Gun fitting advice.

[Daveo26]

Good people of PW,

I’ve been shooting shotguns on and off for 28years, I’m 40 years old now.

I’ve never had a proper lesson or even been checked for gun fit really.

I started regularly clay shooting in my 20s and bought a well used 682 supersport off my uncle.

and shot every Sunday for years at small clay shoots.

Occasionally  someone would offer some advice and I’ve had a few more experienced people checked my gun fit always been told it’s not bad or looks ok.

Then I tried a Browning 325 and hit more with and I’ve stuck with browning or Miroku since.

I’ve had a few guns over the years, I always felt like I shot the best with an Mk38, then I sold it because I’m an idiot.

Guns always feel short in the stock as standard so I make them 15” lop or just over and they generally feel right at that, I’m 6’1” so that seems logical?

I’ve never changed anything else.

Now, I generally shoot high 30s in to the low 40s out of 50 and I’m happy with that.

I feel like I can pick a gun up and know if I could shoot it or not.

And I can bend myself round most guns to be able to shoot with them.

At this point in my life, bearing in mind I’m not a competitive shooter would I be beneficial to have lessons at a clay ground 

or would I shoot less changing what I’m doing, like spoil what little I know?

Part of me thinks don’t bother Im happy shooting what I’m shooting but part of me wonders what I’m getting wrong being basically self taught?

Id be very interested to hear your opinions and experiences on this subject.

I watch some shooting stuff on YouTube and it seems if it’s not custom made for you, you’ll never hit anything with it?

cheers Dave.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Daveo26

[enfieldspares]

If you are going to have a gunfitting then have it done right. Not Jack, Ted, Harry in his gunshop, or the nonsense you see on You Tube with a fat bloke harping on about three fingers and "the crook of the arm" but done right. Or others unscrewing buttpads and inserting coins! You're forty now so other than spreading around the waist pretty much how you'll be for the next twenty-five years. So forty is a good time to be properly fitted.

Make it a day out, take a train, take the family, let them go shopping in London whilst you visit Holland's at Northwood.

They fit for both side by side and over and under and have try guns for each. One type of gun = one session. They'll do the job right starting with a pattern plate, then simple going away birds and onto high incomers and, if you ask, any "bogey" bird that you have. Everyone has a "bogey" bird. Mine are ten yard driven birds.

They'll give you all the measurements on a piece of paper for single and double trigger side by side and single trigger over under according to that session and a coffee before and after too. Try to arrive early...even an hour early...to allow any "set" you muscles have taken from driving down of being sat on a train to "unset". It's a day well spent and worth the money. 

Last just like an eye test there's no obligation at all to have any work done at Holland's. None at all.

Oh and that "custom made" You Tube nonsense? If you are lucky you'll fit a modern gun right off the peg, or just some slight tweaking, especially those made form the 2000s onwards. You may just well be that Mr Average Man that today's post 2000 guns are made to fit off the peg! But if you're shaped like Mr Blobby or wide shouldered like an American footballer or shaped like a giraffe with neck to match then maybe not so!

Edited October 31, 2022 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

2 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

If you are going to have a gunfitting then have it done right. Not Jack, Ted, Harry in his gunshop, or the nonsense you see on You Tube with a fat bloke harping on about three fingers and "the crook of the arm" but done right. Or others unscrewing buttpads and inserting coins! You're forty now so other than spreading around the waist pretty much how you'll be for the next twenty-five years. So forty is a good time to be properly fitted.

Make it a day out, take a train, take the family, let them go shopping in London whilst you visit Holland's at Northwood.

They fit for both side by side and over and under and have try guns for each. One type of gun = one session. They'll do the job right starting with a pattern plate, then simple going away birds and onto high incomers and, if you ask, any "bogey" bird that you have. Everyone has a "bogey" bird. Mine are ten yard driven birds.

They'll give you all the measurements on a piece of paper for single and double trigger side by side and single trigger over under according to that session and a coffee before and after too. Try to arrive early...even an hour early...to allow any "set" you muscles have taken from driving down of being sat on a train to "unset". It's a day well spent and worth the money. 

Last just like an eye test there's no obligation at all to have any work done at Holland's. None at all.

I did exactly that.

It gives you a lot of confidence.

Northwood has the reputation of having the best gunfitters in the World.

[Scully]

It’s always worth time and money spent on a GOOD coach in my opinion. 

[enfieldspares]

6 minutes ago, London Best said:

I did exactly that.

It gives you a lot of confidence.

Northwood has the reputation of having the best gunfitters in the World.

Yes. Ken Davies did my first fitting at Northwood. At that time they didn't keep a record on their computers just gave you then paper. So when I went again in about 2015 or so I told them when I arrived although I'd had a fitting I'd not show it to them but they could guesstimate it and set the try gun up to what they thought it'd be. This time it was Nathan Dooley. He was within 1/8" or under correct to Ken Davies's old measurements. Slightly different, yes, on some as after sixty your physique changes.

Edited October 31, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Daveo26]

Very interesting thank you all.

[HantsRob]

3 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

Oh and that "custom made" You Tube nonsense? 

