guns may change