AYA 25" XXV

[THEINVISIBLESCARECROW]

I'm going to try an AYA 25" XXV as a Pigeon gun. I'm more used to 28/30" O/U's. I know the answers will include try for yourself & find out but asking here is a short cut to avoiding hassle & thankyou for that. Being short is it more likely to suffer from muzzle flip ? Will it swing faster compared  to my O/U's that I might not realise at first without practice / experience with the gun ? Is it best to use 28/29g cartridges or will 30g be OK considering also possible muzzle flip. I've used up my stock of 32g 6's. My 32g 5's with my O/U is going to be my Corvid combination. I have 28g 6's ready for my XXV but about 300 Clear Pigeon 30g left. Best to use them in the O/U or try & see in the XXV. I don't fancy a sore shoulder nor the stock kicking into my face while I'm becoming one with the gun.

[ditchman]

28g x 7's...........some 30 grammes are very smooth to fire...but generally leave them for a heavier o/u

[THEINVISIBLESCARECROW]

7 minutes ago, ditchman said:

28g x 7's...........some 30 grammes are very smooth to fire...but generally leave them for a heavier o/u

I've tried 32g 7's without success years ago in a O/U. Allways used 6's but read a lot of posts about 7's. I understand the "science" behind this but wondering are 7's more common to use in 28g than 32g due to less pellets in 28g than 32g. I don't want to overthink rather just get on with it but with riseing costs mistakes are too expensive now.

[wymberley]

5 minutes ago, THEINVISIBLESCARECROW said:

I'm going to try an AYA 25" XXV as a Pigeon gun. I'm more used to 28/30" O/U's. I know the answers will include try for yourself & find out but asking here is a short cut to avoiding hassle & thankyou for that. Being short is it more likely to suffer from muzzle flip ? Will it swing faster compared  to my O/U's that I might not realise at first without practice / experience with the gun ? Is it best to use 28/29g cartridges or will 30g be OK considering also possible muzzle flip. I've used up my stock of 32g 6's. My 32g 5's with my O/U is going to be my Corvid combination. I have 28g 6's ready for my XXV but about 300 Clear Pigeon 30g left. Best to use them in the O/U or try & see in the XXV. I don't fancy a sore shoulder nor the stock kicking into my face while I'm becoming one with the gun.

Shot these since '77 until I finally got my hands on a W&S 702 version of the Churchill original. There's a good chance that you'll find yourself missing in front until you get used to it - they're very quick. Ditchman has it - you need to keep the pellet count up but the load weight sensible - 6&1/2s are good (with some choke) if you can find some though.

However, they're not the be all and end all.

After some 40 odd years I obviously don't say this lightly. I tripped over an OU which apart from the barrel configuration plus they were 26" everything else was the same and even the weight matched the AyA XXV SL. I then got poorly so things had to change and I found a 20 bore double trigger OU and also a single which I use dependent upon how much pain I'm in from my wrist/hand. Things have got better though and to my delight the RFD had failed to sell the OU in question so I got it back. Pain permitting, the little Chapuis OU is my go to gun which I have to say I prefer to the AyAs that I've had and also the W&S - it is after all an OU version of them - well plus an inch.

 

[ditchman]

22 minutes ago, THEINVISIBLESCARECROW said:

I've tried 32g 7's without success years ago in a O/U. Allways used 6's but read a lot of posts about 7's. I understand the "science" behind this but wondering are 7's more common to use in 28g than 32g due to less pellets in 28g than 32g. I don't want to overthink rather just get on with it but with riseing costs mistakes are too expensive now.

Evans built their guns around 28g 7's 25" and 26"...........if you go down to the "other" little gunroom in the basement you will see not only Evans shotguns but alot of AYA's..

[JohnfromUK]

41 minutes ago, THEINVISIBLESCARECROW said:

Being short is it more likely to suffer from muzzle flip ? Will it swing faster compared  to my O/U's

I find that light short barrelled guns do tend to 'flip' up, but some people say they don't ever notice it - so maybe it depends on 'hold', fit or something.  Yes, it starts swinging really fast .......... and stops really fast as well, so until you are used to it, it is easy to swing too fast and shoot in front ......... or stop the gun and shoot behind! 

You may find it instructional to watch a video and/or read a bit about the "Churchill" method - as these short light guns were originally designed to be shot in a slightly specialist style - as originally taught by Robert Churchill.  A short barrelled very fast gun was key to Churchill's method - but to some extent it probvably also works the other way round in that Churchill's method will bring out the best in a short barrelled light gun.

[ditchman]

dont shoot it "gun up".....do....up-through-bang......dont hold it too tight either

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, ditchman said:

dont shoot it "gun up".....do....up-through-bang......dont hold it too tight either

I think (I'm rusty as I don't shoot this way myself) that Churchill used to tuck the heel of the stock under his arm pre-mounting and mount and shoot all in one quick almost 'flick' movement - almost flicking through rather than a long 'follow the smoke trail type' swing.