Ricardo stocks? Do you think thats Fools gold?

I'm genuinely curious to your take, I don't know enough on the subject and knowledge is always good!

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, HantsRob said:

Ricardo stocks? Do you think thats Fools gold?

I'm genuinely curious to your take, I don't know enough on the subject and knowledge is always good!

The same silly daft nonsense, at one point, about distance between crook of the elbow and the "pad" on the trigger finger!

There's well explained reasons why that's indeed fool's gold (not that I can remember them) but it's something to do with width of the body across the shoulders, length of your neck, height or length of your face and etc., etc..

Elsewise the length of the stock for a short thin man with a short face and long arms and a short neck would be the same as a tall very broad chested man with the same length arms a long "horse face" and a giraffe neck.

There used to be in Shooting Times a cut out gun fit diagram that you could cut out, fill in, send off to importer A or importer B to have them supply you a new gun from their stock "made to measure". It too had that instruction to measure the distance between crook of elbow and "pad" on the trigger finger.

Gun fit indeed for two identical people in height, width across the shoulders, length of arm, neck, face, but one a woman and the other a man will also be different. There will usually be more cast at the toe on the woman's gun to clear the breast. Indeed an old overweight mad with "man boobs" will also require such whereas a man of the same weight but slim won't.

Edited October 31, 2022 by enfieldspares

[HantsRob]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. 

It is funny what becomes gospel that either technology or change of opinion can do. I do wonder in 20 years time if people will think it was barbaric to shoot with lead, not understanding the nuances. Or, if steel proves to be dangerous and another change happens.

I'm keen to do a proper gun fit in a few years if I can find my "forever gun"

[ehb102]

I found a try gun session really valuable. I had one from Julian at Atkin, Grant and Lang. Julian had spotted that my stock was slightly too long for me. He set the gun up, I shot with it, he made some adjustments, the gunsmith changed the gun to fit, shooting got a lot easier. I think I'd been shooting for six years at the time. It was quite a subtle spot, which shows what a good eye some coaches have, because I was hitting things. So yes to try gun sessions. 

[retromlc]

I had lessons, I went from 65% average to 80% same gun which fitted me perfectly but just altering a few things, I would definitely recommend a set of weekly lessons, perhaps 6, my scores have slipped lately so I might go for a refresher as my old poor habits are quite ingrained and hard to not "reset" back to. Incidentally regarding fit, I badly broke my collarbone so the mount position changed and I decided to have a comb adjuster fitted, made the alterations and the gun is back to where I want it 

Edited November 2, 2022 by retromlc

[wymberley]

There's a lot to be said for being happy with your lot - it's called enjoyment. One question worth asking yourself is how long after forking out all that dosh will it be before you revert to your old ways (in which by now you're possibly set) which gun fit may well not cure. "Regular" is one thing, but you'd then really need 'frequent' to maintain your improved performance. It may win you prizes when you hit the vast majority of targets, but when it becomes routine and you stop allowing yourself a little smile when you hit a screamer, then, the enjoyment has gone.

[Daveo26]

On 02/11/2022 at 13:29, wymberley said:

There's a lot to be said for being happy with your lot - it's called enjoyment. One question worth asking yourself is how long after forking out all that dosh will it be before you revert to your old ways (in which by now you're possibly set) which gun fit may well not cure. "Regular" is one thing, but you'd then really need 'frequent' to maintain your improved performance. It may win you prizes when you hit the vast majority of targets, but when it becomes routine and you stop allowing yourself a little smile when you hit a screamer, then, the enjoyment has gone.

You’ve hit the nail on the head, those are my fears.

id think I’d prefer to spend money just shooting not trying to learn the perfect technique.

maybe it’s something I’ll revisit one day.

thank you all who offered advice.

[Peter Harris]

• Enfieldspares said,

Yes. Ken Davies did my first fitting at Northwood. At that time they didn't keep a record on their computers just gave you then paper. So when I went again in about 2015 or so I told them when I arrived although I'd had a fitting I'd not show it to them but they could guesstimate it and set the try gun up to what they thought it'd be. This time it was Nathan Dooley. He was within 1/8" or under correct to Ken Davies's old measurements. Slightly different, yes, on some as after sixty your physique changes.

Edited Monday at 16:58 by enfieldspares 

That should read Nathan Dudley

[Westley]

On 04/11/2022 at 07:16, Daveo26 said:

You’ve hit the nail on the head, those are my fears.

id think I’d prefer to spend money just shooting not trying to learn the perfect technique.

maybe it’s something I’ll revisit one day.

thank you all who offered advice.

UNLESS you have acquired some degree of 'perfect technique ' all of the gunfit is irrelevant. 

I had a S x S  Westley Richards fitted by the makers in the late 70's. I have NEVER shot so well with any other gun. I only use it for game shooting, which is now 3/4 days a season. My physique has changed dramatically since then, but the gun still fits. ( take note all who say gun fit needs to be checked due to change in physique) I have shot 1 day this game season, the gun not having been out since last January, I still averaged 2 for 1 using it. Yes, I shoot clays at least once per week, using O/U or a semi auto, but my gun mounting is exactly the same, regardless of which gun I use. I am now nearer 80 than 70 have had a couple of minor strokes and a few other ailments to boot, BUT my gun mounting has remained constant throughout. During lockdown, I was doing 5 minutes a day practising gun mount, both in a mirror and the ceiling and wall joints. All of this adds to cement the same gun mount EVERY  time.