[Stonepark]

26 minutes ago, THEINVISIBLESCARECROW said:

I've tried 32g 7's without success years ago in a O/U. Allways used 6's but read a lot of posts about 7's. I understand the "science" behind this but wondering are 7's more common to use in 28g than 32g due to less pellets in 28g than 32g. I don't want to overthink rather just get on with it but with riseing costs mistakes are too expensive now.

If you are shooting within 40 yards, 28g no7 is exactly what those guns were designed to shoot.

Gamebore White Gold 7.5 (UK no7) are my go to for pigeon and crows.

Trigger pull is done as gun hits shoulder, you mount and shoot in one movement for best results... Basically snap shooting. Modern clay shooting with prehmounting is the complete opposite in technique.

[wymberley]

18 minutes ago, THEINVISIBLESCARECROW said:

I've tried 32g 7's without success years ago in a O/U. Allways used 6's but read a lot of posts about 7's. I understand the "science" behind this but wondering are 7's more common to use in 28g than 32g due to less pellets in 28g than 32g. I don't want to overthink rather just get on with it but with riseing costs mistakes are too expensive now.

This all depends on how many pellet strikes that you think you need - not on average but with every shot. Increasing pellet pattern density can easily get to a point of a diminishing return. For all of the more usual pigeon decoying ranges, 7s are good in terms of energy. For patterns, you could do worse than read the BASC Pattern Test - something to the effect that, "we should do it and do it better". Here comes the 'diminishing return' bit. A 5 to 6 pellet strike can be more beneficial to overall performance than 6 to7 as is detailed. The vulnerable area  of a pigeon has long been given as 16 sq ins. You just need to decide what is your effective central area within the proverbial 30" circle. 

[JohnfromUK]

There are lots about the Churchill method, this being just one, but does show Churchill himself

http://exclusive.multibriefs.com/content/the-churchill-method-can-dramatically-improve-your-shotgun-results/recreation-leisure

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, I had a similar style in a Army a Navy best boxlock, Eley impact 6s , if I ever shoot with my O/U now it's 7.5s 28g , with extra choke, there's a book by Major Ruffer showing a good way to shoot with a XXV 

Edited September 3, 2022 by oldypigeonpopper

[THEINVISIBLESCARECROW]

Interesting replies so far, thanks to all. Around the time of purchase I did read up about the Churchill method. Looks like the best option at the moment is continue with my O/U while decoying & in my current comfort zone useing up my 30g cart' stock then when it's time to go to shooting flightlines between the many small fields just swing it about at the sky rockets to get the feel of it even practice dry runs without trigger action at out of range missiles. I'm glad I bought it after reading about the Churchill method. I'm guilty of staying still then quick mount but being a small rib on my O/U I tend to spend to much time mentally double checking aim / swing / flight path / line of sight down the rib. It fits me well but after a few shoulder mounts in the house I realised the little XXV is easier to get on aim for want of a better description.

[ditchman]

if you are shooting right and the gun fits you......you shouldnt even see the barrels or the foresight......just see the bird and think it thro......ive always shot short barrelled sxs's.....they are like using a sykes dagger as oppposed to a machete o/u....if you get my drift lol

[London Best]

1 hour ago, ditchman said:

if you are shooting right and the gun fits you......you shouldnt even see the barrels or the foresight......just see the bird and think it thro......ive always shot short barrelled sxs's.....they are like using a sykes dagger as oppposed to a machete o/u....if you get my drift lol

This, this and this again.

Anybody “checking aim, flight path or line of sight down the rib” is a long way from learning to shoot a shotgun.

If you have to check aim or line of sight down the rib after throwing the gun to your shoulder then the gun does not fit you.  You do not aim a shotgun. It must shoot where you look once mounted.

Edited September 3, 2022 by London Best

[THEINVISIBLESCARECROW]

15 minutes ago, ditchman said:

if you are shooting right and the gun fits you......you shouldnt even see the barrels or the foresight......just see the bird and think it thro......ive always shot short barrelled sxs's.....they are like using a sykes dagger as oppposed to a machete o/u....if you get my drift lol

I think you have hit the nail on the head !!! I've had plenty of shotguns over the years & allways a poor shot, I then had an old battered Rizzini 28" & couldn't miss. I thought I'll get a new 30" for Clay's but by then costs started to rise, I'm talking back when cartridges went from £80 upto over £100 & clay fees accordingly. I gave up Clay's not useing the new Rizzini, went for my FaC & sold up my shotgun collection except for my new Rizzini & concentrated on rifle shooting with the odd day pigeon shooting missing badly & put it down to being rusty. A few years ago I got new land & went pigeon shooting more often as before,  disappointed with the Rizzini I sold it & got a Bettosli, bags slightly improved but decided to get a SxS shorty for the hide. Now after a few cuppas reading these replies & having a good think I've come to the conclusion the O/U isn't for me, mounting, aiming & trigger use is not on auto pilot at all far from it. Thinking back the old Rizzini was mount & bang, with the XXV I look along but above the rib & it's a good line of sight definately better than the Bettasoli. My kit is ready for tomorrow, I'm going to try the Churchill method with the Bettasoli. My thoughts are it will be for sale soon with cartridges. Glad I asked, my view point was blinkered !

[THEINVISIBLESCARECROW]

25 minutes ago, London Best said:

This, this and this again.

Anybody “checking aim, flight path or line of sight down the rib” is a long way from learning to shoot a shotgun.

I you have to check aim or line of sight down the rib after throwing the gun to your shoulder then the gun does not fit you.  You do not aim a shotgun. It must shoot where you look once mounted.

Another reply that's hit the nail on the head. I started shooting a 22lr shotgun on a relatives chicken farm in the 60's, I owned & shot shotguns for the past 35 years, hands up, guilty as charged, slipped into bad habits with a blinkered view, a good slap to regain senses !!

[Gunman]

Best advice I have heard from an old school shooting instructor  > Dont think  shoot !!! <

[PeterHenry]

I've got pair of AYA no.2's with 26" barrels. It's taken me a while to get use to them.

Being light, they are wildly unstable if you shoot them the 'wrong' way. Grab the barrels beyond the forend, shoot with a near straight arm and torque your whole upper body to give conscious swing, but unconscious lead (to paraphrase Robert Churchill)

 

Edit - you won't have barrel flip if you hold the barrels beyond the forend with a stright'ish arm. Yes it will 'start fast and stop fast' but if the swing comes from you moving your torso and arms together, it shouldn't be a problem. Churchill had the theory that there should be no conscious lead - his analogy was it should be like playing cricket.

Edited September 4, 2022 by PeterHenry

[THEINVISIBLESCARECROW]

Last night I practised mounting the XXV, it come to the shoulder with perfect line of sight without any adjustment everytime. This afternoon I went out with the O/U, definately harder work ! I kept in mind the Churchill method. It would seem the O/U isn't a good fit compared. Next outing will be with the XXV. When I get back I'll decide the fate of the O/U. Persevere or sell.

[Dave at kelton]

I shot one of these for many years. They are very fast and I found that recall and muzzle flip were the main issues. They do take some getting used but I went the other way to an O/U. As already said anything above 28gm loads is going to be uncomfortable. For a lot of clay shooting I would move down to 21 or 24 gm loads. I had problems with bulging chokes as they had been cut too steep for some reason. Had them taken out and eventually moved it on. Nice gun if you like short barrels. I would not now go shorter than 27” and prefer 28-30 for game guns.

[London Best]

9 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

 

Being light, they are wildly unstable if you shoot them the 'wrong' way. Grab the barrels beyond the forend, shoot with a near straight arm 

 

Edit - you won't have barrel flip if you hold the barrels beyond the forend with a stright'ish arm. 

It always amazes me the number of people who try to shoot a SxS by holding the fore-end. That is not what it is there for. The fore-end on a SxS is there to hold the gun together. As said above, ‘wildly unstable if held the wrong way’.

[Old farrier]

On 03/09/2022 at 12:43, THEINVISIBLESCARECROW said:

I'm going to try an AYA 25" XXV as a Pigeon gun. I'm more used to 28/30" O/U's. I know the answers will include try for yourself & find out but asking here is a short cut to avoiding hassle & thankyou for that. Being short is it more likely to suffer from muzzle flip ? Will it swing faster compared  to my O/U's that I might not realise at first without practice / experience with the gun ? Is it best to use 28/29g cartridges or will 30g be OK considering also possible muzzle flip. I've used up my stock of 32g 6's. My 32g 5's with my O/U is going to be my Corvid combination. I have 28g 6's ready for my XXV but about 300 Clear Pigeon 30g left. Best to use them in the O/U or try & see in the XXV. I don't fancy a sore shoulder nor the stock kicking into my face while I'm becoming one with the gun.

I shot a pair of 25s for a good many years 

there a different beast to your ou 

I can’t emphasise enough how important fit is the stock configuration is different along with the double trigger 

go to a good gun fitted and have it fitted it’ll make it a far more enjoyable experience 

as for cartridges I shot predominantly Eley impax 6 or 7 1oz loads 

They will bash you about if they don’t fit although a absolute pleasure to shoot when they do looking back through the diary I recall shooting just over 1000 cartridges through the pair on one day with no ill effects a memory moment 

enjoy your new gun 

of 

 

[rimfire4969]

I used it my XXV mainly as a walked up gun and great for Woodcock, I shot number 6's 28 gram. I was made an offer for it that I could not refuse on a shoot day where I was a guest. I will buy another one day.

[Hicky]

I had an AYA version, single trigger.

Suffered from random double discharge no matter what I did cleaning wise. A touch too short in the stock, I had some amazing days with it but the reliability issue put me off in the end.