[Scully]

32 minutes ago, Westley said:

UNLESS you have acquired some degree of 'perfect technique ' all of the gunfit is irrelevant. 

I had a S x S  Westley Richards fitted by the makers in the late 70's. I have NEVER shot so well with any other gun. I only use it for game shooting, which is now 3/4 days a season. My physique has changed dramatically since then, but the gun still fits. ( take note all who say gun fit needs to be checked due to change in physique) I have shot 1 day this game season, the gun not having been out since last January, I still averaged 2 for 1 using it. Yes, I shoot clays at least once per week, using O/U or a semi auto, but my gun mounting is exactly the same, regardless of which gun I use. I am now nearer 80 than 70 have had a couple of minor strokes and a few other ailments to boot, BUT my gun mounting has remained constant throughout. During lockdown, I was doing 5 minutes a day practising gun mount, both in a mirror and the ceiling and wall joints. All of this adds to cement the same gun mount EVERY  time.

This this this and this! Good for you. 
Didn’t someone say to golfer Colin Montgomery how lucky he was to be able to play golf as well as he can? To which he replied ‘ It’s funny, but the more I practise the luckier I get’. 🙂

A mate puts his 20 bore Browning in its cabinet following the last day of the season, and there it stays until the first day of the next. Then he wonders why he can’t hit anything. It always comes as a surprise to him when he hits something, whereas most folk I shoot with are surprised when they miss. 
 

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

"most folk I shoot with are surprised when they miss."
 

Not me though. Too many surprises are stressful. I'd rather relax and treat it as the norm. 

[Scully]

10 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Not me though. Too many surprises are stressful. I'd rather relax and treat it as the norm. 

😄

[Walker570]

Only just noticed this, so a bit late to the party. Only had two guns fitted for me.  My grandfathers BSA 12 gauge and my Army & Navy 16 gauge.  The 16 gauge came first because the stock needed replacing and I had a top pro stocker set it up for me.  The BSA came as a result as I asked if he could fit the BSA to me.  It took about five weeks because that gun was circa 1945 ish and he heated and treated it then put it in a vice and each morning gave it a tweek, slowly bending it to my fit. I shoot right to centre eye, both eyes open. It didn't break as expected and is still in use today.  My advice is YES!! if you have the cash then get a REPUTABLE fitter to have a look. It works because mentally you know the gun fits, but wear the basic clothing you expect to wear on the day.

I'm not a bit surprised I miss these days but did have that situation 50 years ago.  Both occasions not the guns fault.

[Westley]

3 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Only just noticed this, so a bit late to the party. Only had two guns fitted for me.  My grandfathers BSA 12 gauge and my Army & Navy 16 gauge.  The 16 gauge came first because the stock needed replacing and I had a top pro stocker set it up for me.  The BSA came as a result as I asked if he could fit the BSA to me.  It took about five weeks because that gun was circa 1945 ish and he heated and treated it then put it in a vice and each morning gave it a tweek, slowly bending it to my fit. I shoot right to centre eye, both eyes open. It didn't break as expected and is still in use today.  My advice is YES!! if you have the cash then get a REPUTABLE fitter to have a look. It works because mentally you know the gun fits, but wear the basic clothing you expect to wear on the day.

I'm not a bit surprised I miss these days but did have that situation 50 years ago.  Both occasions not the guns fault.

It took Westley's 2 weeks of my gun stock being clamped, to prevent it springing back.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Westley

[Gordon R]

Quote

Didn’t someone say to golfer Colin Montgomery how lucky he was to be able to play golf as well as he can? To which he replied ‘ It’s funny, but the more I practise the luckier I get’. 🙂

Gary Player was the man in question, not Montgomery.

[Scully]

8 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Gary Player was the man in question, not Montgomery.

I stand corrected. 👍

[Westley]

10 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Gary Player was the man in question, not Montgomery.

I'm like that with my fishing  !   😄

[Walker570]

13 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Gary Player was the man in question, not Montgomery.

BUT some never seem able to learn ...... that means no disrespect brcause it is so annoying that some folk have an inate abiltity to do things where others struggle.

Whatever level of capability you can still enjoy yourselves, just accept you are not world champion staus.

[Jega]

An old boy gave me some sound advice many many years ago regarding gun fit .

Now ,if you get into a strange car for the first time ,what are the first things you do ?

Alter the seat position ,move the mirrors ,in modern cars you can even adjust the steering wheel position .Could you drive it without doing any of these things ,

yes of course you could but it's so much better when you make it suitable for yourself . Pretty much the same with guns ,after a while you can get used to anything but why not make it a bit easier for yourself by starting with a gun that has a half decent fit .

Along with this get a decent coach for a few lessons and your well on your way to having a really good experience .

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Jega